WOTM also made a video with Kirk Cameron and a banana…

That’s gotta count for something.

John Chrisam before you start hitting your caps lock button, and screaming about hypocrites and snakes, please notice the linkage here directly relates to the thread

Have you ever listened to that show?

So a 25 foot phallus does good things for the name of God?

PB,
So you think God made “dirty” parts of our bodies?

I think that is the issue addressed and part of the problem in porn addiction… I see that God made us in His Image as as far as i see, “it was good”…

iggy

I think Ray Comfort is actually pretty cool… something about a short Scottish man screaming at people on street corners cracks me up!

iggy

Todd’s show is called Way of The Master Radio. If they want to distance themselves from him, they should.

What? No, until they do, his fruit is their fruit. It’s what makes a team a team. Let’s say that Chris L invited Todd to write here. I’d stop because I don’t want my fruit to be tossed with his into a messy, ugly salad. The argument that they do some good somewhere is weaker than a generic paper towel against a 5y.o.’ s vomit. It just doesn’t wash. What’s an acceptable ratio? For every 50 people they share the love of Jesus with, this guy shares the hate of Satan with say….25? Is a good enough ratio? What if he offends more than they share with? What if it’s 7 to 1?
There are all sorts of jerks out there who do good things. Every once in a while C?N comes up with a truly original piece that has logic. It seems to me that you are saying that these guys really do care about evangelism (something I’m not contending against) so there affiliation with Todd Friel should be mitigated. How does that work? What if they started associating with Ken Silva? What if they gave him a show? Wouldn’t his fruit be a part of theirs? Have you seen their banana video? It was sad. In a bad way.

Hmmm it is all God’s fruit… as no man gets credit for God’s works… only Christ gets credit for His works in us… we are saved by Grace not works..

So, if someone gets saved through Todd, it is God… through Ken, it is God, through me, it was and is always God.

The issue becomes when people teach (like on Way of The Master) that “fruit” is people’s salvation… meaning that the fruit I bear is those I got into the Kingdom… It is not. It is the foolishness of Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit that saves us all.

Just my 2 cents
iggy

Let’s talk about Ray Comfort for a moment. Have you seen his article where he seems to deliberately spell Muslim in a way to offend? I’m quoting this brilliant piece of scholarly material where he so eloquently demonstrates what Jesus meant when he said to love our enemies. This is direct quote stuff. Find it all here.

Some of the atheists that are part of this blog are pretty nasty. So, I have decided to return a bit of the fire (in love, of course)….
My new theory is that perhaps atheists evolved from the chicken, because they not only have chicken characteristics–a head, eyes, mouth, skin, neck, heart, earlobes and legs (homology structures), but they also have the chicken’s tendencies–they are chicken livered. They hang around Christians like annoying little bugs hang around light, trying to inject their poison whenever they can….

Maybe this sounds more like Jesus

You wouldn’t dare, because you are chicken-livered. You know that they are not like Christians. Despite the “anonymity” of your little chicken coop, they would come after you to lop off your head. And when they find you, you would fall on your knees and be praying to God for help, quicker than I can move a fly swat . . . and I’m pretty quick. So, think about what you are doing, and think about how much you value your life. Then think about what we are telling you.

Ray Comfort does not represent any Jesus I read about in the Bible. Tim’s right, let’s look at some fruit. Ray’s stinks.

B-b-b-b-but he’s Scottish… and short and yells…. it-t-t-t’s funny…

iggy

He is Scottish and short and yells at people… and it is funny!

It is like a Simpson’s episode!

iggy

First of all, Ray Comfort is from NEW ZEALAND…

His accent is Australian-like. Ig, I’m lookin at you on that.

Secondly, Joe M, I found what you said about him to be increddibly judgemental, based not on knowledge of the man, but based on isolated instances of his sin. You should know better because we rail against this stuff all the time. Ray does do great evangelism, from time to time, and credit is due where it’s due. You aren’t God and don’t know exhaustively his “fruit”. Perhaps he was overboard in his quote there, but then again, have you done any better or worse? I think your comment against him right above is evidence of something, at least. Not saying I wouldn’t do wrong like that either, or haven’t.

I’m just saying, pull back the reigns a bit, your comments were kinda ODMish.

I’m sure if we took little snippets of your life, you wouldn’t represent Jesus for jack-fruit either. But what’s the overall story, huh?

Love…Joe C

….I declare fatwah on you Iggy.

In love though.

Alaa la la la la la la la !!!

Joe

So a 25 foot phallus does good things for the name of God?

Perhaps as much as a group of lying midwives, a burning bush, a staff that turns to a serpent, a sea that divides, frogs from heavan, locusts, a river that turns to blood, and meat and bread from heaven for 40 years. I’m sure there are more in the bible I figured the book of Exodus would illustrate the point.

Many of those things mentioned above were to get peoples attention on God.

Before anyone starts to rant about how God can’t use a 25 foot inflatable penis I will say that I personally don’t believe “Open-Air” preaching is all that beneficial. But at the end of the day I truly believe that “we should become all things to all men so that we might win some”.

If it takes Todd Friel denigrating people or Craig Gross to inflate a 25 foot penis so that people will come to the full and saving knowledge of Christ than more power to them. I have issue when one brother openly attacks another brother for his method.

As Craig would say “Everything short of Sin” should be used.

Hmmmmm… I guess I didn’t read that clause in Paul or Jesus’ writing that in order to “do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”, that was limited to spreading the gospel and that any attempt to improve society, in general, was wrong…

So I wonder why so many Christians (myself included) get so worked up about trying to stop abortion. After all, if those women who choose to abort their babies don’t accept the gospel, then what does it matter?

So guys, how many kittens have you killed today?

Tim,

For clarification, I’m still speaking to you in love.

This is really simple.

30 Foot Penis = Not the Gospel (probably sinful) and God has NOT promised to give faith to those who see one.

One Minute Video Showing Puppets Masturbating and having Sex = Not the Gospel (sinful) and God has NOT promised to give faith to those who see one.

Message about Dangers of Porn = Not the Gospel (Commendable Message but it won’t turn a sinner into a saint) and God has NOT promised to give faith to those who hear this message.

The message that you are sinner and that Christ died for you sins as your substitute on the Cross = The Biblical Gospel and God HAS promised to give faith through the preaching of this message.

A Christian Church that rescues people from porn but doesn’t preach the Gospel isn’t really a “Christian” Church and the fruit of their ministry cannot be called fruit of the Holy Spirit.

If I were addicted to porn and your church helped me break the addiction but I still went to hell because you never actually told me the REAL good news then ultimately I wouldn’t believe that you’d done me ANY favors.

People who never look at porn are still going to hell because they don’t trust in Christ for their salvation. Jesus Christ commanded His church to go into the world and make disciples. He did not say to go an rescue people from porn. Along the way there will be those who will be ‘rescued from porn’ but it will be because they’ve heard the gospel, been given faith, sanctified and discipled in the one true faith.

Should we reach out to pornstars? ABSOLUTELY. But we need to reach them with the Gospel and call them to repentance.

Chris L,

The problem with XXXChurch is precisely the fact that they are looking for NEW and INNOVATIVE ways to combat porn.

They need chuck the gross and offense talk and gimicks and preach the Word and let God do what he’s promised to do. It is God who turns a pornstar into a saint not us and our methods.

Tim,

You’re creating a false dichotomy that neither XXXChurch nor myself (nor anyone here as far as I can tell) buy into.

Help me understand what you just wrote. What exactly is the False Dichotomy that I’m making?

Chris R,

So when God made you He made “dirty”parts?

I think you miss that God made man and stated “it is good”… on that same day.

God made us and gave us all our body parts. The message is that we are not to abuse ourselves.

Also, they have moved on from that… and if it was a mistake so be it… I bet you never made a mistake in your life….

I have see that they have made incredible inroads in the porn industry and people are getting out of that industry… and you just judge them as they save people from hell?

I wonder… God told one prophet to marry a whore… you would have judged him for that… God told another to walk naked around the city, and again I bet you would have judged him for that! You are like Michal daughter of Saul who had disdain for David as he danced before the Lord.

Instead of insults and attacking them… how about praying for them and talking to them to understand where they are coming from and how you can help them do a better job?

iggy

Help me understand what you just wrote. What exactly is the False Dichotomy that I’m making? – Chris R.

I’ll address this question with the hope that you are really seeking an answer.  I’ll use the BF to help delineate an outline – not to “yell.”

You have created a false dichotomy between the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. You have said that helping people come out of porn is a worthless ministry if they do not come to Christ. This is not true, and it is a false dichotomy.

