Loving our community
I have to admit after the little dust up concerning the concert that will be happening at my church I had considered canceling. After all, I’d rather spend a Friday night at home with my wife and son, and I’m sure there will be plenty of people who feel that the building is the church and I’ll end up getting an earful. But after seeing the reaction Ingrid received from the band and its fans I realized that I couldn’t do it. Its obvious that Ingrid has made these guys feel extremely unloved, and canceling will only reinforce that idea. So in the name of loving my neighbor, which includes this band, and their fans (not to mention the kid organizing it all) the show must go on.
On an unrelated note I will point out that Ingrid has reported that the organizer is a member of my church. That is not true. While I realize she was given bad information and wasn’t maliciously doing so, this is another example of sloppy reporting that could have easily been corrected with a simple email to me.
January 4th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Tim,
To be fair, her response was very loving to this individual who called her, in direct opposition to the fans who in the midst of being Christian used some un-Christlike language. Her concern is clear: That we who call ourselves shepherds are doing a poor job of shepherding our sheep, which does include how we speak, what we preach on, and what we approve (I believe you are giving tacit approval to the music if you allow them to use the building which houses the body of Christ)
I note that she gave this young man the Gospel, which is a question I have been wanting to ask: How are you going to take advantage of all those kids coming into your sanctuary? How are you going to present the Gospel to them? Will they come out of that place influenced by the church (the invisible body of Christ) or what they heard coming out of the death metal bands in the church building?
By the way, I LOVE Julie’s responses on the other stream about this. Kudos, Julie, you were truly the voice of reason. And your writing is out of this world.
January 4th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Maybe they’ll remember…Hey…the Christians let us use their church to play our music, which we love. Those people are great…I wonder why they’re the way they are….? Maybe I’ll talk to that pastor guy….
January 4th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Before you say “that’s a stretch” or “We shouldn’t let it just go like that…”
You don’t know what God’s planned.
January 4th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
No, she really didn’t. Oh I understand she thinks she did, and the words she used would have sounded to her like the gospel, but as far as I can tell the only message she delivered was “you are Satan’s bride”.
What Ingrid and many of the watchkitties don’t get is you have to earn the right to give the gospel if you want people to really hear it. Buying server space from which to browbeat people isn’t enough.
I refer you to Joe C’s comment. I’m not looking to preacher-bomb these people. I’m looking to create relationships, and represent Christ in a way that doesn’t look like Pharisaical condemnation.
January 4th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Joe C,
That is basically the story how I heard the gospel and received it.
iggy
January 4th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Ironically, me too.
Back when I first joined the military, a chapel let me play in their praise band because I’m a pianist and they needed a piano player (and I was DYING to start playing Piano again. I would have probably played piano with Ozzy Ozborne). I thought…”man I better not let them figure out I’m not really Christian, or they won’t let me play anymore…”. Well I kinda figured out they knew I wasn’t Christian…and they still let me play… Of all places in a Christian worship band, a church service for believers!!! In retrospect, how many of us would allow a non-believer to play in our worship band? Even I wouldn’t allow that now a days (I lead worship at a miliary chapel now where I’m stationed)…what a hypocrite I am. I know….
I don’t think it was the best call on their part, but it saved my sorry butt, that’s for sure. Just goes to show you, you don’t know just how powerful, amazing, and outside the box God really is.
Well eventually from sitting through all of those church services, a wonderful witness from the drummer, and the lyrics of the songs, I came to faith in Christ and was saved.
Go figure.
Tim, if God has put this on your heart to do, there is a reason. DO IT. There could be a me, or an Iggy, or so many others of us in that crowd or in those bands.
Joe
January 4th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Joe C,
And all those who state they dislike us, shudder that God would love such as us! LOL!
