The ODMs try alot of schemes to try to trap Rick Warren. Most are ridiculously far-fetched and incredibly illogical. This one is borderline sinful. The title of this post (found both on the author’s website and C?N) is False Teaching: Rick Warren Encourages Lying to Children. They took a letter from Warren to pastors explaining how to deal with staff members who have fallen. They overlook the entire letter, and focus on this statement

Children have a fragile faith and often idolize their leaders. Parents should be careful not to talk about fallen staff in front of children so they don’t lose heart. If asked, you should simply say “They resigned,” That’s all children need to know.

They claim that he is telling parents to lie to their kids with this statement. Can someone point out the lying here? Or maybe this author is suggesting that we should tell our children, “He looked at naked ladies in a strip bar and had sex with them.” Telling a kid that a staff member resigned is far from lying, in any sense of the word. Now, there are two options here. Either Ginger Taylor is just incredibly ignorant and unscrupulous in her dealings with children, or she has an agenda that needs to be proven. My guess is a mixture of the two.

  • Share/Bookmark
This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 9th, 2008 at 9:08 pm and is filed under Christian Living, Editor, Ken Silva, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, PD/SS, What Can You Say?. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+/- Collapse/Expand All

36 Comments(+Add)

1   Neil    
January 9th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

In seminary I had a prof – my favorite prof – one day he came in and told us that his young daughter’s pet rabbit died. He described the “funeral” they had in the backyard. Of course she asked is she would see the rabbit again in heaven. My prof said: I scanned all my biblical and theological training, thought through the options they gave – then I lied to her…

I don’t think any of us held that against him.

2   Ginger Taylor    http://dailydiscernment.wordpress.com
January 10th, 2008 at 4:28 am

Chris,

I am right here… if you have any questions about me, feel free to ask. I am happy to offer you what ever you are looking for.

I have a long history of blogging, so if you are looking for information on me, feel free to explore http://adventuresinautism.com

I have to say, I think your post above is pretty hostile and completely mischaracterizes what I wrote.

Again.. I am trying to take a critical look at the message that Warren is sending. He is writing a post on what to do when pastors are REMOVED due to sin. I don’t have problems with the rest of the article, but the idea that children should be told that they resigned.

That is why I am only focusing on that section.

Removal and resignation are not the same thing. If someone was fired, and you say they quit, you are saying something that didn’t happen. It is false testimony. It is lying.

Can you tell me what part of my argument (and I wrote a lot, so there is a lot to choose from) did not seem to fall together for you?

“Either Ginger Taylor is just incredibly ignorant and unscrupulous in her dealings with children, or she has an agenda that needs to be proven.”

This is pretty harsh. Where is that coming from? God calls us to go to one another and try to work things out before offering that kind of rebuke.

I am absolutely open to correction on all this. If there is something illogical or unbiblical about what I have written, I need to be open to hearing it and amending where I am wrong.

If I don’t, I can’t really criticize Warren for not accepting correction on his writing.

Let me know if you want me to respond to any specific questions.

Ginger

3   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 5:54 am

Ginger,

Removal and resignation are not the same thing. If someone was fired, and you say they quit, you are saying something that didn’t happen. It is false testimony. It is lying.

As a father of a 2 year old and a 4year old, I can tell you they are not sophisticated to even understand the difference between fired, quit or resignation. Even as a child is in their teens they most likely do not even need to know details in situation such as how and why a pastor steps down. Most likely the rumor mill will take place anyway. In that one should sit down and discuss what happened on the level the child understands. I think that one need address the child according to their developmental stage.

If I was to say that my pastor no longer is pastoring, my 2 year old would most likely not even understand at all let alone really care (and she is pretty advanced) and my 4 year old would understand only that the pastor is no longer going to our church.

Yes, the scripture states to not lie or bear false witness… but as far as lying, it is meant in the way to harm the other. To add to your trouble, Rahab lied about not knowing where the Hebrew “spies” were as she hid them on her roof… and God credited that action as an act of faith. So it seems that to lie to protect may have some biblical basis.