You have also created a false dichotomy between method and message. You have said all that we need to do is preach the Word. “Preach” is the method, “Word” is the message. The message stays the same. The method changes. The method is subjective and relative, the message is objective and absolute.

You have also created a false dichotomy of application. You said they rescue people from porn but don’t preach the Gospel – when in fact rescuing is part of proclaiming the Gospel. You are not only ignoring the Great Commandment; you are reducing the Great Commission to making “converts” as opposed to “disciples.” Rescuing from porn may very well be the first step in making a disciple.

If you want to argue that you do not like their style or their methods – hey that’s fine… in some cases we’ll agree. But when you set up these false dichotomies to claim that they are not doing Gospel work – you are not only setting up false dichotomies -you are reducing the Gospel to merely accenting to a set of facts… and it is so much more.

Neil

Changed lives is not the standard by which we judge a Christian ministry. Repentance and believe in the True Biblical Gospel is. - Chris R.

Another false dichotomy.

Neil

Neil,

I personally know a few who’ve had their ‘lives changed by Alcoholics Anonymous. These are people who are now sober AND these are people who consider themselves to be ’spiritual people’ thanks to AA. BUT, not one of them believes the Biblical Gospel. Not one of them considers themselves to be Christians. As a result I’ve spent time sharing the gospel with them in word and deed. Yet, none of them has faith in Christ. I pray that will change.

If Christ returned today none of them would make it. They’d all go to hell.

So I don’t think I am making ANY false dichotomies when I say that ‘changed lives’ is NOT the standard that the church is being judged by.

Chris Chris Chris…

You keep saying…”their methods contradict the lifestyle that scripture calls Christians to”

I’d like to hear more about this. Can we get a concise definition of this lifestyle that, since you exhaustively know these people, know they don’t live in?

Thanks bro

Joe

XXXChurch is effective in ministry getting people out of porn

So is Way of the Master. Slaying the Dragon is a fantastic message regarding that.

But Way of the Master is more effective in getting the Gospel out in fullness. Getting people out of porn is important, but only part of the battle. People can be clean from pornography, but they can wind up in Hell anyway, because they have not had all their sin atoned for. They have not come under the propitiation of Christ’s sacrifice. While they may be clean now, when were all their past sins paid for?

I say, present the Gospel so they can repent of all of their sins.

And the Ron Jeremy commercial- did you al miss the fact that he said that ‘porn was for conscenting adults’ in other words, it is okay for adults to sin, just not kids.

I personally know a few who’ve had their ‘lives changed by Alcoholics Anonymous…

Not a relevant example since they do not claim to be Christian.

lol…wow…

Both of ya should step back from the personal comments. Chris, I invite you to address my post where I explicitly showed three examples of you setting up a false dichotomy.

Neil

Neil,

It certainly is a relevant example. Their lives were ‘changed’.

You said I created a ‘false dichotomy’. But I didn’t.

I can even put you in touch with a few people whose lives have been changed by Joel Osteen. He preaches about ‘a jesus’. He preaches ‘a gospel’. He’s ‘changing lives’ and he’s also sending people to hell.

That is my point. XXXChurch may be changing lives. To which I would say, “Big Deal”.

If they are changing lives through the Biblical Gospel and are just helping to polish the brass on a sinking ship then they aren’t doing anything for God’s Kingdom.

The Biblical gospel doesn’t turn pornstars into ex-pornstars. It turns a sinner into a saint (one who repents of ALL sins and trusts in Christ and is clothed in His righteousness).

The Biblical gospel is practically non-existent at XXXChurch’s website and in their messages. That is even more offensive to me than their puppet videos and 30 foot weiner.

Chris, maybe this will help you out…but this is a false ditchomy:

The Biblical gospel doesn’t turn pornstars into ex-pornstars. It turns a sinner into a saint (one who repents of ALL sins and trusts in Christ and is clothed in His righteousness).

Just so you know what one looks like…

“The Biblical gospel is practically non-existent at XXXChurch’s website and in their messages. ”

So you’re saying it’s there?

Grace

Joe

If they are changing lives through the Biblical Gospel and are just helping to polish the brass on a sinking ship then they aren’t doing anything for God’s Kingdom. - Chris R.

ARRRRGH – again you insert a false dichotomy… you say “and are just helping to polish ” – this is a false dichotomy you have inserted

- they are not JUST polishing…

-they are not trying to change lives WITHOUT changing hearts

- they are not fulfilling the Great Commandment WITHOUT also fulfilling the Great Commission

You are the one who keeps saying they are ONLY doing the one – they are trying to do both!

That is you false dichotomy

That is how you are reducing the Gospel.

Neil

And the Ron Jeremy commercial- did you al miss the fact that he said that ‘porn was for conscenting adults’ in other words, it is okay for adults to sin, just not kids. – PB

I did not miss it, I just assumed that would be the opinion of a pornstar…

(and if someone responds that xxxchurch is thereby agreeing with him, that porn is acceptable, I’ll not respond since it’s obviously not true)

Neil,

My point about XXXChurch is that if they are not preaching the Biblical gospel then they are NO BETTER than AA regardless of whether or not they believe in ‘a jesus’.

Again the Biblical Gospel it is practically non-existent on the XXXChurch site and it is completely missing from their on-line messages.

Tim,

Nice try.

1. You guys are always complaining that the ODM’s miss subtle nuances. Let me nuance this for you. I am not Ingrid, I am not Ken, I am not Steve Camp, I am not Mike Corely, I am Not WOTM, I am not Ken Samples, I am not Todd Friel, I am Not Hank Hanagraff. I am Chris Rosebrough.

2. The comment section that you dug up seems to have something missing. Want to know what it is? It’s missing evidence of ME personally ATTACKING the people of XXXChurch.

Where as, I can literally point people to some of the most vicious and personal attacks that they’ve ever seen and the comment would actually have YOU as the author.

See the difference Tim?

Again – All y’all – please knock off the personality expose and stick to the issues…

Neil,

Sorry but your example does not put any of my points to rest.

How many clicks does it take to get you to see a ‘gospel’ presentation that isn’t even ON their site but on a DIFFERENT ministry’s site? Two? Three?

You’re grasping at straws there.

XXXChurch is fighting porn with their own version of smut and porn. Those methods do not fall under ‘Christian Liberty’.

And the Gospel is missing from their messages. – Chris R.

I will grant you that some their methods may, and I say may, be unappropriate… but I’m more careful to judge another man’s servant.

Saying that they do not present the Gospel is a false statement.

Neil

Neil,

Sorry but your example does not put any of my points to rest.

How many clicks does it take to get you to see a ‘gospel’ presentation that isn’t even ON their site but on a DIFFERENT ministry’s site? Two? Three?

You’re grasping at straws there.

OK – so now we have reduced the complaint to the fact that it takes two full clicks to find a salvation presentation and that is links another site and is not resident on their own.

Are you really saying that their ministry does not present the Gospel because the pages reside at another web domain?

Neil

I think a major problem in this discussion is that Chris R. doesn’t understand what a false dichotomy is. If by chance that in a very basic educational sense he does understand, then he is unable to see what that looks like in a real conversation. The number of you that have attempted to explain and show the false dichotomies in Chris’ statements have done a fine job.

Chris R. – Here’s the deal. What you have seen of the work of xxxChurch is a part of their effort to “love their neighbors.” I know of no healthy, life-changing ministries that “preaches the full gospel” every time they do anything. I also know of no healthy, life-changing ministry that preaches the gospel without showing their love for their neighbors.

Here’s another important thought: God’s love, grace, and mercy does not extend so far as to make anybody believe. Our service is not to make anybody believe but to display in our own lives and show to others God’s love, grace, and mercy. The point of xxxChurch’s ministry is not to be crude, or even to eradicate pornography, the point of their ministry is to help grow (and help other churches, ministries, and individuals do likewise) healthy, mature, disciples of Christ. They believe that many christians are not living healthy mature lives because of a fear of talking about and dealing with sexual sins. BTW, those Christians include the ones commiting the sins, and the rest of the church unwilling to restore them gently. Our desire is for all people (this includes those arlready “in Christ” and those yet to be “evangelized”) to be presented to Christ on the last day as a pure and complete (read mature) bride. This is hard to do when we don’t want to restore people to a healthy relationship with God but are more interested in judging, condemning, hating on, criticizing, and otherwise showing others that they cannot place their trust in us because we have not shown them the love of God.

Neil,

Sorry but your example does not put any of my points to rest.

How many clicks does it take to get you to see a ‘gospel’ presentation that isn’t even ON their site but on a DIFFERENT ministry’s site? Two? Three?

