a good scapegoat | an inappropriate rebuke
This is a very strange post from Ken Silva over at CRN. Apparently, evangelist Brian Culver found an inappropriate bulletin from a girl back in his home town. Was the MySpace bulletin inappropriate? Very much so… but who does he blame? The parents? The school system?
The Seeker-Sensitive Church, of course! So he takes to opportunity to air some rather public and strong rebuke to a fellow pastor that he obviously knows:
PASTOR! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. YOU HAVE IGNORED SIN TOO LONG IN YOUR CHURCH. YOU HAVE TURNED A BLIND EYE FOR THE SAKE OF NOT OFFENDING ANYONE. DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO NOT CONFRONT SIN? LITTLE GIRLS SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH PROMOTING SEX ON THE INTERNET. (THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME IT HAS HAPPENED IN YOUR CHURCH!) HOMOSEXUAL BOYS FIND NOTHING WRONG WITH THEIR LIFESTYLE. ADULTS THINK IT IS OKAY TO FLIP PEOPLE OFF AND JUST SAY, “I AM SO HAPPY THAT GOD FORGIVES ME WHEN I DO THAT!” WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY CHURCH DISCIPLINE IN YOUR CHURCH, YOU ARE OPENING THE DOOR FOR WEAK AND WIMPY CHRISTIANS TO LEAD THE FLOCK. YOU HAVE A HOMOSEXUAL BOY IN YOUR YOUTH GROUP AND ALL OF THE OTHER YOUTH ARE FINDING IT AS AN ACCEPTABLE THING.
he later says (yes, in all caps)
PASTORS! DO YOU NOW SEE WHY TELLING JOKES AND A BUNCH OF STORIES IS NOT THE WAY TO GO FOR A CHURCH SERVICE? DO YOU NOW SEE THAT GOD’S WORD IS TRUE AND IT IS A LAMP UNTO OUR FEET. IT WILL DIRECT OUR PATHS. WE DO NOT NEED MULTI-MEDIA AND HIP HOP MUSIC AND A LOT OF STARBUCKS COFFEE AND DONUTS. WHAT WE NEED IS GOOD OLD FASHIONED BIBLICAL PREACHING. PREACHING GOD’S LAW AND THE NEED TO REPENT OF SINS. WE NEED TO HEAR HOW TO PUT OUR TRUST AND FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR. WE NEED TO HEAR THE NEED TO BE OBEDIENT TO GOD’S WORD. AND WE NEED TO SEE PASTOR’S WHO ACTUALLY DO ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!! THAT IS WHAT IS MISSING. OBEDIENT PASTORS!!!!!!!! THEY SAY THE RIGHT THINGS, BUT THEY DO NOT DO THE RIGHT THINGS. IF YOU HAVE SIN OPENLY DISPLAYED IN YOUR CHURCH BY A LEADER OR EVEN A MEMBER, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE CHURCH DISCIPLINE. THE IDEA IS TO SET THEM APART SO THAT THEY CAN REPENT OF THEIR SINS AND COME BACK INTO THE BODY. YOUR WORDS ARE NOT EDIFYING THE BODY IF YOUR ACTIONS ARE NOT CONSISTENT WITH SCRIPTURE. HOW MANY PEOPLE DID YOU WITNESS TO TODAY? ARE YOU FULFILLING THE GREAT COMMISSION. MOST PASTOR’S I KNOW, THE ANSWER IS A BIG AND TERRIBLE NO!
I am not too sure how he connected one girl’s personal MySpace bulletin with pastors telling jokes, drinking Starbucks and listing to hip-hop. I am definately unclear as to how he could jump to the subject of homosexual teenagers being accepted in a youth group.  However, I find it sad that these grown men find it appropriate to give such anonymous personal information and rebuke on a very impersonal blog. That’s up there with dumping your girlfriend via text-message.
I also find it amazing how these ODMs are able to connect practically anything with a seeker sensitive/emerging/purpose-driven church. If you asked this girl if what she wrote was wrong, she would more than likely reply with “yes.” But somehow all of this is not the parent’s fault, but the pastor’s (even though she know the biblical thing to do). I am amazed at the length these men and women will go to publicly call out fellow ministers, air their dirty laundry, and then connect any sin in the congregation to their preaching/ministry methods. If we went around exposing the sin in traditional churches, we might also be able to make some outlandish claims about the effectiveness of that method.
74 Comments(+Add)
“However, I find it sad that these grown men find it appropriate to give such anonymous personal information and rebuke on a very impersonal blog.”
My Space is anonymous? The church and pastor are anonymous?
Evidently you believe it is appropriate and scriptural for churches to teach sex ed and confront porn addiction. IOW churches have a mandate to meddle, but don’t blame the pastor for not meddling?