Be blessed,
iggy
January 4th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Tim Reed,
I am sorry that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever, and I do mean ever, heard! You have to earn the right to tell the gospel. Where do you get that from?? I am trying to hold back but that is scary. I mean it. If she told that young man he is a sinner and that Christ is a saviour then how is that not the gospel. That is truly the good news and you never have to earn the right to tell people the good news. If we had to earn the acceptance of the world to preach the gospel then no one would be saved. Luckily this is not what God does. He is a physician and literally pulls out are heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh without our permission nor our acceptance of it. God power of salvation is the gospel. If you could please explain more what you mean?
Also Tim I respect your conviction to keep the event and show your neighbor love. This is great, but how are you going to do it. Because if you do it by not bothering them then that is not love. Love is painful and can hurt. God’s love is painful. It cost our Christ His life, it cost us or natural lives. We have to kill ourselves and this does hurt. Then God’s love disciplines us. Love cost a lot, it is not mere acceptance and toleration but action. As DC talk said love is a verb:}
January 4th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
How about from the fact that rolling up on someone the way Ingrid did resulted in them not hearing the gospel?
You can believe whatever you want, but you’re not going to be effective until you start earning the right to tell someone the gospel by being in their lives. Unfortunately that’s a hard truth that many Christians don’t want to face.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Let’s look at the first sermon ever. Peter how did he earn the right to preach the gospel? He told them you killed Jesus, you did it. Not very loving. But hey everyone said you are right we did what can we do. Not that is amazing grace. Taking those responsible for the death of His Son and saying I forgive you now you are my son. Every christian should say that. Please explain more how you “earn” the right to tell people about Jesus. Apart from Ingrid would you have told them that they fall short of God’s glory but God manifested His love in His Son. Or would you wait till you “earned it” Please explain what earn means? We I hear it I think mainly people what until they are accepted by whomever it may be. So basically you have to wait until they think you are cool. So expound earn?? Thanks Tim;}
January 4th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
I just find it funny that Ingrid has not retracted her false statments… though she stated they are not a “Christian” band, she still found a way to slam them and Tim… such grace! LOL!
iggy
January 4th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Tim,
What happens if before you get to build a relationship with them, earning the right to share the good news, they die. I mean, lets say there is a 100 car pileup ( a stretch, I know) and these kids all die without hearing the Gospel? This may sound really dramatic, Tim, but their blood would be on your hands. If a church in my community was sponsoring such an event, I would be there, not to protest, but as a witness to the Gospel.
I used to buy into the relationship evangelism garbage, and I made a lot of friends (I am a pretty personable guy) but failed miserably when it came to winning them to the Lord. Admitedly, I was afraid of losing a friendship. Wasn’t it Rob Bell who said in Bullhorn Guy “Loving with an agenda isn’t really love, is it?” Thats how it seemed to me. Just like Ingrid, I can share my faith with a stranger on a street, I don’t need to build a relationship, just a quick rapport.
I strongly encourage you, Tim, to use the death imagery to draw the attention of these kids to the fact that 10 out of 10 die, and they need to deal with that. What is going to happen to them? Or don’t you believe in a literal Hell, where people who break God’s laws reside?
January 4th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
What in the world can possibly be wrong with her response, now? Are you guys straining at gnats (that aren’t even there, mind you?)
I thought her response was very gracious and genuine, and might go a long way in making a person consider, rather than your philosophy of preaching through “osmosis”… that’s not necessarily love.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Oh, and Tim, when you say Ingrid didn’t give him the Gospel, what did she give him?
How would you give the Gospel? What is the Gospel? Can you imagine that we have built a relationship and I come to you and tell you that I am afraid to die, do you know how I can get right with God so I can go to heaven?
January 4th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Kyle,
Lovely. Way to abuse the scriptures. You’ve essentially taken what you already believe and mashed the scriptures into it.
Obviously, somehow, someway Peter earned the right to give them the gospel since they asked “what shall we do”.