You’re grasping at straws there.

Further more, it is not an example, it is a report on an experiment. You said the Gospel was practically absent from their site, I figured I’d see for myself. Starting from their front page, at the top, in a very very prominent position I made three clicks and in a matter of seconds found a Gospel presentation.

This is not an example – it is what I found.
It is not grasping at straws… it is showing that what you said is not true.

Neil

Christian,

I understand your belief that I am making a false dichotomy. I actually understand it and I disagree with your position.

If you are really interested in presenting people as a pure bride in Christ then you would be wise to do that through the gospel not the law.

Through the Gospel we learn that we are declared holy in God’s site through the perfect and active righteousness of Christ which is given to us as a gift. I am holy and perfect in God’s eyes because of Christ not my keeping of the law.

If you are trying to effect purity in people’s lives through the law then they will NEVER be pure enough because the law demand PERFECTION.

Rom. 3:21   But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

Gal 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Gal. 3:1   O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

At least the ODM seems to be keeping hands busy and people on this website so that there is no kitten killing.

…there are some serious problems with their methods and messages and those cannot be ignored and must be debated and discussed with the hope that there would be repentance and a change of ways on their part. – Chris R.

Chris R.

I appreciate the tone we have maintained though this flurry. Thanks for that. It has been good.

When you get to the point of criticizing them for linking to a salvation presentation instead of hosting it themselves… it is really hard to take you seriously.

When you keep driving a wedge between making disciples and loving our neighbor… it is hard to take you seriously.

When you turn my saying we should abide by Jesus’ command to love into preaching the law… it is hard to take you seriously.

I need to move on soon. If you respond quickly I may still be here to respond – if not… I’m need to sign-off for now.

Neil

Pastorboy, I don’t know if I’ve gotten the full blunt of your humor comments, but they did make me laugh.

Chris, where was I talking about the law? I never said that not watching porn would make somebody pure. I’m talking about the command to restore our brothers who have fallen (Galatians 6:1-2). But since you keep bringing up the Law, you seem to misunderstand that we still have a law to follow, the law of Christ. We are not saved by the Law, but we obey God because we are IN Christ.

Chris R.,

No one is claiming that by stopping a porn addiction, you are saving someone’s soul. Or do you see no distinction between special grace and common grace? That the only way to effect positive change in someone’s life is for them to follow Christ?

I have a dichotomy for you then. Either you would have to deny that people stop using drugs, abusing alcohol, looking at porn, etc., apart from explicitly following Christ (which strikes me as a dubious claim, empirically) or you would have to claim those things have no value at all.

Is it truly meaningless when a non-Christian gets sober, or stops cheating on his wife, or stops abusing his daughter? Do those things have no value at all?

If a non-Christian friend told you he sobered up, would you rejoice?

For a first-timer, rich, you’ve spoken well.

Just…be ready to be ripped by those who disagree with you.

Standard operating procedure. Nothing, personal, just business. At least until it becomes personal.

Rich,

They [xxxchurch's methods] are sensual, unbiblical and do not glorify God.

As noted above, this particular item (the phallus) was probably not the best means of calling attention to a problem. Regardless, many of the things X3 have done have been effective. A few failures out of many tries do not create an entire failure…

There are many who struggle with this particular temptation and sin, and the church has primarily turned a blind eye to it (or taken a simple “just don’t do it” stance, which is a bit simplistic for problem this this). Using your yardstick, pretty much any dealing with this topic would be causing another to stumble. (I’ve heard the same argument used for why women shouldn’t be allowed on stage in a church – no matter what they’re wearing – because some man in the audience may be tempted to objectify her.)

Better the whole world be damned than saved through sin.

My apologies for being so blunt, but “sin” is not defined by your personal conviction. Such is the definition of legalism.

No “ripping” here, Jazz – just truth in love.

wow, I go to bed and there are 10 comments and wake up and there’s 100 something.

Not to play the wife card, but I don’t know how Chris R. can get so personal in his attacks of Tim (one of the meanest and most judgmental Christians) Really, it’s not loving. at all. You are still brothers in Christ. Tim can have a sharp tongue at times but I see him trying to control it, and comments like that do not promote Christ/the new tone this blog is trying to have.

For those who don’t know….

XXX Church when it first came out had a commercial that stated “everytime you masterbate, God kills a kitten”

That is what my statements have meant.

Rich,

Obviously, because neither of us are organizers of this ministry, neither of us can say that they are lusting or engaging in sensual thoughts.

The question of causing others to stumble is trickier. I fear that people use that scripture as a way to enforce their own personal convictions. The difficult thing, however, is that the more fervent we are in protecting the consciences of others, the easier it is to obscure or hide the fact that people are responsible for their own sin. I know I mentioned this before, but I’ve known guys who disapproved of women having wet hair in public. What they perceived as wisdom, I perceived as (1) an attempt to shift responsibility for lust to anyone other than themselves (2) to make a (not terribly grey) area into something that’s somehow black and white. (”Of course a woman should *never* leave the house with wet hair.”)

So if a woman were to dress in a clearly inappropriate manner at church, that would obviously be sin.

But what about a Renaissance painting on the wall of an art museum? Has art, somewhere at some time, resulted in lust? I’m sure of it. We live in a fallen world. But is Reubens responsible for someone else’s sin? No. Sometimes we need to take responsibility for our actions period.

The mere fact that someone’s actions function as a “but/for” cause for sin does not render that person’s actions morally suspect. If that were the case, then the highest moral example we could ever aspire towards would be someone in a coma.

Because come patients certainly don’t cause anyone to stumble.

Something driving a lot of this conversation is that many Protestants limit their ideas of sanctification and the Holy Spirit to a doctrine of sin management.

If all we ever aspire to is a negative, then it’s easy to throw stones at those who aspire to something more.

This is the weird thing about it, while I’ve heard a lot of caterwauling about it, I’ve never actually heard, read, or met someone who said “it was a temptation for me”.

Tim, absence of evidence doesn’t necessarily mean evidence of absence. You’re a smart man so I’m sure you know that.

This giant display is essentially pornographic itself and that’s the problem. You cannot tell me that there will not be people out there who will see this and be caused, or at least tempted, to pursue sexual thoughts not pleasing to God.

What’s more, the simple fact that we even have to debate whether or not a a 25-foot tall genital organ can cause somebody to sin is enough evidence in itself that it doesn’t belong. Why not just err on the side of not causing another person to stumble?

I find that a strong sermon confronting me on my weaknesses can often cause me to fight back in defensive thoughts and self-justification.

But no one would argue that biblical preaching should stop.

I often have temptations as a I walk down the sidewalk past attractive women.

But women shouldn’t be forced inside, should they?

We need something more than simply “causing someone to sin.”

M.G.,

No one is arguing that woman should be forced inside. Some could dress more modestly, yes, but that’s another issue. That being said, you can’t compare a woman walking down the sidewalk with a giant inflatable phallus. The woman isn’t being used to draw people in. The first is just everyday temptation we have to live with, the second is done in the name of ministry.

I’d ask you the same question I’d ask Kenn. If instead of using a phallus, what if XXXChurch had used female body parts instead? Would it still be justifiable in the name of ministry, or would that finally lead somebody into unnecessary temptation? Remember that even perverse thoughts are an offense to the Lord.

Lastly, we don’t need any better reason than “causing someone to sin”. If a ministry has the potential of causing one of God’s little ones to sin, it should at the very least be rethought. In this case, removed.

rich,

do you really think just because something is debated proves that it shouldn’t be there? that’s just silly. It’s a sad day when being a christian equals everyone having the same opinion.

Phil,
Perhaps, it causes envy.

Chris R,

The Biblical gospel is practically non-existent at XXXChurch’s website and in their messages. That is even more offensive to me than their puppet videos and 30 foot weiner.

You flat out lie…

If you actually take a look they have the “gospel” all over. Also, I think we all know that porn-stars don’t just become ex porn stars by the Gospel, but how can you over look that these people are genuinely come to CHrist and leaving the porn business which makes them “ex” porn stars that are saints!

I wonder had your hostility and hate toward the workings of God… and that you state the do not promote “holy living”… do you not see that they want people to come to sexual purity? Is that not part of YOUR ‘holiness’ you state?

Also, they replaced Wally with the elephant… so get over yourself about how big you think the wiener should have been… sheesh each time you guys mention it, it gets bigger… we are not in a men’s locker room you know!

iggy

Iggy,

That’s an interesting page that you sent me to.

http://xxxchurch.com/gethelp/men.php

I didn’t see the gospel anywhere on that page. Maybe you could give me the exact quote.