Am I stating “lying is not a sin”? I believe it is if it harms another. But, tell me, I bet your own husband states you look beautiful when you know you do not… and do you hold him to the same standard you are holding Rick Warren? I truly doubt you do.

If so then I suggest taking care of your own house first and rebuke your husband the next time you ask if that dress makes you look fat.

Rick is not stating the type of lie that you are accusing him of. In fact most children do not even need to know the things that happen. A child does not comprehend what adultery is unless he sees his parents divorce and then they will blame themselves even when told it is not their fault.

So to insist on tell a child such things to me seems that you care little of the innocence of a child. I think that is more egregious than telling a “lie” which is not even really a lie.

Often in business a person is told to either give their resignation or be fired… though technically they are still fired, they are allowed to rewign to save face. This happens quite often so it seems that you do not even understand that happens in the secular world as it can in the church.

I hope you consider this in the spirit it is given. I hold nothing against you other than I disagree with your assessment and I think that sometimes the truth can do more harm to a child than to let them know only what they need to know… and even that can be softened for the sake of the child.

iggy

4   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 5:58 am

I also posted this on her blog after reading the whole thing at Gingers blog…

Ginger,

As I read through all this, I see you have an agenda against Rick Warren and really do not seem to concerned for the truth yourself…

Do not lie to yourself that this is all altruistic and for the children… be honest, you seem to hate Rich Warren.

iggy

I hope she will be honest and look at her own heart as she uses children to push her own agenda against Rick Warren.

iggy

5   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 7:20 am

Ginger,

I have to say, I think your post above is pretty hostile and completely mischaracterizes what I wrote.

I’m not sure why you’re addressing me (Nathan wrote this post), but you might peruse the other response article (here – both Phil and Nathan wrote responses to your article), there has been a good bit of response to your earlier comment.

Some key points I would cite from there:

In many many churches when a pastor is fired, they all allow him to say he resigned. They even accept a written resignation. To say Warren is advocating dishonesty is a stretch at best.

This has been my experience, as well. As another commenter cited, this seems to be the case at least 9 of 10 times that a staff member is asked to leave. Having been on leadership teams in the past, I can say for a fact that both in the church and in the business world (and academia, for that matter), common practice is to give the offending party a chance to “save face” by tendering resignation.

Having read Warren’s article, this also seems to be the dominant context in which he is writing.

Neil, though, gets to the heart of one of your arguments:

Warren does not seem to be open to correction.

That’s pretty long leap from “He won’t take my advice” to “not open to correction… ‘course we often see what we’re look’n for.

M.G., though, touches on your primary thesis:

The post was rather enlightening. I’m inclined to agree that 9 times out of 10, when a pastor sins, the end-game is resignation instead of firing.

That begs the question, what about that 10th time? Is Rick Warren counseling people to lie to their children? Or in those instances where the spiritual leader is fired and dragged from the church kicking and screaming, do you think Rick Warren would want parents to use their best judgment, and say something like, “Well, Bobby, Pastor Smith wasn’t right for the Church, so we asked him to leave us.”

[...]

And this is where we enter my specialty. In graduate school for philosophy, we discussed the idea of being a *charitable reader*. It means assuming that a person means the sensible thing, the wiser idea, the more coherent thought. We agreed that philosophy is easier when we read charitably and give other writers the benefit of the doubt. Communication is meaningless if we’re engaged in a never-ending game of Gotcha! (And really, isn’t that the whole point of CRN and Slice? It’s just a huge game to trap people. It doesn’t matter, even, if truth gets in the way.)

If you think you “got!” Rick Warren, congrats. I’ll tell you, though, that the whole thing just strikes me as pedantic, pointless, and more interested in bringing him down than raising children up.

Phil followed this up with:

I read through the whole piece, and I thought that you ignored the whole thrust of the piece and took the one sentence that could somewhat be construed as a negative. Even that’s a stretch.

