There’s an old maxim: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. Unfortunately, this can be taken too far. Like if you hear one quack, and declare duck-dom.
The mid-80s (yes, I’m older than dirt) saw the first big wave of Christian bands that sought to “cross over”, i.e. take their music to the larger, secular market. Regardless of the actual motivation of each individual that did this, a blanket “discernment” was made by many that every last one of them had impure motives. And so they were regularly attacked for allegedly “selling out the Gospel”.
But apparently, there were not enough targets to be attacked, and even the ODMs of the 80s were getting tired of flagellating the expired equine. So new musicians were found and (mis)labeled as Christian cross-overs. What were the criteria for the “research” that went into finding these artists? One quack.
Mr. Mister was allegedly a Christian cross-over because of their song, “Kyrie Eleison”. And in what has to be the most stunningly laughable association of all time, George Michael was declared a Christian cross-over because of the title of one song, “Faith”. These associations also had the added benefit to the critics that they could then ascribe whatever unChrist-like actions (no matter how bizarre) that these artists did to actual Christian musicians. One would imagine that they viewed Bob Hartman as being 5 minutes away from being arrested for lewd acts in a park restroom.
Lest you think that such far-reaching associations were a thing of yesteryear, we have this post from C?N. Because a father-to-be out-of-wedlock uses a little spiritual terminology, the logical conclusion (apparently) is that he will be embraced by emergents. This illogic is then compounded by stating that McConaughey sounds “amazingly similar” to “some of these new breed emerging church pastors”. Never mind that no names or quotes are cited — we’ll take the Editor at his word. And, of course, never mind that — in many of his words — McConaughey also sounds “amazingly similar” to any and every super-conservative pastor out there.
The Stretch Armstrong of logic just snapped and that green ooze is going everywhere.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
43 Comments(+Add)
OK – this has me completely stumped. What does Mc… have to do with Emergents?
Neil
Exactly
Half truths that are as good as lies for all the truth they convey are inherent in ODM writing.
Tim,
Usually they make some kind of connection, some behavior in a Christian that they can question – here they give an example of a non-Believer (I assume) and because he makes a spiritual comment he’s connected to Emergents?
What would be the fun in specifically pointing out “emergents” that would agree with McC’s statements? Then the post wouldn’t be nearly as deliciously snarky, or as easy to write.
*Sigh* These kinds of posts seem to be all to common on watchdoggy sites. I especially enjoy the end, where Editor automatically equates evolution with “no God.” Is Editor saying that any form of evolution, even micro-evolution, means that God doesn’t have to be in the picture at all?
Neil,
Like this connection?
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=712
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=2688
There is more… but then that would expose CRN as worse researchers than they already are!
Signing my name as usual,
iggy
Matt, I emailed “Editor” about the “evolution (no God)” line. Ken wrote back and said that they do acknowledge micro, but don’t believe in macro, as it has no Biblical basis. (Interestingly, neither does micro, but hey…)
This CRN piece is disappointing to say the least.
However, I believe that Brian McLaren is making a call to Matthew right now because of the god/creation/evolution references.
pastorboy…
That would be more likely that any ODM reaching out with the love of Christ to Matthew Mac…
We are more missional minded.
= )
iggy
I’ll throw this in for the sake of conversation. It’s perfectly compatible to be a Creationist and an Evolutionist at the same time. Not all Evolutionists are atheists. Actually, just a small minority profess to be.
Iggy,
Why would an emergent need to reach out to him? We are all going to be renewed and restored on the day of judgement, aren’t we? Don’t we all get to enter into the forevermore?
Pastorboy…
“Why would an emergent need to reach out to him? We are all going to be renewed and restored on the day of judgement, aren’t we? Don’t we all get to enter into the forevermore?”
You twist things there…. ODM’s claim we are all Universalists.. but I know only a few that MIGHT BE… but even Doug Pagitt has stated he is not… though CRN linked to a post by him as if he stated he was…
I think you miss what we are teaching there…
Do you not believe the scripture when it states?