This is not an indictment on the church or anyone else in question. However it is another example of the flawed logic presented here. Where is Truthmatters when you need him/her?
I was just about to make a joke in all-caps about the above rant, until I read the actual post. I’m going to have to defend Mr. Culver on this one.
The girl was nine? Myspace, at least last time I checked, was for 14 and older, and probably for the very reason that bulletins, messages, and personal information do get passed around. It can be dangerous if one is naive and not careful. I’ll pray that the girl is okay and learns a lesson.
Second, Mr. Culver was probably shocked by the sight of this bulletin. I know when I see something that shocks me, that outrages me, that I think should not be happening, I tend to not think clearly and put the blame on something that may have little to do with it. I’m not saying that he wasn’t thinking rationally, but it does happen. From what I can tell, he was extremely concerned for the girl’s safety, and rightly so.
Pastors drinking coffee and listening to hip-hop may have little to do with it, but I’ll cut him some slack. I just hope the girl is okay.
Merry,
I agree that what the girl did was wrong and sad. There is no doubt about that.
However, he took the opportunity to put all the blame on a pastor that had little to nothing to do with all of this. He may have been thinking irrationally, but it is still inappropriate to give the public information he did about this pastor. It seems like he took advantage of the situation to write a scathing post about a seeker-sensitive pastor he has an issue with.
Nathan, yes, I agree that the random pastor bashing wasn’t necessary.
There’s a lot that we don’t know about the situation. We don’t know for sure if the girl has responsible parents in her life; it may be that her pastor is a parent figure or the main role model in her life. It could be that there is a connection between the situation and the complaints about the pastor, and the author wasn’t being very specific in his blog. Maybe he’ll clarify for us when everything is resolved.
That said, writing a blog about the situation right off the bat for everyone to read probably wasn’t the best choice.
Actually, Nathan the pastor is question is not a seeker sensitive pastor. You made an assumption that was not necessary. The rant is to ALL pastor’s. Kind of an every-man situation. I want all pastors to be thinking about this. IT is extremely dangerous when sin is not preached in the pulpit. Why do you assume that since sin is not preached, that it is seeker sensitive? Maybe that should tell you something. The parents of the girl are responsible for this. They do not go to church with her. They are completely out of the picture. Now, if you had seen the pictures that had been posted, you would realize that there is an adult somewhere taking inappropriate pictures. And yes, I do hold any pastor accountable for not preaching against sin. Do I want to wait until next week to do it? Sure, I could wait. And in the mean time, this little girl or other little children are in danger. I want all pastors to take a long hard look at their preaching methods, their preaching style and their message. I want them to realize that the Bible is the Word of God and is not left for their own interpretation. I will be contacting the police. But in the mean time, I want everyone to pray for this little girl. It is a pastor’s obligation to call the police if he thinks there is abuse. I doubt very much that the pastor spoken of will call police. So, I will do it. If you coming on here after attempting to post a comment on my blog, that would take away from the prayers for this girl, makes you happy, then go for it. For everyone else, please pray for this little girl.
God bless
Brian
So this very dangerous situation for a little girl is a good excuse for you to start screaming about pastors in general? Sounds to me like exploitation can be done by more than just taking pictures. I say, Shame on you.
that’s right, forget about the praying that I am requesting for this little girl. Forget about the fact that thousands of children every year are raped, abducted and abused and even killed. Forget the fact that pastors have a duty and a responsibility to preach God’s Word, all of it like sin and the need to repent. Had the pastor preached about sin and the dangers of it like he should have, then maybe she would have known not to do this. She obviously does not have parents who give a care. That’s right. forget about praying for the little girl. If you think that I was doing anything like exploiting this little girl, you are sadly mistaken. That’s right. forget about praying for this little girl. You pick on me for being shaken to the point of disgust and worry for this little girl’s safety, and yet, instead of offering prayer for her, it is better to spend your time picking apart every word I said. shame on you!
Brian,
Nobody’s criticizing you for caring about the girl – it’s your using her as a prop for your diatribe against her church.
- or all pastors, etc…
Caring about the girl: Good
Further exploitation of her for your own ends: Not so good…
Dude, you really have problems. You’re exploiting this girl! I don’t care if you call for prayer. Don’t worry I’m praying for the girl. I’m praying that whoever took her picture will go to jail and I’m praying that you’ll see who badly you used this girl for your own purposes. Your assumptions and conclusions are awful. Be careful you don’t fall off that self-righteous horse there. Those falls hurt.
Don’t feed the troll guys. Please.