Uh, no. You wait until they know that you love them. I mean really love them. As defined, well, Biblically. That doesn’t mean you “love” them by brow beating them. It means you serve them. Jesus defined love as “greater love has no man than this, that he would give his life for his friend”. We see the love of Christ not just in giving his life, but also in washing feet.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I suppose I trust in the sovereignty of God more than you do.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Mostly a browbeating that ended in calling him the “bride of Satan”, because once you use that type of rhetoric, you can forget about communicating the time of day, much less good news.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Pastorboy, I want you to make a list right now of every person you know that is not in right relationship with Jesus Christ. Everyone. Now, have you told them about Jesus? Every one?
January 4th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Ah, the old fire insurance presentation of the Gospel. I hate this with a passion. It’s manipulative. It tries to motivate Christians with guilt, and non-Christians with fear. And Tim’s right, it totally neglects God’s leading. If we are obedient step-by-step as God leads us, don’t you think He’ll guide us into the conversations He wants us to have? I’ve found that a lot Christians spend a lot of time doing the right thing for the wrong reason.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
You make me proud to be wearing my PSU hoody
January 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
You do? Then why are you afraid to preach the Gospel?
Lets say that your building which houses your church was burning down due to pyrotechnics used by the death metal bands, and the people inside didn’t know it. They didn’t know they were going to burn to death in three minutes. You go in to warn them, as you should, but you can hear that they are having a real good time. You conclude that it would be better not to warn them, because it would not be loving to break up their fun.
That is about as logical as saying ‘I guess I believe in the sovereignty of God more than you’ That may make you feel better, and allow you to drink your Starbucks with a clear conscience, but God’s written revelation of Himself commands us to ‘preach the Gospel in season and out of season’ and that we ought to ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’
I hope that the sovereign mercy of God also extends to you and your disobedience to his call, Pastor. Christians are called to spread the Gospel to every creature- and we are ministers of the Gospel…are we to do any less? I pray that God in His mercy allows those kids to live, but can we really know when they will die? Thinking that you can is the height of irresponsibility and callousness towards God’s call.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
You are doing what you claim I am. Because they ask “what shall we do” you then assume that all of them must of been good buds, eh?? Yup Jesus and Peter and all of the other disciples where loved in Israel. Come on they asked because of conviction. Their eyes where opened through the proclamation of the gospel! So you have to what till you die to preach to them the gospel. Christ died for His friends no one can out do this love. It is our job to tell them of this great love. Now I am not talking of good works towards your neighbor I am simple taking about the proclamation of the gospel. This is still the craziest thing I have ever heard. There are so many people in the world that you will never be able to love enough and to gain their acceptance. Remember these are the enemies of God. So you would willing not proclaim the gospel to those you do not love nor accept you. You have such a shallow and exclusive gospel.
The second answer you give does not make sense.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Pastorboy,
I’m gonna take that as a no. If there is one person on your list that you haven’t told, then you need to step away from the keyboard and go find them right now. What if there is a meteor that falls out of space tonight (a stretch I know) and it hits a gas line down the street from their house and their entire block is blown to smithereens? Step away from the keyboard man! Step away!
January 4th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Oh my, sidestepping the question.
I do not want fear filled converts, I want to see tear filled converts who realize they have offended a good God, who is also a holy God who must judge sin.
Everyone that I have met in this town has either gotten a tract in their hand or a one to one verbal witness. Everyone in my family, my friends, my relationships have all heard the bad news- that they have broken God’s law, and they can pay the fine (death) for themselves, or place our trust in Christ and his sacrifice (the Good News). I have paid the price for doing this, but it is a price I am willing to pay. And Joe, everyone I know has heard the Gospel, that is why I go out purposefully to every person I meet in this town and give them a Gospel witness. I have witnessed in bars, Starbucks, the College campus, Wal-mart, the gas station, to telemarketers, and pizza delivery drivers. All to the Glory of God.