The fact is we are first and foremost to love one another as Christians. I think a big part of that is being charitable and not assuming the worst. The problems is that with Warren people never give him the benefit of a doubt. He’s always assumed to be the villain.

I’m not sure I could make these folks’ points any better than they already have…

6   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 7:44 am

Ginger,

I do not know your motivation for writing this particular article, but I would also add that when you make accusations of sin against another Christian based upon an uncharitable reading of their material, you have the potential of fueling the fires of the gossipmongers (like Slice and CR?N) who make it their business to lie, mischaracterize and slander other Christians – so whether that was your intent or not, it is an end result of your careless accusation…

7   Truthmatters    
January 10th, 2008 at 8:27 am

I read both Warren’s Ginger’s stuff, and I have to say that I do see an agenda here, but it’s from you guys, not Ginger. It’s very clear that Warren is talking about someone who (his words) “must be removed because of some sin”. And it may be true that they ‘allowed’ that person to resign (which would be disingenuous at best), that was not the implication of the article. So, after going to Ginger’s blog, she is correct in her assessment. It seems the agenda here is to allow Rick Warren to get away with anything, because you don’t like those sites which call him to account on his statements. And while it may be true that some discernment sites go too far in accusing people like Warren, we shouldn’t go too far in defending him when he’s wrong about something.

8   Joe Martino, Grand Rapids Mi (or G-Rap)    http://joemartino.name
January 10th, 2008 at 8:53 am

Imagine that! Somebody named their child “truthmatters!” That’s unbelievable!

9   Matt    
January 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am

Somehow its ok for Ken Silva to lie but when Warren says something that could be misconstrued as encouraging to lie, its bad. Just checking.

10   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
January 10th, 2008 at 9:08 am

Somehow its ok for Ken Silva to lie but when Warren says something that could be misconstrued as encouraging to lie, its bad. Just checking.

Its all about which team you’re on, not what they actually say or do at any given time.

11   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 10th, 2008 at 9:27 am

Ginger,
“Removal and resignation are not the same thing. If someone was fired, and you say they quit, you are saying something that didn’t happen. It is false testimony. It is lying.”
This is not true at all! You are the one who is mis-representing Rick Warren and it is sad!
I know you are a therapist but have you ever been a pastor before? Have you ever run a business?
My husband has been in church ministry for ten years! A lot of times even when the church feels it is best for one of the staff members to move on they will ask them for their resignation so they can find another job. Even though, by all intents and purposes they are being let go.
I use to run a business for a lady for several years. We were pretty close. She wanted to get out of the business so she decided to sell. She begin talking to me about my future. Through many conversations I resigned. You could say I was fired. Depending on the situation both parties can come to an agreement about ones need to no longer work for a company. She respected me and my work, she had no intentions on ruining me.
From my experiences in churches, very few of them actually fire people because of the uproar and gossip it causes the person are typically asked to give their resignation. It is just the way it is done.
Nathan did not mis-represent you. I read your page. It is sad, that you are mis-representing Rick Warren and that you are reading into his intentions and motives.

12   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 10th, 2008 at 9:33 am

It’s interesting to me, Jim from Old Truth goes over there and calls himself, “Ginger’s Friend” or some other thing and “tattles on us.” There are days where this whole thing makes me sick. Who does that? Hi Jim!~!!

13   Neil    
January 10th, 2008 at 9:38 am

Truthmatters,

Everyone has an agenda – so that line is just redundant.

Letting Warren get away with anything – hardly, stick around and you’ll see us post or comment “against” Warren.

Neil

14   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 10th, 2008 at 9:40 am

Iggy,
I just saw this line. That’s beautiful!

To add to your trouble, Rahab lied about not knowing where the Hebrew “spies” were as she hid them on her roof… and God credited that action as an act of faith. So it seems that to lie to protect may have some biblical basis.