Tim, you’re right. As an adult who was abused as a child by a pastor I know exploitation when I see it.
which is it? A specific person, or all pastors that you were calling out. No one is saying what the girl did was wrong. It was wrong to take the opportunity to push your agenda in the middle of this horrible situation. Again, hip-hop enjoying, Starbucks Drinking, donut eating ministers are completelty irrelevant to the situation. If anyone should be accused of taking away from the situation, it should be you.
If leaders don’t care for the flock, what do you expect? And in an age of cursing pastors and xxxchurch, why do you care about this?
*She is only following the standard she is given*
I say it is a wake up call.
We have no evidence that this girl’s message was a result of failure of her church’s leadership. None.l
All we have is Brian abusing this girl for his own ends…
What does this have to do with xxxchurch – a ministry that has lead MANY people out of the clutches of porn addiction and into the arms of their Savior? Nothing.
Tim,
Please understand I’m not saying that Brian shouldn’t have the right to call other pastors out if he feels that’s what he should do but to tie it to this girl is beyond reprehensible. He’s using this girl, too.
Uhm. I used to attend that girl’s church. I know what goes on there. That’s why we left. . .poor leadership, no standards, just smile and say everything’s alright…
No evidence? You speak of something you know nothing about…
Leadership sets the example. Or do you disagree?
This has to be one of the weirdest things I’ve seen. I fail to see how pastors are to blame for this.
I do think it is just plain stupid for any parents to allow a 9 y.o. girls to have a myspace page, but why are pastors to blame? If this guys knows her parents, he should just deal with them.
This seems to be a symptom of something I’ve seen in different churches. Some people really want pastor to be superman and take care of all their problems for them. A pastor can only do so much.
Tim,
The guy came here and said that it wasn’t one pastor he was ranting against it was pastors at large. Now, was he being dishonest when he said this
Do you honestly not think he’s exploiting this girl?
Tim Brown,
So you actually think this pastor set an example that said it was alright for 9 y.o. girls to post inappropriate messages on myspace? That just seems bizarre.
You and Brian might want to get on the same page then, since he explicitly said that “the parents of the girl are responsible for this”.
Which makes it that much more reprehensible that he would exploit this situation for his own ideological axe grinding.
Phil:
Read Eph 4:11,12. If they would really “equip the saints to do the work of the ministry” through preaching on sanctification, the holiness of God and obedience, you’d have more mature believers to do the work of the ministry… The pastor isn’t meant to be a “superman”. He’s supposed to be working himself out of a job by preaching, teaching and maturing the saints.
There is nothing…and I repeat nothing…wrong with saying “This has happened, this is wrong, and this is how to stop it.”
Tim:
I’m on the same page because it is the BIBLICAL page. I’ve already explained this. Read my posts.
You didn’t respond to my statement that there *IS* a connection between this and the church leadership, did you?
Tim Brown,
Even Jesus had Judas Iscariot serving under Him. Was Jesus responsible for Judas’ sin? Of course not, but yet you are somehow blaming this pastor for what seems to be a case of bad parenting. No wonder pastors our leaving the ministry in droves. They have to deal with this crap.
Uhm Phil? Judas did what he did in spite of the example he had before him, not as a result of it.
Next issue, please.
C’mon Tim R. & Joe – You’ve forgotten the ODM mantra:
You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs
And we don’t know if this was the case or not with this girl and her parents – let alone her pastor…
You’re selling out in order to grease your ideological knives…
My point exactly, Tim. I don’t see how anything a pastor could do could send the message that it was alright for this girl to do this. Please enlighten me.
The way I see it is this. Kids do stupid things. Period. The parents need to nip this in the bud, and hopefully they have.
THis doesn’t make sense at all. You’re not on the same page, because Brian blamed the parents and you’re blaming the church leadership.
*And we don’t know if this was the case or not with this girl and her parents – let alone her pastor…
You’re selling out in order to grease your ideological knives… *
Of course, of course. It can’t be that we really know the situation there, can it, being from that particular church and all. No no, you know better.
You can’t *sell out* if you never bought into a lie in the first place. Gentlemen, I had nothing to sell out. I’ve always taken this position.
My dad used to say that you can tell how a person operates by what he accuses you of… I think he was right.
Accuse away.
Just joined this conversation.
Since I’m a youth pastor I have a myspace account. It is not uncommon for spam bulletins and comments to go out because accounts get hacked.
I’ve seen some of the most perverse things that shocked me only to realize later someones account got hacked. My account got hacked and apparently I was offering “enhancement” pills to all my friends.
To echo the sentiment; Brian your rant is way off the tracks on this one. Axe grinding at it’s finest.