Here are my observations about that page.

Jesus isn’t mentioned.

The Cross is not mentioned.

Repentance is not mentioned.

Forgiveness is not mentioned.

In fact, the ’solution’ for a porn problem that is presented on the page you sent me to boils down to 3 steps.

1. Come Clean
2. Work it Out
3. Get Accountable

What exactly is ‘Christian’ about those 3 steps?? Oprah and Dr. Phil could give this advice.

If I were a non-christian and had a porn addiction, I could do all 3 of these steps and I would still go to hell.

So I did NOT flat out lie! And the page that you sent me to, claiming that it ‘contained the gospel’ doesn’t contain it AT ALL.

I Just wanted to clear up the facts.

Chris,

You must live in a la-la land of false dichotomy.

Whether they EVER accept the gospel or not, it is still loving your neighbor to help them escape from an addiction. The ripple effects may never be known to you, but if you end up preventing one divorce, or one child molestation or one suicide, or one murder – even if that person is not eternally saved, someone else down the line may be.

Chris L & Tim,

I’m not arguing that everything a church does have to be 50% Law and 50% Gospel.

My point about XXXChurch is that the Gospel is almost 100% missing from their messages and website. It may still be there but I’ve actually searched through their site to find it and can’t say that I’ve really seen it.

It may be there but It certainly isn’t prominently featured at all. It’s like trying to find a needle in a hay stack.

That’s a bit odd and very disturbing since they claim to be a Christian ministry and even have the word “Church” in their name. Seriously, what makes this a “Christian” ministry since Christ is so conspicuously missing?

Chris R,

i was over at AP and noticed they have on page of what they “believe” but even there I did not see “the gospel” presented.

In fact almost all the the articles there were anti something and not “gospel” at all!

Walter Martin gets mentioned more than Jesus!

Just using your standard and logic…

iggy

I know; you are not Ken… but you approve of his ministry and are part of his ministry through CRN…

Kenn,

Here take a look at Wally. http://www.wallythewiener.com/aboutwally.html

This is a lot more than a ‘vertical structure’ or phallic symbolism.

This argument is the same one I have heard for years…like saying that it’s not Christian music if it doesn’t mention the name of Jesus 20 times…or that worship music is not worship music if it doesn’t mention the cross in every stanza.

…accidently hit submit…stinkin laptop.

I agree with another commentor, I believe that XXXXCHURCH does some good things…I may not always agree with their tactics…but then again…I’m not in the places they are or preaching the gospel to the people they may come into contact with…so who am I to judge?

For a first-timer, rich, you’ve spoken well.

Just…be ready to be ripped by those who disagree with you.

Standard operating procedure. Nothing, personal, just business. At least until it becomes personal.

Rich,

You will find that this characterization of our site in not accurate. In the past this may have been true – but we have been promoting a new tone… one that allows us to disagree – but to do so charitably and w/o becoming personal

I offer the bulk of this thread between Chris R. and I as an example. We are obviously in disagreement, but our discussion never became angry, nor did it devolve into personal attacks.  Both Chris R. and I have made our arguments w/o ripping on each other…

Neil

Iggy,

We asked others to refrain from calling something a lie – so I’ll ask the same of you.

I know it looks that way, but Chris R. seemingly cannot find the link that the rest of us so easily found.

What he is saying is false. It is proved false withing seconds. But we cannot say it is a lie – if for no other reason than to avoid escalation.

Neil

I’ve waded through some of these comments, and here’s what I get so far:

Todd Friel is bad because he talks bad about other Christians, and in order to combat his badness, all you guys talk bad about him.

A man who’s made his life work following Christ’s teaching to preach the gospel (Ray Comfort – who apparently was doing it long before anyone heard of him) is looked upon with derision, but guys who carry around a giant penis are the saints of our time. (I am following along so far?)

Well, think on this: If we are to praise the XXXchurch guys for ‘entering the culture’, why can’t we praise the WOTM guys in the same way? I mean, anyone who ever watches CNN or FOX news or reality TV knows that our culture is saturated in yelling and confrontation, name-calling and other types of verbal assaults, etc.

So, if you’re to be consistant (not likely), you should praise Todd and Ray for engaging our culture in the way that they understand and our accostomed to. Right?

Chris, I checked out the Wally site. Now I’m even more confused. If viewing that would cause someone to stumble, they’ve got way, way way, bigger issues that need to be dealt with. Judging from many of the comments, I was expecting to see something like those giant phallic shaped fertility sculptures in Asia. Anatomically correct to the “nth” degree.

Still, I suppose its funnier than a 30 foot vag.

Truthmatter,

I think you are mischaracterizing the defense of xxxchurch. The point is not being crass or vulgar. The point seems to be loving people caught up in the industry. That’s hard. It’s hard to go where they are and love them in tangible ways without compromise. But it is the love that matters.

So I have no praise for the details of the ministry or giant phalluses. But it’s also really easy for me to critique them behind a keyboard in my living room.

We need less imitation of our culture and more love. But it’s a fair question to ask what the ODMs are doing. Theirs is a negative industry… They tear down every day what others build.

While there is a time and place for that, I think it’s not enough by itself. The ODMs have enough hatred (of sin) but I have never been able to sense the love.

Neil,

We asked others to refrain from calling something a lie – so I’ll ask the same of you.

OK,

Chris R, even after reading your response above, you have still separate your facts from the truth…

(Is that better Neil?)

iggy

Iggy,

Interesting that you included this as xxxchurch’s gospel message:

“Free yourself from the sexual images of the world. Free yourself from sin.”

THE gospel message is that we CAN’T free ourselves from sin.

I think I’d have less of a problem with Wally if he was presenting THE gospel, instead of A gospel.

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying “be saved from this perverse generation.”

Acts 2:40

Did Peter preach a gospel instead of the gospel?

Truthmatters,

’some even stated’ – I don’t know who these ’some’ are, but it wasn’t me

My point is that you are stating that there are more here against Ray Comfort… and it is actually Todd Friel that most comments were against… Ray was sort of a sideline… you seemed to make this more about Ray Comfort versus xxxchurch and as far as the thread really runs it is not that at all… or if it is, it was a very minor thing… but Way of the Master Radio… versus xxxchruch I think was more the problem… as I see a good ministry being attacked by another… and not seeing the fruit is good.

BTW I quoted scripture to your statement

“THE gospel message is that we CAN’T free ourselves from sin.”

as you twisted what was said on xxxchurch site to mean what it did not… so tell me where the fallacy was in correcting you with a scripture that stated that if we are in Christ, we are free from sin?

‘total lack of Grace and brotherly love that would make someone like you actually go to HELP them’ – Do I know you? Have we met? If not, how can you say ’someone like you’ to me?

Have you gone to xxxchruch in love as a brother to help them do a better job… without attacking them and without judging them? If so then sorry, but I did not get that you did all that already from your comments… Have you?

iggy

YOU can’t say that XXXchurch’s methodology is wrong, because the gospel is being preached, but WE can tell you Ray Comfort is wrong, even though the gospel is preached. Do you see the hypocrisy?

TM,

As I said before – Ray Comfort is not being addressed as being wrong. As a matter of fact, WOTM was not even addressed until they started trashing xxx.church. The OP was a comparison of the two given the attack of one againsa the other.

Also, many here have addressed the fact that it is NOT anything goes. That is an unfair representation of the discussion.

Neil

No we cannot free ourselves from our sin because we can’t even turn to Jesus. – Chris R.

I may have misunderstood Iggy, but I thought he was talking more about those who have been regenerated, not that we free ourselves from sin to be regenerated…

You are talking about freeing and turn to Jesus, which I would agree is the cart before the horse. I think iggy was talking about those who have turned…

Neil

I’ve heard it said many times that people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.

Sometimes you have to get the person out of a crisis to start them on the path of discipleship. This seems more Christ-like to me. The woman caught in adultery comes to mind.

I would liken the conflict on this thread to a car accident (like toward the end of the movie “Crash”), where the person trapped in the burning car that’s going to explode.

You have the passerby who rushes over to free the trapped person, stays with the person offering whatever aid and comfort can be provided, and even offers to pray with the person afterward.

Or, same situation, but you have the one person who wants to know if the trapped person has accepted Christ as Savior before helping, and won’t help until the trapped person has either given a testimony or is led to Christ.

Who would you want rescuing you?

I’ll probably get some static for using such extreme options, but our situation has always been extreme. Just because I may not be involved in a particular type of sin, should I not deign getting my hands dirty with those people? Shouldn’t holding out a KJV and yelling from a safe distance, “Y’ALL NEED JAY-SUS” be enough? Isn’t that showing the love? A check maybe?