Or when it states:
Or this?
Or this?
I think you miss what scripture states and for some reason instead of hearing the word… make it that we mean “universalism” which most of us do not!
That is the evil that the slander and lies of the ODM’s have done to you and to many others… and the reason this bog is here… so stop the lies so people like you do not believe them and realize that “God is reconciling all things to Himself in Christ” and that is truth and it is scripture…
iggy
You would expect “micro-evolution”/adaptation/natural selection within the various types of animals/plants in a Biblical model of science. Life can’t exist without those things, and besides, that’s something we can test and prove happens.
You wouldn’t get non-living chemicals or even “simple” bacterium ‘evolving’ in to human beings/other animals/plants out of the Bible however. Nor do you get it out of reality either. Or in practical, testable, operational science for that matter.
Just my 2 cents.
Joe
Iggy, like Rob Bell, you quote scripture without the address.
I think the last one in in Colossians 1
I think the first is in Ephesians…
I thought emergents only liked red letters in the Bible..?
Anyhew…
The Colossians reference in context, using good hermeneutics
The greek word reconcile here means to change or exchange. It is primarily focused on the change in a sinner’s relationship to God. Man is reconciled to God when God restores a man to right relationship with him through Jesus Christ. This verse does not teach that all will believe, rather, that all (including all that has been created, even demons)will submit, or, as Paul puts it in Ephesians “will be put under foot” and in Phillippians “that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father”
Wow I think this sets a new record of useless over at the ODM’s site. I mean this takes a stretch of a stretch of an imagainary link. Usually they either stretch or make somethingg up, rarely both this bad at the same time. Usually I think “I guess I could see how someone somewhere misinformed could possibly make that point or connection” for this one I’m at a loss.
PB,
You also have to account that Paul is using similar language here, and elsewhere, that are in line with the teachings of his first rabbi, Gamaliel, regarding the concept of “tikkun olam” – the repairing of the whole world (which includes, as Paul notes in your citation, ALL things that were created). All of creation groans for the repair of the world, which was cemented through Jesus’ blood on the cross.
It is this concept – that the world and everything in it was created in it was once in shalom with God, and that His plan is to return it to that state – to which Paul refers, and which Bell and others reference. It goes beyond a statement of belief to a statement of action as a response to that belief. It also fits right in with the teaching of grace – we are saved so that we can do the mitzvot which move us in the direction of tikkun olam.
Chris:
None the less, it is not reconciliation in terms of salvation, that is, being reconciled, brought into agreement with God, which is only available to humans, and is only effective for those who repent and place their trust in Christ, in terms of man’s reconciliation.
In terms of the rest of all creation and mankind, the term is a term of submission, brought into alignment with the fact that all will bow and submit to Christ on that last day~unfortunately it will be too late.
Though the statement on CRN was pretty stupid, this is turning into a great discussion.
PB,
While it will be too late for those who have not accepted Jesus grace, the concept of creation being made “anew” does not necessarily imply (as many westerners assume) that it will be obliterated and replaced with something else. Rather, a “new heavens and new earth” might be new in the same sense that one who has accepted Christ is a “new creation” – the same molecules and matter, but a different Lord and a repaired relationship with Him.
What also gets lost in this focus on the end point is the breath of teaching in mitzvot, “good works”, and tikkun olam, which includes – but is not limited to – social justice. We have been given the keys to the kingdom, but in many cases, we ignore them. There are still places in this world where the last are not first, the hungry are not fed, the lame to not walk and the good news is not preached to the poor.
This is part and parcel of the work of the kingdom, but somewhere along the line, parts of it got pulled out and called “liberal” or “the social gospel” and shunted to the side, leaving only evangelism as “true” kingdom work. In reality, though, BOTH are required for the kingdom…
Going back to the OP – I found it odd that when I Googled and searched for connections between McConaughey and any part of Christianity, the most I found was a reference to his parents being Christians and a picture of him in a lawn chair reading “The Case for Christ”….