I just re-read this article, and I noticed this:
Frankly, I think that it should be considered a positive if a homosexual kid wants to be part of the youth group. Of course, we could continue to ostracize him more and more so he is pushed further into the arms of the gay community and a really harmful lifestyle. I’ve actually seen this happen, and it’s a very sad thing. Actually, the person I saw it happen to was a pastor’s kid.
This whole rant is just very sad.
I just went back to Brians site and checked out his blogroll. I understand completely now.
So which of you – Tim or Brian – is playing straight with the facts on the original article? Is the diatribe against pastors in general or a pastor in specific?
If it’s pastors in general (which Brian, the author, wrote), then all of the observations we’ve made are valid.
If it’s a pastor in specific, the Brian ought to repent of the misleading statement above, for starters. Even so, I’ve not seen a shred of evidence that this behavior was encouraged/ignored by the pastorship. Additionall, Brian has indicated that it’s the parents’ fault, which – in and of itself – validates the observation that he’s just using the girl, as well, for his own selfish ends…
Brian,
Do you know Brad Culver?
Also, I had to laugh at the links on your site Arminian today or is it Armenian Today?(which did not link) right next to the semi-pelagian hating Apprising Ministries.
Not making fun just thought it interesting.
iggy
Tim,
I have a very hard time believing any of this. In order for your whole far-fetched story to make out, all of the following would have to happen:
* the pastor approves of sexually explicit content
* the church (youth pastor, elders, pastor, members, etc.) would have had to never taught that things like this was wrong
* the girl would have to have NOT know this was a sin, and did this actually believing that what she was doing was ok.
* somehow a gay teenager was also involved
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that the pastor preached this stuff was ok. There is also ZERO correlation between this event and gay teenagers in a youth group. There is also ZERO correlation between drinking Starbucks and a 9 year-old posting sexually explicit bulletins. (that line made me laugh).
I see it a failure of Church and parents… and the community as a whole.
The exploitation of children is one of the saddest things to me.
I can understand Brian’s anger and shouting…
The other issue overlooked (maybe unless I missed it) is that these kids that are sexed up or exploited feel “different” than other kids. The gay kid in the youth group feels out of touch with the others and often fears not being accepted.
I see that acceptance of the person, not their sexuality, but as they are a person is one thing most miss. If one person loves and accepts that one child who was abuse or exploited, they will know not all adults (pastors included) will want them just for sex. Love makes the difference.
iggy
When I posted the post, I was ranting about an issue that is very serious. It was not my intention to expoit the little girl Not at all. I care deeply for her. I do not know her last name, nor do I know her parents. They never came to church. As for the pastor of her church, he allows sin to permeate within the church, even within the church walls. He has not repented and my anger is boiled out over to him and others like him who are not being the man of God that should be filling our pulpits. Yes, there is a relationship between all that I mentioned. Like I said, when a pastor, any pastor, allows sin to go unchecked, the damage is unmistakeable. The blame lies on parents who do not look over what their child is doing. In this case, the little girl lied about her age so the parents had no way of knowing. But at the same time, we expect our pastors to do and say the right things in church. When they do not react to sin in an appropriate manner, how can we expect the children (and adults for that manner) to also do the right thing. The end result was that this little girls life could have been in danger. Their are sick men who will lurk after little girls on the Internet. I wanted to put a stop to it before it got to that point. I just received this morning an email from myspace saying that her account has been closed. I am happy for that, but this issue still remains, she has a pastor who has consistently not done the right thing. There are no elders in the church as a checks and balance to ensure proper teaching is taking place. Without accountability, he just leads in a way so as not to offend people. I’m sorry, I am offended when the Word of God is not preached by a pastor. I am sorry you feel I am exploiting this little girl, my emotions got the best of me, I will admit that. The proper way of handling it would have been to just post the bit on praying for her and to wait a day or so, and put the rest in about the pastors. As a parent, and as a Christian, I would hope you can understand the anger, the pain and the frustration and the horror of thinking something might happen to someone you care about.
Brian, I think you’re wasting your time. As one poster stated, Paige would have been a Judas in any case. Nathan knows the facts of what our former pastor did and didn’t do, regardless of what we have witnessed.
And I thought I was hallucinating this morning when I heard a rooster crow “Any’scuse’lldoooo!”
No. Of course leadership has no correlation with the behavior of the followers…we know that.
Wow.
So the parents of a nine year old girl, who you don’t even know their last names, never attended church. Yet somehow you find a way to connect the pastor to all this?
Tell us one more time how you’re not axe grinding or exploiting a little girl to further your agenda. Because I seem to missing something.
Maybe not but he can certainly see axe grinding when it’s evident.
Tim,
Even if this is true, is a blog… in ALL CAPS… really the bet way to handle it?