Jesus died for us while were yet sinners, dead in our sins, enemies of God, children of wrath, in crisis. I don’t read anywhere in the Bible that God helps those who helps themselves. Or that God demanded we get ourselves (and I mean all of us) together (be the righteousness of God) before He’d make it right by sending Jesus.

No, God met us all in our circumstances, showing that He cares, then made the ultilmate sacrifice, and is now patiently awaiting our response to that sacrifice.

So while I’m not saying offer men sex to lead them to Christ, or run around with your junk out to show how down you are partying with porn vets, I do see a need to meet people in their circumstances to show God’s love, that they might know God’s love. I’ve also seen the gentle street approach used by Todd Friel, and he didn’t come off like a loud, obnoxious pompous, religious…behinds, like some of the ones I encountered as a student at Michigan State.

To be fair, I have to admit some of xxxchurch’s efforts (the execution) bumps up against my sensibilities (no mean feat), but in the end, it’s not about my feelings. Jesus had to descend much lower to save us.

I was not aware there’s a pro forma silver bullet for getting people saved, and if you’re not getting people led to Christ in one shot in that manner, you’ve failed as a Christian. Whatever happened to heaping coals on someone? Or one person breaks ground, another may plant a seed, and yet another waters it.

Chris R,

No we cannot free ourselves from our sin because we can’t even turn to Jesus.

Then you disagree with Jesus when He stated “The Truth will set you free.”?

You are twisting what is stated and what I stated to some sick place. You are promoting godliness, but denying its power… so I guess you are stating we do not change at all when we come to Jesus?

IF you even began to know what I speak of you might even begin to understand what I am saying… but since you have judged and labeled me as “such and such” you cannot see that Jesus stated He sets us free… and if the Son sets us free we are free indeed!.. Is that in your bible still? It must not be if you are saying I am wrong that the Son sets us free…

I hope you will actually go and look what the persons states and believes BEFORE you say what YOU THINK they are saying…

Really this only shows me HOW you read others… with a bias already in place to prove them wrong…

So, I will quote the same scripture that I did already and you can disagree with Jesus’ own words all you want.

John 8: 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

That is what xxx church is teaching… that truthmatters tried to twist… and you are now stating is wrong as you disagree with me on this…

SO you state that Jesus does not free us?

Here IS the kicker…

2 Timothy 2: 20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

So you do not see that we have a part to play?

Or that James must have lied when he stated in

James 4: 7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

It is in coming to Jesus as the Father draw us, that we ARE made free, cleansed and purified…

So, again make sure that you know the person and that you have understood what they stated BEFORE you lay false claims and attribute some erroneous teaching to them…

I will say this is consistent though with all I read coming from CRN… they see what they want to and care little to see what is really stated and believed by others. I also pray that you humble yourself as God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud…

iggy

The context of the conversation is the message that XXXChurch is using to reach out to Porn-Stars and Porn Addicts. I think we can safely say that many of these people are not saved, therefore the message from XXXchurch “Free yourself from the sexual images of the world. Free yourself from sin” is not appropriate nor even sound spiritual advice.

I agree that no one, who is unsaved, can free themselves from sin. I would say, however, that it is possible for someone who is unsaved to be “free” from sins – that is stop committing particular sins.

Neil

Father Iggy,

You are all the way back to Rome. Enough said.

Sandman,

I think the issues are even deeper than your illustration… this thread shows that a false wedge can be put between types of ministry as well as methods of providing the salvation message.

Specifically we’ve seen the wedge placed between helping people out of porn and getting them saved. We’ve seen the wedge place between linking to the salvation methods and hosting it yourself.

Neil

If you are arguing that it’s OK for xxxchurch to use any means as long as the gospel is preached and they are reaching out to people, how can you turn around and criticize the WOTM people for their methodology?

TM,

When you asked this question the first time I answered by saying – no one is saying it’s OK to use any means. It started as a comparison between two ministries – one attacked by the other.

Neil

Chris R,

Father Iggy,

You are all the way back to Rome. Enough said.

Yep, you even stated I would make a great Lutheran once… so I guess you should know! LOL!

Really it never ceases to amaze me how hard it is for you guys to say, “I sorry, I was wrong.”

Repentance seems lost on you ODM’s… even when shown wrong you still shift the blame on others…
I would almost go into shock if one actually stated “Sorry.” I mean just one! LOL!

So one will either dwell in the Truth and Light of error and darkness… and instead of saying sorry, you choose to state falsehoods about me and others and then go on as if bearing false witness was the highest of virtues in the Christian faith…

iggy

Truthmatters,

Yet because Tim and Iggy are trying to defend xxxchurch in general, they find themselves having to try to defend what xxxchurch has to say, which would be fine, except that what they said clearly contracdicts scripture, as was soundly and biblically pointed out by Chris R.

You are again grossly misrepresenting me… I have agreed that some things are not that great of ideas… and stated though that from you and others (CR) there is a great lack of Grace and the willingness to help them without going and judging them…

So, please do not try to state things i am not saying as if I stated them.

I also stated that they seem to no longer use the 400 foot penis and are now using a Huge Blue Elephant, but you guys keep ragging on and on about how bit this penis is…

So, if you are not willing to do something, stop complaining…

Also, Chris R did not prove that they were doing anything unbiblical… in fact both of you only twisted one thing to make it sound wrong and when I showed you Jesus’ own words, you stated i was wrong… so if anyone was unbiblical it is you two as you stated Jesus is wrong in what HE STATED that I quoted! LOL!

iggy

Tim, you said:

“Here’s the problem. We’re not criticizing WOTM’s methods, we’re criticizing what they’re doing. They can use whatever methods they want to crticize XXXChurch, its still ridiculous when they apparently aren’t actually doing themselves.”

Tim,
You used the word ‘apparently’ here, so maybe you don’t know if they are doing anything about pornography or not. But my question to you is this: What if they were? What if WOTM was, in fact, trying to help people overcome an addiction to pornography?

You also used the word ‘ridiculous’. Would you then admit that it was ‘ridiculous’ for you to start up this whole thing based on the premise that ‘they weren’t doing anything about it’, when in fact they were?

Would you then admit that you made a mistake, and maybe even apologize to the WOTM folks personally.

If, and it’s a big IF, the WOTM people are doing something about pornography addiction, I think that you probably ought to admit that you were wrong and end this thread. As a wise man once warned said:

“Really it never ceases to amaze me how hard it is for you guys to say, “I sorry, I was wrong.”

Repentance seems lost on you ODM’s… even when shown wrong you still shift the blame on others…
I would almost go into shock if one actually stated “Sorry.” I mean just one! LOL!”

Would you, Tim, make a promise to do that? Thanks.

truthmatters,

Acutally some of what you wrote about Tim I stated…

Would you then admit that you made a mistake, and maybe even apologize to the WOTM folks personally.

I have… and if you poke around here a bit you will find I have a few times…

Also i have public apologies on my own blog…

So, yes I practice what I preach.

And I do not “promise” I already DO! Will you? I mean start by telling Tim sorry for saying he said things I stated…

You will find it freeing! LOL! I mean if you really think and believe “truth matters”.

iggy

Tim, you wrote:

“Truthmatters,
You wrote an awful lot about a hypothetical situation, not to mention creating numerous strawmen yourself.

How about first showing where anyone stated that any methods at all are OK? Then we can go from there. Can you do that? Thanks.”

These two things have nothing to do with each other. I ask you a question (admittedly, containing several hypotheticals), that is in essence THE central premise of your ENTIRE post and this whole thread. And I think I know why:

If you answer the questions I just asked, and if WOTM is, in fact, doing something about pornography, then you look real bad. Because, once again, the WHOLE POINT of your post is that WOTM isn’t doing anything about pornography. You would have to admit that you’re wrong, and maybe even have to apologize to the people at WOTM.

So, instead of answering my question, you try to send me on a wild goose chase to distract from this plain fact:

If WOTM is doing something about pornography, then you are wrong, just plain wrong. And if that’s the case, you can’t criticize them for not doing anything, which certainly seems to be the intention of your post anyway.

Yes of no, Tim. IF WOTM is doing something, will you admit your error. Yes or no.

TM,

Actually, I wondered at the comparison when I first read it, until I realized it was a response to a comparison made by WOTM radio by Todd Friehl, and not just a randomly picked comparison. In that light, I understand why the comparison was made…

TM,

I do not see a logical fallacy. According to you it’s a fallacy to criticize those who criticize. This sounds like a variation of the “You’re doing exactly what you oppose…” argument.