Does God have to keep leading you to obey a command he has already given? Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15- He has already commanded you and I and every person that claims Christ to go and make disciples- The command is there, already. The method? Go, baptize, teach all I have commanded you. (I wonder if the Message puts in “build relationships)
January 4th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
You don’t know a single person who hasn’t heard the gospel? I’m truly impressed.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Joe
Do not excuse sin because of the you see it in others. I am always convicted when I waste time and do not do something for Christ. Moody always every day told at least one person about the Christ.
So you say because other people don’t do it I won’t either.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Joe, sarcasm aside, my only purpose on this earth is to preach the Gospel. Your point is well taken, though it was written, I perceive, a little tongue in cheek. If there is anyone that you know that does not know the Gospel, you better get off your keyboard and go tell them. Real love is when you do that with people you know and love, and when you do it to perfect strangers.
By the way, part of my purpose being on the bloggosphere is evangelism.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Pastorboy,
You may say the gospel, but I doubt anyone hears it.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Tim
It is not our job to make them “hear it” We are to proclaim the truth in love and gentleness. That is the difference from a street preacher and a street hater like Phelps. They are street preacher is motivated by first of all love for God then love for people! We preach God converts. So you think you have to make them hear? Very exclusive and arrogant!
January 4th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
These statements are contradictory.
Here’s a quick question for you: when was the last time you allowed a perfect stranger to lecture you about the path to a non-Christian salvation? I never have, so I don’t expect other people to do so either.
Not really. Acting in a way in which my words have actual weight with someone isn’t arrogant.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
We will just go in circles for every so lets just leave it at that. I hope and pray you use this event for the glory of God. That Christ will be lifted up there so that He might draw all men unto Himself!
January 4th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Good for you Tim! Let them use your building! Satan uses people like Ingrid and Ken to destroy the church. (The body of Christ it is not a building!lol) Do you what you think is right! The greatest testimony we have to unbelievers is showing them love. Your critics seem to miss this! They are suppose to see the love of Christ in you! What a great way to show this bye letting them use a building! Nothing we have belong to us but everything belongs to God.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Tim said: “I suppose I trust in the sovereignty of God more than you do.”
I was hoping someone would say that—the fact that is was TIM makes it even better…and somewhat interesting. Amen, brother!
January 4th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Pastorboy said: “I mean, lets say there is a 100 car pileup ( a stretch, I know) and these kids all die without hearing the Gospel? This may sound really dramatic, Tim, but their blood would be on your hands.”
Let’s say that God “looks into the future” and sees that NONE of the 100 kids involved in the wreck were EVER going to be saved/receive/accept Christ. Now, who’s hands are bloody–if anyone?
January 4th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I knew someone would appreciate that.
January 4th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
I’m still waiting for anyone to tell me when the last time they allowed a stranger to lecture them about a non-Christian path to salvation and really considered what they said.
January 4th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Kyle,
With respect, I don’t really read your comments and your last one to me is a prime example of why.
January 4th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Loving our community. How? Love the Christian kids in your community by
1)giving them some excuse for getting permission to go to this concert. “But Mom, it’s at a CHURCH! It can’t be all that bad.” Or, “Hey, the groups might even be Christian! There are Christian groups like this, Mom, and they just try to hide it so they don’t scare away the non-Christians!”
2) giving them the excuse that they can “minister” to the unsaved - when in reality many of them are already immersed in this kind of music and if any of them are somehow hearing the still small voice of God or thinking about how Biblical principles apply to avoiding it, this kind of “support” from a church will just give them more reason to decide that that “voice” is some legalism from their past.
3) providing a venue where they can come and here and dance to words in which the god of this world delights. If we could begin to understand what that really means in the spiritual realm . . . .
Love the unsaved in your community by:
1) letting them see that the Christian kids enjoying this concert with them must truly approve of the themes of the songs.
2) not reacting to the lyrics of their songs as Christ would.
Continue your love for these kids, Christian and non-Christian, by preaching at any funerals of kids who have commited suicide because of the persistent voices in their heads promoting death.
May God save our children from such deception.