You and I are in agreement there, Chris
This reads like a discussion of the humor-impaired.
So the post on CRN was a joke then Ken? Is that what you’re saying?
Either way, we’ve moved on to important discussion points, humor or not. Why don’t you join in?
Joe
So the original post on CRN was a joke?
Man I am so dense! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHA that WAS funny.
But the discussion that has ensued has been helpful.
I think what’s more disturbing is why, if it was only a joke, we all took him so seriously? Perhaps it’s a past history that drew people to expect something like this from CRN?
Kind of “Boy who cried wolf”-ish, I suppose…
Something worth asking. Not saying it’s true.
Joe
How does one distinguish between humor and “fact” on CRN?
Perhaps the whole “editor” thing should be considered a joke as well.
This might be a bit off point, or not; maybe a lot off point–but isn’t this entire thread supposed to be ‘off point’? Isn’t that the point? When I was growing up in the 80’s I was a headbanger–remember when MTV actually played videos on the Headbanger’s Ball? To this day, I still thoroughly enjoy the sounds of ‘thrash’ and ‘heavy’ metal guitars, drums, etc.
Well, somewhere along the line, a friend named Mark introduced me to a band called Petra (I saw Bob Hartman’s name mentioned above). I listened to Petra with as much enthusiasm as I listened to Metallica and Twisted Sister. When one is a child, there is all sorts of rebellion and angst and often times it really is not about the lyrics at all. Be that as it may, I have this testimony–despite all the Bob Larsons out there–if it had not been for Bob Hartman’s Petra I might not have survived the 80’s. Man I thank God for Bob Hartman.
It was because of the lyrics–that at the time I didn’t know were simply spilling over with Scripture–of those songs that I survived and that the Lord can use me today in his service of preaching the Good News that we are saved by His Grace!
Well, like I said, this is way off point and has nothing to do with the post. It is sort of a non-sequitor way of giving a little testimony to how important music is in the life of God’s people. I saw Bob Hartman’s name and I thought someone might be interested to know that back in his day, he was considered a rebel. I guess we can blame all the problems in the church today on the fact that Bob Hartman decided Lucas McGraw would be a good idea and that it was a good idea to mix the words ‘Jesus loves you’ through a synthesizer. If only Bob Hartman hadn’t seen the need to mix Scripture with guitars and drums! It’s all his fault.
Is that non-sequitor enough?
thanks for the space,
jerry
Jerry,
I must confess, I was a Petra fan back in the day. Bob Hartman was an excellent guitarist, too. Unfortunately, Petra was a band that probably tried to keep itself alive for too long.
Phil,
I agree. As sad as I was to hear of their retirement, I was also glad. There’s only so many compilation albums one can buy. I think ‘Captured in Time & Space’ is one of the best they ever made. Greg Volz’ vocals were spot on. Glad there’s another pethead out there.
jerry
Iggy (or whoever else wishes to respond),
pastor boy does bring up a good question. Do you (personally) feel that MM needs us to ‘reach out’ to him? Why or why not?
PB,
Jesus quoted without address… as did all of those in the bible when they quoted the OT… I hope that you will go and search it out yourself… addresses also sometime mess with context as people stop in chapter one of Romans not realizing that it continues the same thought into chapter 2 for example.
I assume you know the bible well enough to take a phrase or verse I quote and cut and paste it in a search engine and find it and study it…
I also read and memorize in context of book, chapter and then verse… so a verse to me is part of the whole thought and not just a thought unto itself… as in when Jesus cried “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” He was referencing Psalms 22 as a whole and not just the first verse… as the whole speaks of the Cross.
Remember, chapters and verses are added to the original text and not part of the original text… Paul never wrote Romans 1:6… He wrote the whole book of Romans… and it contains that one verse.