Neil
Brian,
Your concern for the girl is admirable and shared by all – to contact the parents was a good thing. It’s connecting this to the pastor that raises the questions.
Please keep in mind that catch-phrases like “a pastor allows sin” – “does not preach the Gospel” – and the like are thoroughly abused on the web. ODM have taken biblical principles and abused them to the point that it’s impossible to trust such claims without knowing the specifics.
Neil
Tim Brown,
While Brian’s concern and explanations have been heart felt and admittedly a bit emotional – he has explained his position well.
Your comments on the other hand have been escalating and baiting. You are right, none of us know the situation in detail – but your telling us to take your word for it, when one of your first posts make a swipe at “cussing pastors” and “xxx.church” show you’re facts must be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.
You said Brian was wasting his time – I would say he was not… his posts added to the discussion. Your posts, on the other hand, probably were a waste of time since we cannot take such posts seriously.
Neil
Tim, – case in point…
Nathan did not claim to know better than you. You claim to know better, but show no evidence. And when Nathan does not just bow to your version you post this twist.
As for the Judas reference – here again, you take a general illustration and apply it specifically, beyond the intended use…
It’s suite clear that we are willing to engage in a discussion – that has been shown – but please, for the sake of all our time, please keep the discussion reasonable.
Neil
Tim,
I have absolutely no clue what your pastor did and did not do with anyone. This girl obviously comes from a very secular home with parents who would not go to church with their daughter. And you have never answered my question:
If asked, do you think this girl would know that what she did was wrong?
If she did (and my guess is she did), then this has absolutely nothing to do with the pastor. She was simply being disobedient. If she didn’t know, then we can look at if the pastor takes a stance against sexual sin (I am assuming he does). However, the primary responsibility lies on the parents.
I just found out a kid in my friend’s youth group is pregnant. It was a very conservative church. The pastor was a strong Calvinist who preached against everything, they practiced church discipline and they had strong discipleship. Despite all of that… the parents are blaming the church for not being more staunch on the subject.
We forget that teenagers will usually do some dumb things and say/write some even more stupid things. I know my teenage years were littered with some bad decisions. But to blame this on a church is crazy. This was obviously an opporutnity taken to rail this pastor and exploit the situation.
Brian,
thanks for being honest about your emotions. I just think that you need to be careful about when you rebuke and how you do it. A blog, for the whole world to see is not the appropriate place.
All I can say is that if there is a homosexual boy in the youth group, and there are sexually active kids there as well, and they have the attitude described, there is an issue in the pulpit.
If the preacher is doing his job, and preaching not just the love of God, but also the wrath of God, then sinners will either repent and come to faith in Christ, or they will leave the unfriendly confines of this church. Remember, Church is for believers…always has been. If people feel comfortable going to church while in their sins, they are worshipping in a den of demons.
Removing the little girl from the equation (since you seem to admit that the two issues are disconnected – especially if the girl’s parents do not belong to a church) , since it now seems you are dealing with one specific pastor, though including other hypothetical pastors like him, let’s examine your claims:
In your ALL CAPS diatribe, here’s what I find:
Are you suggesting initiating church discipline against a 9-year-old, or are you saying that the pastor promotes this behavior?
Is this an actual anecdote or hyperbole? Is the pastor aware of this behavior?
Is this your call for discipline against someone that is being unheeded (or possibly just in confidence per the first steps in Matthew 18)? Are you sure it’s a sin, or is it a matter of personal conviction (like drinking, smoking, or saying the word ‘darn’?)
Where else would you want a boy struggling with homosexual feelings? Who better to deal with this than the church? Are you party to any counseling of this boy, or do you know for a fact that he is not being counseled?
To this point, all of your accusations seem to be pretty pointed, and – like Paul’s admonition re: lawsuits – is the public forum the best place to address your disagreement?
Your second diatribe seems a bit more broadly brushed, but let’s look at your list to see what “permeating sin” exists there:
Actually, volumes of research show that adults learn best via teaching in the form of stories and word pictures, as these are more concrete than abstract concepts. The Bible itself, apart from some of the epistles, is incredibly narritive in nature, and a third of Jesus’ teaching is in parable/narrative format. Additionally, nowhere in the Bible is a “church service” formatted or modeled, so anything/everything we do in that regard is based upon tradition – primarily from the synagogue and the RCC.
From this, I assume you are advocating block expostion, which not even Paul practiced. Rather, when preaching to a God-fearing audience, he threaded together scriptural themes; and when preaching to an unbelieving audience, he used the evidence of creation or in ways understood within their culture.
There’s a HUGE logical fallacy here, but I wonder if you recognize it. To wit:
What exactly does Powerpoint have to do with the presence or absence of sound teaching? What exactly does musical style have to do with the presence or absence of sound teaching? What exactly does a coffee kiosk have to do with the presence or absence of sound teaching?