Tim,
You took your vulgar statement off the gaming site. Yet you will allow these horrible lyrics to be screamed in your church. I don’t get it. Were you just protecting yourself or was there some principle involved in your removing the statement and even admitting that it was sin? Are there no biblical principles that apply to a church’s seeming endorsement of these kinds of lyrics? Are biblical principles viewed as “legalistic hedges” whenever it suits one purpose? Aren’t you concerned about what the Bible says about having responsibility for bringing spiritual harm to the “little ones?”
By the way is there an minimum age requirement for this concert?
January 4th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Tim,
I have not insulted you, so why do you insult me? It is only my responsibility to preach the Word in season and out of season, it is up to the sovereignty of God who receives it!
Keith, you sound like a hyper Calvinist! Welcome! Oh, I am afraid you were being sarcastic. Still, even if none ever would come to Christ, it does not negate our responsibility to tell them since we don’t know who will come.
Tim, to answer your question, I was engaged in a conversation with a buddhist and a hindu just three weeks ago. I allowed them to talk to me about their faith, and they allowed me to talk to them about mine. It was quite educational and interesting! Then, later, I was speaking to the GLBTA at the college, and there was an agnostic, an athiest, two catholics, two lutherans, and a Jew. So, I have engaged in conversations with people from many backgrounds, and as they engage me, I engage them in conversation. I considered what they said, and they knew that I considered what they said, because they allowed me to respond and share my faith with them. I even caught some of it on film.
So, there it is. To summarize, Tim, I never insulted you, I suggested how you might use this event as a launching pad to talk about spiritual things. I never even questioned the event! I assumed the best, that you might use it as an opportunity to share your faith in a more tangible way. Since you have said you don’t intend to do that unless someone might think later how cool you were to let them use the facility and return and say thanks, or if you happen to later build a relationship with them….well….I am saddened by that choice.
January 4th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I agree: “…even if none ever would come to Christ, it does not negate our responsibility to tell them since we don’t know who will come.” However, if they are not of the “elect,” no amount of giving the gospel will change the end that God has already ordained.
No sarcasm intended…well, other than God having to look into the future to know what He has already ordained. My view was/is that God is sovereign over ALL things–including 100 people that might all die in the same moment. Our involvement (sharing of the Gospel) MIGHT be a vehicle…
January 5th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Keith,
You know… I think I really like you… in the manly guy way of course… LOL!
Be blessed,
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 9:24 am
So here is how I love my community:
By spreading the truth of the Gospel wherever I am whatever I am doing and wherever people gather.
Is my love not legitimate because it is only focussed on living out and proclamation of the Gospel?
January 5th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Tim,
Unless you were eavesdropping on the phone conversation, I don’t know how you would know anything about how it went. The conversation was not hostile in the least. I have three young adult sons this age and my heart was broken for this young man who was clearly confused about religion in general. He couldn’t get over the fact that I thought that Buddhists would go to hell. It was really an outrage to him that I could think that way. I kept pointing him to the fact that my opinion was not what mattered, but God’s opinion in his unchanging Word. I told him that Jesus was the one who said, “narrow is the way, and few there be who find it.” In other words the narrow way was not my invention. I also told him that it was God’s mercy and love for us that he created a plan for sinful mankind fo have eternal life. Tim, this kid was not the enemy, he’s been deceived and captured by the enemy as so many millions have. My beef with all this was that he’s playing in someone’s church. That’s all he knows. It’s bearing false witness for you to say that I didn’t share the gospel in love. At 9:30 I heard last night from another band member who is on tour with the band and he wants to talk with me today about this whole thing. If he is open, I hope to share the same thing with him. I’m frankly glad to have the opportunity to talk with these guys. All of them are seriously confused in their minds about truth, and they have no idea who Jesus is and what He did for lost mankind. These kids need the Lord, plain and simple, and if all they do is use a church building, what then?
January 5th, 2008 at 11:49 am
You called him the bride of satan in your earlier post.