Again, in preaching I will reference, in conversation I assume most are smart enough to find the scripture if they want or need to…
iggy
Inq,
If I was in his circle I believe I would… if he seems open to the Gospel then we should share it with him…
I am not sure why you are asking this… can you explain why this is even a question that we reach out or not?
iggy
Ken,
So mocking those who may be searching in a time when God may be bringing them to think about salvation is humorous to you? Wow… I think that is mocking God!
LOL!
iggy
Jerry, MTV playing music? OK, now you’re just being silly!
Seriously, any kudos you wanna give to Bob Hartman and/or Petra (or thanks to God for them) on one of my posts is most welcome!!
To all former Pet-Heads,
Even as a slobbering fanboy, I will admit that Petra seemed to have stretched it too long for a while there. But their last studio album (”Jekyll and Hyde”) and the live album that followed (”Farewell”) were far and away the best of the John Schlitt era, and some of Petra’s best work of any lead singer’s era. Some young whippersnappers at inpop, who grew up on Petra, reminded them how they used to sound.
In short, they finished strong.
Jerry, Petra played a big part in my life too.
Brendt,
I remember being 16 in the front row at a Petra concert (right adjacent to the speakers). I’m not sure my hearing has returned to this day… It was so cool
What? Speak up!
Loved Petra back in the day. Of course I had to hide the fact that I listened to them. I guess that means they were heard and not seen.
Ha! I forgot about that song! Even Petra elevated orthopraxy above orthodoxy. Take that, fundies!
(for all you Petra-deprived folks, the actual song was “Seen and Not Heard”, and it basically said something like “sometimes God’s children should seen and not heard” in the chorus.)
I always liked the backmasking just before Judas’ Kiss…
Bob Larson was such a hoot. He still make mel laugh when I’m in warm-ups and play through the Am walkup into Stairway…
Friends,
I saw Petra in 1986, first tour with John Schlitt, Back to the Street. I saw them in Pittsburgh at the Syria Mosque ballroom. DeGarmo & Key opened. It was my first concert ever (I later saw Stryper at the same place). After that, I was a concert freak. I bought two t-shirts that night and wore them until they literally fell apart.
I mean this seriously, one of the nicest things anyone ever did for me was introduce me to Petra. When I think back on the lyrics that Bob Hartman wrote, and how overflowing they were with direct Scripture quotations–I am overwhelmingly thankful to God. I may not have spent a lot of time with an open Bible in front of me during my difficult teenaged years, but thanks to Petra I not only ‘read’ Scripture, but I memorized it!
I agree, Jekyll and Hyde was a great CD. The guitars were vintage Hartman and some of Schlitt’s best vocals. Ahh, I can’t believe how old I’m getting. I feel like just yesterday Beat the System was coming out and I wasn’t yet over Not of This World. Well, thank God for Petra and Bob Hartman and Louis Weaver and the gang. I’m finding some newer bands are really filling that Petra void. Bands like Kutless and David Crowder Band are phenomenal.
Thanks for reminiscing with me. I lost track of my friend Mark after he graduated High School a couple years ahead of me and I haven’t had anyone to talk with about Petra. Tonight, I’m breaking out some Petra and taking a trip. Wow, thanks friends for making this a really nice afternoon! (And thanks for not telling me I’m going to hell for listening to rock & roll with a Christian edge. It is amazing where grace can be found when the eyes and ears are opened.)
In Christ,
jerry
Hey,
Steve Camp even did!
“Don’t tell them Jesus loves them, until you are ready to love them too.”
But then he repented of actually walking the talk…
I guess we have our own priorities…
I met with the second line up who we had play at our school when i was in high school… Greg Volz in warm ups sounded very plain… but then they hit the stage!
It was a cool time… Sweet Comfort Band’s van broke down… I did not get to meet them but our church helped them get it fixed… Then there was Prodigal… and Randy Matthews and Joe English who asked us to bring all our drugs to the front of the stage and give our lives to Jesus… then took our drugs to his motel room and partied down… (sad but true as he confessed this)
iggy