[Speaking of repentence: For whom is repentence beneficial? God or man - or both - and how?]
At the same time, it is important that games of gossip and plank-speck don’t become the function of the church, which an over-correction toward ‘discipline’ devolves toward. Additionally, I would be interested in what you consider “openly displayed” sins, as often personal preferences and convictions get substituted for biblical absolutes in this arena.
How many people did you show love and compassion to today? Are you fulfilling the greatest commandment? Not all are called to ‘evangelize’ 24/7 – even those who ‘preach’ (which in today’s lectionary, is more in line with ‘teaching’), but ALL are called upon to live love 24/7…
WOW – where to start…
So having a homosexual in the youth group is wrong? Since when is being a homosexual wrong? Homosexuality – the action – is wrong, but is the “orientation” or “temptation?” Did I miss the fact that this particular kid was committing homosexual acts? Are the heterosexual kids wrong for the temptation they do not act on as well?
Regarding sexual activity in general… I think it naive to say that If the preacher is doing his job, and preaching not just the love of God, but also the wrath of God, then sinners will either repent and come to faith in Christ, or they will leave the unfriendly confines of this church. Kinda like a President saying “We have NO homosexuals in our country…”
I suspect that you preach sin. I also suspect that people in your church still sin.
Neil
To anyone who regularly writes at CRNInfo:
Do you have a right to voice an opinion on this? In my opinion, yes, just as I have a right to speak up here about pastors and churches.
But I don’t understand why you think that you have the right to speak up about it.
I’ve been told over and over again that unless I attend someone’s church I have no business criticizing them.
This pastor (Brian) isn’t even writing books (as far as I know) or having his programs started in churches.
Brian has taken a personal situation that has brought home to him what he sees as a probable result of the reality of pastors not teaching kids that sexual sin isn’t something with which one should toy. None of us except Brian and Tim Brown really have any way to understand the inside story on how the girl’s church might play into this.
Are you justifying it being your business because he “attacked” another church and/or churches? Hasn’t just about every individual that I have personally questioned previously done some overt or implied “attacking” of other churches, ways of thinking, ways of ministry?
Why, by your own standards, do you feel like you have the right to not only discuss this but make judgements about it?
Amy,
God Bless you and your family. I believe you have misrepresented the facts. Even Brian came here and said he could have done this differently. Peace to you and yours.
Amy,
Most of the regular commenters and writers have been commenting and writing about the blog article itself, rather than trying to usurp the authority of the elders of that church by turning the internet into a bully pulpit.
Joe,
God Bless you and your family. I believe you have misrepresented the facts. Check the latest article in which you asked for God to bless me after telling me that the topic in question was
NONE
OF
MY
BUSINESS
Peace to you and yours.
(Sorry for the plagiarism.)
Tim,
So when someone comments on an article about you (as I did) it’s a “bully pulpit.” But when you all comment on an article, even judging a person’s motivations, it’s alright.
Not that I agree that the comments here are limited to comments about the article. Statements like “exploiting a little girl” sound rather personal, um bullying, to me. It’s as if you all are actually judging someone’s motivations.
The real difference in what has gone on with this article and what went on with the article about you and your church is that Brian actually interacted and tried to address your concerns instead of saying something about not conversing with people who are gnostics.
Tim Brown,
“My dad used to say that you can tell how a person operates by what he accuses you of… I think he was right.”
Reckon your quote applies to the way you talk to me, or just the way others talk to you and Brian?
The unrelated issues aside, you are correct that Brain made the connection between this 9 year old’s comments and the pastor of a church… subsequent posts have shown that this connection was tenuous at best.
Neil
I have some friends near Matthew, NC. Pretty this time of year.