15   Neil    
January 10th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Truthmatters,

Here is a brief summary of the issues with Ginger’s hit piece:

1. The Title – inflammatory at best. I guess we could write a post saying “Correy Ten Boom Lies to the Government and Encouraged Children to Do So As Well”

2. The name dropping – In reading her one comment here and her one page blog post I saw three times where she dropped “John’s Hopkins educated” – Sometimes when you say something so loudly it becomes counter-productive.

3. Twisting Warren’s use of “idolize” into “idol worship.” The former a figure of speech, the latter a true sin, the whole thing a poor use of Scripture.

4. Violation M. G.’s “charity in reading” approach. Talk about an agenda, only someone who already hates their brother on Christ would consider this a valid attack on Warren.

Neil

16   Neil    
January 10th, 2008 at 9:48 am

Ginger,

You wrote: I am absolutely open to correction on all this. If there is something illogical or unbiblical about what I have written, I need to be open to hearing it and amending where I am wrong.

You may consider my post above a response to what was “Illogical” and “unbiblical” about your post.

Neil

17   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 10:08 am

And while it may be true that some discernment sites go too far in accusing people like Warren, we shouldn’t go too far in defending him when he’s wrong about something.

Actually, one of our writers (who is from Saddleback) wrote a piece which took RW to task for a bit of proof-texting last year.

In this particular case, though, Warren is not encouraging lying to children.

18   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 10:36 am

I lie quite often! Usually it’s right after my wife gets dressed and then asks me, “does this dress make me look fat?”

19   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 11:56 am

Neil,
He was my favorite prof as well and that story is exactly what I thought of when I read this.

Now, everyone that let(s) their kids believe in Santa, repent!

There is a third option. You can tell your kids they do not need to know right now. It is the same answer you might give if they want a detailed description of some profanity or other thing they overheard or if they ask you specific things about your past. Sometimes, navigating around or away from the issue helps to protect their innocence and purity.

20   troy    http://www.sheepandgoats.blogspot.com
January 10th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

I have a technical degree from ITT…that makes me technically sound.
We don’t lie to our children about Santa. Never have. Never will. We also don’t lie to our children if we see a crack-head or a prostitute. We tell them about the lifestyles of these people and that this is how they ended up like this. I would do the same for a removed pastor. I would explain to them AT THE KIDS’ LEVEL of understanding. I would explain to them how they may have ended up in these situations and how the sin draws/pushes them away from God. We’ve always been very honost and open with them…once again, at the level of understanding condusive to the age.

21   Bruce Gerencser    http://www.rethinkingchurchlife.org
January 10th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Here is the comment I posted over at the discernment site. Keep in mind I am using “lie” in the context they are trying to use it. (I think?)

So we are to always “tell the truth”?

Your overweight wife asks “Do i look fat in this dress?” Do we say YES? Or do we consider what it is she really wants to hear, “that we we still love them and accept them as they are” so we say “You look fine, honey!”

The Bible has illustrations where lying was used for the greater good. (not that I am agreeing with the notion that Rick Warren is promoting lying)

What is the greater good? Do our children deserve a full answer to every question? Are we not to hide our brother’s sin?

I have lied to my kids and I will continue to do so when the situation warrants. There are times to withhold information for the sake of the child or the other people involved.

As a long time pastor I have seen a lot of sin. I know a lot of dirt on people. Awful things. Hurtful things. Does everyone deserve an answer when asking about “so and so? No!

I have a serious debilitating condition that renders me incapacitated on many days. I am in great pain. When people ask “How are you?” I say”fine.” Most days that is a lie. But, people are just really being polite. They don’t REALLY want to know how you are. (and I don’t want to tell them either)

22   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

I just posted another comment there since Ginger took the time to address me at her blog.

Ginger,

You have only given one side and still have not answered this one…

So will your husband be accursed the next time you ask if the dress your wearing makes you look fat and he lies and says “no.”?