In a sense you are right, but you’ve oversimplified the objection… a- we strive to be different than most ODM’s – though I don’t know that WOTM is really an ODM – even if they acted like it in this case and b – applying your logic would mean no one could ever address/ criticize the overly critical.

Shall we just give ‘em all free reign?

Neil

I’m still trying to understand why we are even discussing the idea that toting around a huge inflatable penis to trade shows where their is all sorts of sinful things going on is anything but flat out wrong????

Don’t porn stars eat? Let’s witness to them at the grocery store.
Don’t porn stars get gas? Let’s witness to them at the gas station.

You get the idea.

Let’s not trot out that old tired, “Jesus at with tax collectors so we are allowed to do anything we want” line again shall we?

Jesus rebuked sin…let’s do the same.

Robert P,

Jesus rebuked sin…let’s do the same.

Go and take close note at whose sin Jesus rebuked… it was the religious people… Jesus forgave those that you seem to want to be “tired” of.

In fact before you comment go and do that…

iggy

I’m still trying to understand why we are even discussing the idea that toting around a huge inflatable penis to trade shows where their is all sorts of sinful things going on is anything but flat out wrong???? – Robert P

I think it’s an inflatable phallus, not a penis – but I too am bored with that tired accusation as well… it’s noting but a distraction.

Neil

Robert,

Actively seeking out porn stars at grocery stores and gas stations isn’t called ministry, it’s called stalking.

When Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes, do you really believe he did so on the condition that they not sin around him?

I’m sorry, but for Christians to meet with porn stars at trade shows just for the purpose of loving them is pretty amazing. We can’t ask expect them to come to us, we can’t stalk them, and so we have to go to them to love them.

(Note: This is not an endorsement of giant penises.)

The difference is (and this is the essence of my dilemma), that the ODMs you speak of don’t have a basic tenet or belief that it’s wrong to criticize; whereas you guys seem to have that as one of your core beliefs.

You might check out the links in the upper left – which spell out the core mission of this site, as I think you might have been misinformed.

Truthmatters,

Communicating via the internet allows for escalation and anger that you just don’t find in other means of communication. And while some here are quicker to get riled up than others – we basically try to keep the rhetoric on the issues not the personalities.

The exchange between Chris R and I on this thread yesterday was a great example of that.

I hope you take the time to read our mission, read how we are different, and poke around long enough to see us put those differences into action.

Neil

Neil,

Once again, well spoken.

I guess what I’m seeing here is there isn’t much differnce between what I see at ODM sites and what I see here.

Let’s say someone starts an ODM site with the purpose of warning and edifying the church. But as they go along, trying to gather information, they become hyper-critical and jaded. It just happens because it’s the nature of what they’re trying to do.

In the same way, I believe that you guys here will probably end up (and are already) doing the same types of things and becoming the same way.

I mean, there’s hardly any discernable differnce between:

* Look, those emergents are at it AGAIN!

and

* Look, those ODMs are at it AGAIN!

I’ve just skimmed over some of the stuff here and see the same type of guilt by association, painting with a broad brush, taking things out of context, etc, that you accuse the ODMs of.

Just looking at this one thread, I’ve been associated with of accused of the following:

* Being an ODM (I’m not)
* Being a Calvinist (I’m not sure if I am, and I don’t care)
* Someone who says all who aren’t Calvinists aren’t Christians (I don’t think that, I believe all who are not saved aren’t Christians)
* Being a supporter of Ken Silva (whom I don’t read)

So, you see, as hard as you guys may think you’re trying to not be like them, I think you are (not you specifically, Neil, but it sounds like Tim is getting there)

And again, I’m not against the practice, per se, it’s the logic of it I would have a hard time with.

I mean, how would I rate with you guys if I decided to start a website with the express purpose of finding errors in this website? What would you think of me. My first headline would be:

“Those guys at CRN.info and Analysis are at it AGAIN!”

Then my whole first article would be about how Tim wrote a whole post with the premise that WOTM is doing nothing about pornography, and how immediately the attacks started on Todd Friel, and then I would share some of the quotes of how you guys lump all ODMs with Calvinists, and Ingrid, and whomever, and then I would give links to show exactly what WOTM is doing about pornography.

If I did this, would I immediately be criticized in a post here? But, if I did this, how would I be doing anything different than what you guys are doing here?

I guess what I’m seeing here is there isn’t much difference between what I see at ODM sites and what I see here.

In the same way, I believe that you guys here will probably end up (and are already) doing the same types of things and becoming the same way – truthmatters

I’m sorry you don’t see the differences between us and them. I won’t go into a long litany of differences, but I’ll offer a few…

So far no on this site has posted an article…
…calling a fellow believer an anti-Christ, enemy of Christ, etc
…selectively quoting someone so as to change the meaning of what was said
…saying that a church is not part of the bride of Christ, or an individual is not saved.

They have done all this.

We will not stand for personal attacks and guilt by association.

We will acknowledge wrongs and offer corrections and apologies — corrections and apologies are two things they will not do -

OK – this is becoming a litany…

As for you prediction that we will become like them, I can only offer two responses:
1) To avoid that is why we implemented the tone and character section and,
2) If it does become that, I will bow out (speaking only for myself;f).

Neil

Tim,

I originally asked you if you would apologize to WOTM for implying that they did nothing about pornography, and this was your response:

Comment from Tim Reed, Owosso MI
Time: January 27, 2008, 8:36 pm

Truthmatters,
You wrote an awful lot about a hypothetical situation, not to mention creating numerous strawmen yourself.

How about first showing where anyone stated that any methods at all are OK? Then we can go from there. Can you do that? Thanks.

Then, after avoiding the questions I asked by posing another question, later you wrote this to me:

Comment from Tim Reed, Owosso MI
Time: January 27, 2008, 10:43 pm

Truthmatters,
Are you going to answer the questions I posed? Or is your evasiveness a concession that WOTM is criticizing a ministry that is showing actual fruit in an area they are doing either nothing, or very little?

So, my question to you, by your own standards – what was you evasiveness a concession of?

And, I already answered, in detail, your questions, but let me put it more simply:

I think it’s very bad and dangerous to compare ministries. If you’re trying to make that point that WOTM is somehow inferior because they don’t go to porn shows (and you or I don’t know that they don’t), then couldn’t you then also make the point that xxxchurch is somehow inferior because they don’t offer a video on biblical hermanuetics?

I don’t want to be the judge of that stuff, but apparently you do.

But, just to make it clear, I’ll try to answer your list of questions:

1) How many pieces of accountability software has WOTM financed, produced, and given away for free?

I don’t know. And neither do you. But from listening to the show, I think that the response they would give would be to say that the only accountability that really matters is accountability to God. So maybe they don’t think it really works to change the heart, and maybe xxxchurch does; either way, I wouldn’t criticize either.

2) How many porn stars have become ex-porn stars because of the direct spiritual and financial support of WOTM?

I don’t know. And neither do you. But I’d bet it’s more than one as Ray spent a lot of time witnessing in the MacArthur Park area in LA, and I’m sure he ran into some porn stars who, through the preaching of the gospel became ex-porn stars.

3) How many Bibles has WOTM given to porn stars?

Again, I don’t know. And neither do you. But I’m sure it’s some, because they do witnessing daily and often times give away bibles afterwards, and I’m sure some have been to porn stars.

4) How many videos has WOTM financed and produced attacking other Christians?

I don’t know. And this one you might know, so why don’t you tell me? How many videos have they produced attacking other Christians? Please site all the examples for me.

TM,

I think you may be reading too much into this. I don’t speak for Tim, but I don’t think that he was saying that WOTM is wholly without merit, or that XXXChurch is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Rather, WOTM decided to criticize XXXChurch. Which, in our blogging society, is a *really* easy thing to do. Criticism is everywhere. Now, criticism, qua criticism, isn’t wrong. But there is something to be said that armchair quarterbacking, in the absence of any *real* quarterbacking, is easy, yes, but without tremendous value.

I think that’s a fair point to make.

Elsewhere, you say:

“I think that the response they would give would be to say that the only accountability that really matters is accountability to God.”

If they were to say that, it would be tragic and unbiblical. We are commanded, repeatedly, to confess to on another, bear each other burdens, and intercede in each other’s lives so as to prevent our brother from stumbling. Providing transparency and honesty in a dark and tempting place is, I believe, quite literally a gift from heaven.