you guys are a bunch of sad people…. just to let you know that i am the girls mother. I check her myspace every day or so. And yes what she posted was inappropriate for her to do but it was sent to her by a friend!!!! So she just reposted it. not understanding the meaning that some perverted adults would take it. There is nothing mentioned about sex it’s just how brian read it! Also if Brian had a problem having a myspace to talk to friend and family then why did he contact her on her birthday last year on her myspace. So there is something totally wrong with that. Just to let you know he is lying to you people he never talked to me about adding her like he claims. He also talks about one of her friends! And to let you all know that paige knows about all this…she is totally upset with all this that a man that she trusted from her church (until he got kicked out) is telling this about her and also there was nothing wrong with the pics. that where on there. Unless you think christmas pic and pics of her with her friends are bad!!! I dont know where he gets this from!!!! But if this is how he wants to spend his free time talking about this when he is not thinking like a 10 year old then I think he is one of those guys from the church that all parents should keep an eye on!!!!!!! As far as him contacting her parent I sent him an email and he didnt respond and I posted 2 bloggs on his site but again he is to scared to post those he wont let everyone else see those because he know he is wrong. ANd to use her name was just horrible!!!!!! He didnt need to post it. Also if he call the cops so be it we have nothing to hide. She is not the only 10 year old who is on here. Also she is never home alone so we know what she does. So he just needs to back off and let her and her friend be 10 year olds. Sorry but 10 year olds dont think that way. ONLY STUPID ADULTS WITH BRIAN BEING ONE OF THEM! HE HAS ONLY DELT WITH HER DURRING VBS SO HE HAS NO ROOM TO JUDGE ANYONE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!11
Neil,
None of us including Brian can fully understand all the influences that go into “making” a person do what they do. The fact is many pastors and other Christian leaders including Christian parents either don’t address, or treat sexual sin/enticement lightly- and it is something to weep about because many are hurt by being deceived by Satan in this area.
I can understand him making a connection between this girl’s behavior and her church – he may be right, he may be wrong. I think it would have been wise for him to separate the two issues on the internet as he himself said in conversation here, no matter what he personally felt about the situation.
But then what should it matter, what “I think,” since I don’t go to his church
Apparently, he doesn’t go to his church anymore, either – which would explain a WHOLE lot…
Lisa,
Nuff said…
iggy
Chris L,
May I suggest that before you and others start taking sides on this you could contact Brian and let him know he needs to respond to what Lisa has said. Seems like the Christian thing to do.
Amy,
If plagarizing helps you to feel good about yourself, then do it. Grace and peace to you.
Lisa,
For the record, we were trying to protect your daughter, which is why we called him out for exploiting her.
Joe,
I see you also enjoy plagiarizing. Paul.
Sweet. That puts me in good company.
Question:
Is it or is it not illegal for 10 year olds to use myspace?
amy,
It’s not illegal, and basically anyone with an email address can sign up.
I want to respond to what Lisa says…’
Comment from lisa
Time: January 31, 2008, 5:54 pm
you guys are a bunch of sad people…. just to let you know that i am the girls mother. I check her myspace every day or so. And yes what she posted was inappropriate for her to do but it was sent to her by a friend!!!! So she just reposted it. not understanding the meaning that some perverted adults would take it. There is nothing mentioned about sex it’s just how brian read it!
I admit, it is how I read it. I think if you asked 100 people, there are over 90 of them would agree with me that this could have been a very dangerous situation for a little girl.
Also if Brian had a problem having a myspace to talk to friend and family then why did he contact her on her birthday last year on her myspace. So there is something totally wrong with that.
Wishing someone happy birthday from church is not wrong. regardless of age.
Just to let you know he is lying to you people he never talked to me about adding her like he claims. He also talks about one of her friends!
I am not lying to anyone. The person I was talking about was not LIsa but a mother of her daughters best friend. It is her daughters best friend who enjoys evangelizing and we made sure she had some tracts so she could go out and do it.
And to let you all know that paige knows about all this…she is totally upset with all this that a man that she trusted from her church
yes, she trusted me and it is because of a mutual caring for her, that I did not want to see any chance at all that something bad could come from a post that could be construed as dangerous and inviting.
(until he got kicked out)
I left the church for a couple of reasons. This church has no elders. I was the prayer and praise leader. People got offended when I read Scripture from the pulpit. I read Scripture and told people we need to be obedient to God’s Word. Many in the church were very supportive and agreed with me. Unfortunately, the founding members of the church did not want Scripture read. They liked it the old way. don’t mention anything about sin and the need to repent. One of the founding members made a comment in Sunday School where she said, “I am glad that God forgives me every time I flip someone off.” We were all shocked when we heard that. The pastor was told about it and nothing was said or done about it. The homosexual boy is a son of one of the other founding members. (I agree, all people regardless of their sin is invited to come to church. They need to be there. The danger comes in when their sinful lifestyle starts to become accepted as normal and looked at with a worldview instead of from God’s perspective.) I asked each of the youth in the church, “why are you a Christian?” not a single kid could tell me. I asked them, “what does it take to go to heaven?” not a single kid could tell me. I brought this up in the adult Sunday School class and that we needed to keep our kids in our prayers. We needed to make sure they are equipped (especially those kids heading off to college). There is so much that no one knows about to this story. It has been mentioned before to concerned parties and nothing was ever done. My frustration comes out when I see kids doing and saying things that are not Christian. Sure if is normal for a little kid to do that. But it is not normal for a church to have no elders and to turn a blind eye to sin that is taking over inside the church. Prior to me reading Scripture during prayer time, I went up to the pastor before church even started and told him I felt compelled to read Scripture, I told him which one I was going to read. And he said, “go for it brother.” He gave me his full blessing. Then when he started getting complaints about it, he mentioned nothing to anyone about how he approved it. He just left me hanging there. I wanted nothing to do with a church that did not hold a high regard to Scripture and did not practice Church Discipline. So, no, I was not kicked out, I left on my own.
is telling this about her and also there was nothing wrong with the pics. that where on there.