That is the sort of “lie” we are dealing with and you are stating leads to some sort of damnation…

I suspect you do not take that as a lie but as you wake up with rhino breath and you hair matted from sleeping and you are in that tattered night coat, you husband states that “You look beautiful this morning.” and you know better, again you take that as an act of love not that he is a lair…

So again, you have an agenda against Rick Warren.

Understand this, I am not a RW fan, I was part of a PDC that had both good and bad things about it. Yet, I think so many seem to go overboard in discrediting Rick. In that I often do not even see room for reconciliation unless he totally tows the accusers theological lines.

I appreciate you not wanting to be accursed, but please leave room for Grace and the truth that nothing can separate us from the Love of God. The Cross took our sins and the Resurrection gave us His Life… trust that and you you will not be accursed.

be blessed,
iggy

It seems that she has yet to decide if her husband is accursed for not telling her the truth if she looks fat in that dress… I hope she can see that she is overboard.

Now, I do think there are legit things that Rick Warren is doing that need addressed, yet nothing that seems to be leading anyone to be accursed.

iggy

23   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

I would agree with those who are saying that it would be a rare situation for a pastor to be fired outright. Most of the time, because of the way churches are set up, a pastor is asked to resign. This may just be a technicality, but even so, it’s been what I’ve seen.

Even if a pastor is fired, I don’t necessarily disagree with what Warren is saying. You could say “he had to leave” or something like that.

Kids don’t need to know the details. Actually, I think there is a real danger in telling kids details even in terms they do understand, because as others have said, kids aren’t dumb. They may have some level of understanding, but what they don’t understand, they will “fill in”. These kids tell other kids at school, and a pastor who leaves because of an affair (which is bad enough already) is now thought to have left because of cheating on his wife, selling drugs, stealing money, etc. This gets around the community, and angry people start calling the church.

This may seem far-fetched, but I know of things like this happening. I think the main thing is that so many people are so quick to believe negative information about churches.

I think Warren’s advice isn’t advocating brushing stuff under the table, but just giving short, to the point answers. Many times this will satisfy a kid’s curiosity, and he won’t ask anymore. If we give more details, their little minds will start running.

24   Bruce Gerencser    http://www.rethinkingchurchlife.org
January 10th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

I raised six kids as preacher’s kids. 6 Churches, 3 states. 3 New Church starts.

In two cases (older churches) we had real problems. Horrible problems. Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Did I say Ugly? (some of it my fault)

They heard it all, saw it all, and remember it all. I regret exposing my kids to some of the things I did. They sat like good little preacher’s kids in business meetings where their father was shredded by hateful, mean people. They saw their father lose his temper and walk out.

My three oldest are 23,25 and 28. I see in them fruit of all of this. Their distrust of the organized Church and the power brokers in them. I now wish I had sheltered them from all this stuff. Sent them to Dairy Queen while everyone shared their “love” for each other. I should have sent them outside to play rather than allowing them to be in earshot range when “so and so” came over to ream me out over this, that and the other.

Did I ever lie to them? Yep. Dad, what did so and so want? Nothing. Dad, who was that who called? Oh no one.

Is there a good age to expose our kids to Church politics? Are they not just as impressionable, if not more so, as teens than as little children?

I am convinced that if the average parishioner knew what the average pastor went through perhaps they would be more understanding. Perhaps they would see the necessity of sheltering children from some things even if this means telling a lie (defined as anything less than all the truth, in every circumstance, situation)

Bruce

25   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 10th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Bruce,

I see that “Therapists” like Ginger mean well, yet I see also this inclination to expect a child be them 6 years old or as a teen need still be a child. I do not mean we should say “Pastor Barney went to Disney so can’t preach any more.” if Pastor Barney murdered someone…

I see that a child can be told enough… and I see many “Ginger’s” who think full disclosure is what they need. To me we are entrusted with a child to love and equip them but not to over burden them.

But, really, all i saw over there was an anti Rick Warren agenda and a bunch of “adda boys” who wanted to let her know that they hate him to.