That kind of fake spirituality is, in my opinion, untrue. (So take note!)

tm,

Of course both the accountant & the porn star need Jesus. However, how many people do you know reaching out to accountants? How many christian accountants do you know, being a godly example of that profession? I think you would agree that there aren’t Christian pornstars, so they don’t have good examples around them in their profession. Also, who do you think would be more willing to go to a church – an accountant or a pornstar? Honestly answer this.

Besides the fact that porn is a HUGE issue in this country, and one that has been relatively ignored by churches for a very long time.

Tim, you said this:

Truthmatters,
The point I’m making is plain. Financing and producing videos that are nothing more than petty sniping at ministries you’re completely uninvolved with who are tackling issues which you’re unwilling to tackle yourself is, at best, prideful shenanigans.

Stop avoiding the question. Now you have clearly made the accusation that WOTM produces these kinds of videos, so please show some proof. According to you, they are ‘producing and financing these videos’, so it should be easy for you to produce some of these things.

But since you didn’t the first time, I’ll assume that:

They don’t exist, it’s just a straw man that you created so that you can:

disrespect, disavow, discourage and disenfranchise individuals and entire groups of brothers and sisters in Christ as part of your elevation of external preferences and your adherence to systematic doctrines of men.

So, as of now you’ve accused the WOTM people of not doing anything about pornography (which is untrue), and of producing and financing videos attacking other Christians (which is also untrue).

You have two choices:

You can apologize, admit you were wrong, and that you are biased against someone and made all kinds of hasty generalizations, or..

Change your name to Ingrid2

TM,

Here;s a link to the article on XXXChurch about the video from WotM: http://xxxchurch.com/blog_post.php?b=x3&p=307#form

The video is linked on the front page of xxxchurch.

TM,

You managed to be insulting to both Ingrid and Tim in the same comment. Impressive.

To claim that WOTM is doing something about pornography because they preach the gospel is pretty weak. How many porn stars have you met? My guess is that there are about as many astronauts in the country as porn stars. If your ministry isn’t targeted you’re not doing much.

I would love a response to my previous comment. Do you really think a tool for enhancing accountability is without merit?

UH-Oh, (my)Truthmatters, you’re agenda is showing. How’d you miss that in the original post?

PB,

The WOTMR guy (Todd Friel) produced a video called ‘Slaying the Dragon’ which is actually the Gospel AND a great tool to break the hold of evangelism.

Are you sure this is not more truthful?

Just kidding!

Though by your comments I really doubt you have counseled someone dealing with sexual addictions…

iggy

PB,

So those who struggle with porn addictions (like pastors) who know Jesus do not exist in your world? Wow….

I believe in victory over sin also, and have seen it, yet most the time it is by the renewing of the mind… which takes time.

iggy

Untold numbers of true conversions,

Now, that’s a loaded statement that seems to be implying that XXXChurch is not creating “true” converts.

PB,

I have, and I am. XXXChurch is a stumbling block for them in that it reminds them of the world they are trying to leave. Slaying the Dragon does the job without the images that are on the site. For those who have been converted, and are trying to seriously stop by the power of the holy spirit, they have to leave all aspects of the old habit (like having the internet) behind.

You stated above :. XXXChurch is a stumbling block for them in that it reminds them of the world they are trying to leave.

I wonder at this… as I see that so many times some say they are no longer addicted but are. They fear though that if someone found out they will not be accepted. To learn how to deal with addiction like this is to learn new behavior. If you took time to actually read the many testimonies at xxxchurch you will find there are many that have success… and some that tried things as you state (though that may be and excellent program) and failed… so they turn to those who will not judge them in their failure but help them and encourage them as they walk beside them… toward victory.

Jesus is not a magic pill… though “sin” is dealt with on the cross; many still must struggle in their belief as they go through the renewing of their minds so that they can live at peace with a clean conscience.

I also think that there are many who will not go to someone who seem “too holy” to get help… again that is not a criticism of WoTM at all, but an observation that many come to me (as I am not that holy… LOL!) and state that I am accepting and non judgmental and do not feel condemned… and that they are struggling in that some have done so, so feel unworthy of Jesus… (Did you catch that? we are all unworthy of Jesus… even those in Victory….)

I know some that do just stop, “By the power of the Holy Spirit” yet I know more that struggle secretly…, and I know many who still need help in correcting the errors and replace them with the truth of God’s word…

Again, to state that some need to leave aspects of their lives behind shows that you miss that some cannot… in fact it also shows that you miss the difference between true restoration and bandages that cover wounds.

A person who is truly healed can still go online and not look at porn… a person still struggling and is not truly victorious yet, will still have issues.

What I mean is that we need to be realistic as people now days do need the internet as it is at work, home, and many places. I have even worked at places with guys who are not Christian and bring porno to work… I know that you will state that I should make a stand and I usually did, but truthfully, I make more of a stand by knowing I can still go into a bathroom at work… with porn in it and not look at it. It does not matter if others “think” I am looking or not… as God knows and I know… That is true victory.

I hope you understand this as to me I think many “Christians” want to give the quick answer and hand Jesus out like a magic fix it pill… real life happens even with Jesus.

iggy

PB,

How is asking if you think that xxxchuch is not or is producing true conversions… judging you?

That is a bit bizarre…

iggy

Wow, seems like I missed a lot, no way to catch up, but I need to address my original point, because it’s been proven here many times over:

This site is supposed to combat the ODMs who use half-truths, things taken out of context, and slander to slam other Christians. They also refuse to apologize or admit their mistakes.

My original point was that this site it doing the same thing:

(1) Stating that WOTM is doing nothing about pornography.

As noted they produced the Slaying the Dragon video specifically to combat pornography.

Tim should apologize for implying that they don’t do anything about pornography, but he so far hasn’t. Then he makes this absurd statement:

“I don’t know anyone who wasn’t already a Christian who’s used it.”

Really, that’s a good point in your mind? OK, I can honestly say I don’t know one person who’s been helped by xxxchurch. Therefore, according to your logic, I can say that they aren’t doing anything. (Isn’t this the same type of logic that the ODMs use to make their points?)

(2) Saying that WOTM just produces and finances videos that atttack other Chrsitians

When I asked for proof, I was taken to a you tube clip that was not produced by WOTM, not financed by WOTM, nor was it even a video clip. (Isn’t this the exact type of half-truths and misstatements that you accuse the ODMs of)

Next, we have this statement from Tim:

(3) “Additionally you have the videos produced like Bull Whip Guy (originally appeared on the WOTM site) which is slanderous in that it pretty much portrays Rob Bell as holding views that he doesn’t hold.”

This video too was not produced or financed by WOTM, and was, in fact, a response to Rob Bell’s ‘Bull Horn Guy’, in which Rob Bell basically slammed other Christians for doing ministry in a different way than him, created a caricature of certain types of Christians he doesn’t like, and flat-out said that God would not be pleased with him.

In creating this video, Bell did exactly the type of thing that you guys are supposed to be against. He did the same types of things that you accuse the ODMs of. Question: Since this is the purpose of your site, did you take Rob Bell to task for what he did in this video? If not, why not?

And actually, the ‘Bull Whip Guy’ video did exactly what you guys claim to do here: it pointed out a ministry online who was maligning other Christians, creating false caricatures, and judging others for not doing ministry in exactly their way.

It’s truly amazing that you guys can’t see that you’re no different than those you seek to expose. You use the same tactics, employ the same faulty logic, have the same set-in-stone biases, and have the same refusal to admit the blantent mis-charactorizations you use to get your points across.

But yet your opinion is that when others do it they are harming the body of Christ, yet when you do it you’re doing God’s work.

Really, that’s a good point in your mind? OK, I can honestly say I don’t know one person who’s been helped by xxxchurch.

I have… but I do not know one person helped by WoTM… so I guess by your logic…

iggy

(It also always flagged the ESPN Notre Dame site every time I went to it)

Sounds like it was working correctly to me.

Aargh – you beat me to it! (Though I suspect Rick, Sandman and a few other ND fans would disagree…)

I think now you’re being intentionally evasive. I didn’t say they put out a teaching to show that they’re better than xxxchurch, I said they put out a teaching to show that YOU were WRONG when you said they haven’t done anything.

I was trying to get you to admit your mistake and apologize, because I know you don’t like it when ODMs refuse to admit their mistakes. But once again, and again, you refuse to admit anything you say is wrong, and in doing so, you prove that you are JUST LIKE those hated ODMs.

Most recent example:

You expressly blamed WOTM for producing and being in the ‘Bullwhip Guy’ video, and instead of owning up to your lie, you give me links to videos that aren’t the ‘Bullwhip Guy’ video, without ever owning up to it.