When I first saw the pics, I saw nothing wrong with them. Initially, they were just your typical little girl pics. But when I read the post that she did, and then looked at the pictures, it bothered me. Yes, they are still innocent pictures but when a dirty man out in cyber world sees them and puts that along with the message she posted, it is an invitation for trouble. When you read my blog, you will see that I did not accuse the parents, my concern was for some strange guy to show up at their door. My concern was that some stranger would take the opportunity to contact her. I do not know the parents at all. I only know Paige from church and more directly from her friend at church. I was only looking out for her safety as any parent would do for a child.
Unless you think christmas pic and pics of her with her friends are bad!!! I dont know where he gets this from!!!!
I hope I made my point about the pics above in the previous part.
But if this is how he wants to spend his free time talking about this when he is not thinking like a 10 year old then I think he is one of those guys from the church that all parents should keep an eye on!!!!!!!
I made an honest attempt to try to keep something bad from happening to this little girl.
As far as him contacting her parent I sent him an email and he didnt respond and I posted 2 bloggs on his site but again he is to scared to post those he wont let everyone else see those because he know he is wrong.
The email was very rude and calling me a liar when that is not the case is not helpful.
ANd to use her name was just horrible!!!!!! He didnt need to post it.
I used a first name of a little girl. No last name was used. No pastor name or church name was used either. No friend name was used.
Also if he call the cops so be it we have nothing to hide. She is not the only 10 year old who is on here. Also she is never home alone so we know what she does. So he just needs to back off and let her and her friend be 10 year olds.
Ten year olds should be ten year olds. They should not be posting things that can get them in some serious, dangerous trouble. I am not saying it is your fault. I am just saying that kids don’t know the repercussions of what they do sometimes. If my son, when he was ten had posted something like this, I would have wanted someone to tell me about it. For a little girl, it was extremely dangerous and I did not know your last names. So I contacted the pastor, because I knew he knew Paige. I contacted the mom of her best friend. I attempted to contact Paige to tell her to remove it for her own safety. Every thing I did was out of true and deep concern for her safety. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it differently, but like I said before, my emotions and my fear of something happening to her took over. I hope everyone can understand that.
Sorry but 10 year olds dont think that way.
Back when I was a kid, you are right, I don’t think many kids did think that way. Unfortunately, with the influence of Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and TV in general, they have a lot more knowledge about this sort of thing, than I ever did when I was their age.
ONLY STUPID ADULTS WITH BRIAN BEING ONE OF THEM! HE HAS ONLY DELT WITH HER DURRING VBS SO HE HAS NO ROOM TO JUDGE ANYONE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!11
The above comment is the type that I did not post on my comments. I understand your anger, but I also hope you can understand the safety issue your child was in. It only takes a moment for something bad to happen to a little child while walking home from school. I did not want that to happen. I still pray for her that she will grow up in a safe and loving environment (not saying that she isn’t now), but that she always has the love of God surrounding her. I hope and pray that she will make good decisions in her lifetime and that when she does mess up, like we all do, that God will protect her so that no harm will come to her.
if anyone wants to check on the truthfulness of what I am saying, I just remembered, that on my blog, if you look under my personal profile, there is a link to listen to the revival I held back on Oct 21, 2007. In this revival, I spoke about some of the things that happened in the church just three weeks earlier. I think you will see where my heart is and find that I am being truthful here.
thanks and God bless
till His nets are full
Brian
The story gets shadier and shadier… you STILL take the time to rail the church… unbelievable. I think the case is closed now. While I don’ think that you lied, I see that you completely mishandled the situation and took advantage of it to make a point. On top of that, you have soiled the name of Christ with this family.
Lisa,
I am sorry that you have had to go through this. We wish to extend you love and help with whatever you need. Just let us know.
Before we get any deeper between Brian and Lisa, maybe we should bow out.
Lisa, I hope you see the difference in attitudes between the various folks that post on this blog.
Neil
thank you nathan…for your support in this matter. and to Brian I understand your concern but the only people that could see her pics. were people on her friends list! But anyway I hope this is all settled and we dont have to hear about this anymore! Again I check her myspace daily to see who see talks to and accepts as a friends.