That is the sickest part of all this that a therapist hides a thin veil of hate behind protecting children…

iggy

26   Kent    
January 11th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

I guess from the analogy that it’s just fine to lie to a child about someone resigning, this will give justificaionl for all the well meaning kids out there to “fudge the truth a little too”. So, when little Junior get’s kicked off the football team for poor grades, he can just tell his parents he quit the team. I’m quite certain his parents will thank him for “protecting them” Ahhh, what a warm & fuzzy the little lies give us, and save us all from such trauma. Who is the father of lies? take a look at Jn 8:44.

27   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 11th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Kent,
Withholding information is not the same thing as lying. Otherwise, I hope you go through tax returns line by line with your children just for the sake of full disclosure. Don’t want them growing up thinking you were a crook!

28   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 11th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Kent,

You are going apples and oranges here.

Have you ever been given the choice to be fired or resign? The end result is the same… yet, one can be told to resign or be fired.

So, then you think a 6 year old needs to know that “The pastor went to a strip club and had sex. In fact he paid $xxx and had her perform xxx sex on him. He then had her do xxxx and xxxx while he xxxx her. He then bought some booze and drove home drunk to this wife and kids.”

I hear it now… “Mommy what is xxx sex?” or “Can I have some money and the car keys, dad?”

Is that better?

The point is that to say resigned or fired means the same thing today in most places. One is just nicer.

So, tell me honestly would you go into all that detail to a 6 year old?

iggy

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 11th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Kent,

Nazi’s are at your door and you have 10 Jew hidden in your basement… they ask you are their any Jews hidden in your house?

What would you say?

According to you, you will turn them in.

iggy

iggy

30   Kent    
January 11th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

“I see that a child can be told enough… and I see many “Ginger’s” who think full disclosure is what they need.”

Hmm, and where did Ginger say “full disclosure” was necessary. You can be truthful without having to disclose all the specifics.

31   Kent    
January 11th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

“So, tell me honestly would you go into all that detail to a 6 year old”?

No, but I wouldn’t lie.

32   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 11th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

You can be truthful without having to disclose all the specifics.

Which is exactly the point it seems Warren is making.

33   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Kent,

I guess from the analogy that it’s just fine to lie to a child about someone resigning, this will give justificaionl for all the well meaning kids out there to “fudge the truth a little too”.

First off I do not see the connection between the two as how is resigning or being fired that much different?

Also, again, most scenarios in this case is working toward restoration and reconciliation… so I would guarantee that when they told him to step down… he gave his resignation…

So, how do you define “step down”? Does it mean to be fired?

The point I see missed is that there is so much thought being put into this as “a lie” when no one knows what was stated in the office the morning the pastor confessed his sin and the discipline was given.

I guess if you feel the need to state that the Pastor was fired, and then want to deal with the can of worms that opens with the kids, go ahead do it. But, for what purpose and what good will it bring?

iggy

34   Kent    
January 11th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

“I guess if you feel the need to state that the Pastor was fired, and then want to deal with the can of worms that opens with the kids, go ahead do it. But, for what purpose and what good will it bring?”

Fist of all my four or six year old don’t even know what “resign” means. If I tell them that he voluntarily stepped down, from my perspective, that’s lying. So yes, I would tell them that he was fired, for doing something wrong and I wouldn’t have to go any further than that. As for what good will it bring? it will show my children there is actually consequince for sin, even in adults. Also, they are well aware that they can trust in what I tell them is truth.

35   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 11th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Let’s see – if the church allows the guy to resign (which is 90+% of the time), it’s not lying to say that “he left” or “he resigned”. It’s a far (and uncharitable) stretch to say that, using the hypotheticals present, that Warren is “encouraging parents to lie.”

You’re basically creating straw-men and then slapping RW with them out of your historical hatred of him (demonstrated pretty much through every comment you’ve made on this site, to date).

36   Neil    
January 11th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

We can nit-pick all we like about what is lying and what is appropriate and nazi’s and jews, and blah blah blah…

but the bottm line is, the original was a hit piece designed to be inflamatory.