You should start your own ODM, you’ve got the style down pat.

TM,

I think now you’re being intentionally evasive. I didn’t say they put out a teaching to show that they’re better than xxxchurch, I said they put out a teaching to show that YOU were WRONG when you said they haven’t done anything.

Tim never stated that WoTM have not done anything… you are stating Tim stated that but Tim never has… how is Tim being evasive if he never stated what you are saying he did? Agian, did you read the post?

I was trying to get you to admit your mistake and apologize, because I know you don’t like it when ODMs refuse to admit their mistakes. But once again, and again, you refuse to admit anything you say is wrong, and in doing so, you prove that you are JUST LIKE those hated ODMs.

You are missing that you are asking Tim to apologize for saying something he has not… It seems you are more in line with the ODM mindset of stating things that other say when they did not and then wanting them to apologize for sinning when they have not….

iggy

Way of the Master
As far as I can tell mostly just complains about other Christians. Seriously, can you find an actual example of them actually doing something? Google shows me nothing.

-Tim Reed

TM,

Way of the Master
As far as I can tell mostly just complains about other Christians. Seriously, can you find an actual example of them actually doing something? Google shows me nothing.

You will have to ask Google why they do not link to WoTM and all that they are doing… IOW’s if Google does not find a link that has WoTM doing all you and others say they are, then why not?

Also, you keep missing the word “mostly”. In that Tim give room that they are, but there is not much evidence that they are…

You are stating Tim is lying… but did you bother “Googling”?

I see that you are not purposly missing that one word, but you are looking at only one part and negating what else was stated… (Hmmm this happens a lot in the ODM world)

iggy

On the original post, where Ted gave the link to:

Google Shows Me Nothing

On the 8th result down, not 800th, not 80th, but 8th result down there is a link that takes you to WOTM’s ‘Slaying the Dragon’

As a matter of fact, if you hit ‘cache’ on that 8th result down, the word pornography appears in green on the website and you can skim to it almost immediately. Took me about 12 seconds.

Here’s what you just said:

“You will have to ask Google why they do not link to WoTM and all that they are doing… IOW’s if Google does not find a link that has WoTM doing all you and others say they are, then why not?”

I’ve just shown that they do, and that it was VERY easy to find.

So, I guess the question is this:

If I was able to find it in 12 seconds, why wasn’t Tim able to find it before starting this post?

(1) He found it, and is intentionally lying (which I don’t believe)
(2) He didn’t find it because he’s not smart enough to use the internet (which I don’t believe)
(3) He didn’t find it because HE NEVER EVEN LOOKED FOR IT

I think you’ll agree (but never respond to) the fact that #3 seems like the very likely answer. And if that’s the case, then, (how try to be honest here) isn’t he doing the EXACT same things that you accuse the ODMs of?

From Monk:

Here’s what happened:

Tim heard the WOTM talk about xxxchurch and got mad (maybe rightly so) and wanted to respond. He thought the best tactic would be to accuse WOTM of doing nothing about pornography. So he quickly posted the google link but never really checked it because he was sure that WOTM did nothing about pornography (A classic ODM trick of assuming that those we disagree with don’t have anything positive to offer)

Then, when myself and others proved that WOTM did in fact do something about pornography, he changed the idea to they weren’t doing enough, or comparing what they were doing to another ministry. (Which I still say is a very bad and dangerous thing to do – but very ODM like)

Now you come on and challenge me with this google thing and I immediately found it, without even trying.

But again, please someone answer this question:

Why didn’t Tim find it?

Hey, Tim, missed your last post about me having an obvious agenda. Ha. I think what I just wrote will tell anyone reading where the ‘obvious agenda’ lies.

Oh, and by the way, here’s a prediction:

Tim will say that he DID see the link I referred to, but he didn’t think that it was on the same level as what xxxchurch was doing. (Even though he never even acknowledged their video until it was pointed out to him)

C’mon, just be honest and admit that your agenda to smear WOTM caused you to not even look to see if they did anything. C’mon Truth does matter.

Iggy,

That’s weak, and you know it. Blaming Google? Rather than admit the obvious agenda here.

Here from the 8th entry down, the line you can read says this:

This contains the information you need to NEVER fall into pornography again.

And the word pornography is in bold. It’s inconcievable that anyone who tried to find something, even for 2 minutes, would’ve missed that.

By the way, gotta go now, be back in a few hours to see how you and Ingrid spin this.

TM,

I liked the “Monk” reference…. LOL!

I am not “hot” or “angry” or anything.

Now, if i was looking for help with porn addiction I would type it in just as Tim did in the Google link

BTW the 8th one is either of these two (if you count or don’t count the sub category one at the top)

Overcompensating: Actual Things That Happen to Jeffrey Rowland …Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you The Way of The Master Ministries, ….. From now on, I am referring to my pornography-viewing habits as smacking a British …
http://www.wigu.com/overcompensating/2006/09/way-of-master.html – 82k – Cached – Similar pages

The Way of the Master Living Waters AustraliaThis contains the information you need to NEVER fall into pornography again. … Hear the Way of the Master Radio each weekend on Vision Radio Network.
http://www.ucbdirect.com.au/items/way-of-the-master/list.htm – 123k – Cached – Similar pages

I went to both these and found nothing…

But I did notice this:

1. the first two are hit pieces.
2. Every two years WoTM Radio discusses Pornography. (the next two hits)
3. There is on hit from WoTM that takes you to a book that has nothing to do with porn.
4. There is this one: MySpace.com – XXXCHURCH – 30 – Male – Grand Rapids, MICHIGAN – www …Just viewed Way of the Master’s clip. Unfortunately, this is another …. Daniel – XXXchurch saved me from porn. And if you ain’t down with that I got two …
http://www.myspace.com/xxxchurch – 161k – Cached – Similar pages

Notice it states “Daniel – XXXchurch saved me from porn.”

5. Then I see a secular site that finds WoTM comical.
6. When i go to the WoTM site i do find one thing in their book sales place… but it costs $19 plus shipping… which it seems that xxxchurch gives all the same info for free on their site and has online counseling as well as free 30 day software.

So, out of all that I see very little and have to really search and pay for help from WoTM… while I can go to xxxchurch and get free help…. Which one sounds more like a ministry? = )

iggy

Wrong s/s Tim…

This thread reminds me of this post.

A possible candidate for moderation, then?

I’ll take that over XXXChurch any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

…and herein lies the whole problem with the false dichotomy…

Truthmatters,

I am satisfied we have shown ample differences between us and you average ODM – even if exceptions to the rule exist.

To All,

When we get to the point of arguing over the exact meaning of “I found nothing” and “…how hard did you look?” and “I’ll choose this ministry over that…” and ad nauseum… If it were in my power I close the thread.

Neil

The very fact that he was “corrected” illustrates another significant difference between us and the two ODM’s we address most often – they do not allow comments, so they do not allow themselves to be corrected – as this thread has “corrected” Tim.

Which is one way of maintaining accountability.

And one more thing….

I want to say something that I think only Neil gets so far:

The vast majority of what I posted here was not about WOTM or about xxxchurch. It was about you guys here.

Personal opinions….

I like WOTM and I think Todd can be a little snooty sometimes.

I like what xxxchurch is doing in general. I don’t like the idea of Ron Jeremy, or the phallic symbol, but look through my posts and you’ll NEVER find me accusing them of not doing anything, not doing enough, or not doing as much as WOTM, even though most of your responses to me have been in that direction.

Almost all I’ve written is to get you to see that you are behaving just like the ODMs.

Want proof:(Just answer to yourself, ’cause I know you won’t answer me)

What if Ingrid of Slice had written an article stating that xxxchurch does no evangelism, and then given a link exactly like the one Tim gave. And in that link, on the very first page, was a link to the evangelism resources that xxxchurch has.

Would you guys defend her the way you’re defending Tim? Would you accept that she had tried really hard to find it but just missed it? Somehow, I don’t think that you would. I think you would use it as an example of how OMDs twist the truth. But yet you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing.

And furthermore, what if a lot of the posts in the comments section starting comparing how much envangelism resources WOTM has vs. how many xxxchurch has. You can’t tell me you would stand for that (And quite frankly, you shouldn’t)

This bias is really showing. (And, for the record, I don’t think it’s wrong to have a bias – it’s just not intellectually honest to have a bias and claim not to be)

So, answer this honestly (and to yourselves please – ’cause if you reply to me you’ll just try to win an argument) –

Would you defend Ingrid if she did what Tim did, or would you expose her?

OK – I thought we might get past this, but apparently not…

I think it’s best to close this thread for now…