In all likelihood your hostile rhetoric online will result in exactly that happening.
In love? How did you love him? Love requires service, all you did was call him and his band names online, try to bring pressure on me to call the thing off, and then talk to him on the phone. After everything you did, do you really think he heard anything you had to say? You presented yourself as an opponent to him and his band, as I pointed out throughout these comments you spoke words that you would recognize as the gospel, I doubt though that he heard what you communicated.
January 5th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Tim said: “…I doubt though that he heard what you communicated.”
For someone who trusts sovereignty so mightily, this is a weak statement. From what Ingrid just described of her interaction, I would say that is exactly what love is. She will not save him, but perhaps God will plant a seed in heart that causes him to consider and turn from his ways.
January 5th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Well I guess Ingrid better jump in the mosh pit to show how much she loves them.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.
No one ever befriended anyone into the Kingdom.
Do you honestly think that anyone will choose Jesus just because you let them perform in your building?
Jesus had many who thronged Him, but only the afflicted woman “touched” Him. Many followed Him around for a meal,
but only a few stayed after the Word was given.
John 6:
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the WORDS of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
(please I don’t want to hear about the political situation of 1st century Judea.)
January 5th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Now Chris P just be honest, you don’t want to hear anything but you.
January 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
WOW, Amy–seriously, have you skimmed this or actually read it? Tim addressed all of your word concerns previously. Don’t trip over the idea of reading what was actually written in an effort to go judge people. Actually reading what was written might take too much time, no?
January 5th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Chris P,
I know this will only fall on your deaf, bitter ears, but you need to understand something: this is an act of love on my church’s part. It is part of offering something to our community other than our mere existence. No matter how badly you want this to be some sort of evidence of how much you love God more than me, it isn’t.
January 5th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Ingrid,
There is so much to say about what you wrote above… again, you claim on thing but your words and actions do not match up…
You claim that the “narrow path” is not your invention which is truth, but in your actions you set your own definitions of that path in front of people and then become a door that slams shut in their face as they try to enter the Kingdom. Look at your own words and actions… do they really match? I see they do not… yet you judge others… your own Father’s servants, not yours, and condemn them. You claim grace, yet never give it to others.
Do you really see yourself as a more worthy sinner than the rest of us who cling to the blood and resurrection for our own salvation?
Again, it seems you have created a narrower path… no… a barricade before the Door who is Jesus to keep out who you deem unworthy… or less worthy than yourself.
OK, now go ahead and post a judgmental and condemning flamer post against me and close all comments so I cannot defend myself as you did last time.
Be blessed by the knowledge of the grace and power that comes from only our Lord Jesus.
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Ingrid,
Here is what I feel and agree with concerning almost all you write against people like myself and others.
Please forsake being god yourself and come to show the grace, mercy and love of our Lord instead of doing the ministry of death, judgment and condemnation… give life not death.
be blessed,
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Chris P,
You remind me of a show… the Gong Show LOL!
peace bro!
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Joe,
What do you mean by “your word concerns?” If you’re talking about profanity, I wasn’t specifically addressing that, or even thinking about it when I wrote what I did. I was talking about the themes of the songs, the pictures they create in one’s mind.
Have you heard the story of the foster parents who lost the right to be a foster parent because every day they encouraged their foster kids to chant about death, corpses, destruction, for hours, and did it in such a way that the kids thought it was great fun? No, you haven’t heard it because I just made it up. But it’s realistic to think that if such a thing happened that the foster parents could lose their right to be foster parents. Yet Christian parents and leaders don’t speak out about this kind of music that many kids are enmeshed in because they don’t want to be seen as legalistic, or because they place it in the “sacred” category of “it’s just music, ” or because they enjoy or have enjoyed it themselves. Our culture accepts these themes as fine entertainment. God doesn’t.
Kids suffer because Christian adults don’t care enough to understand the spiritual world enough to know that these kinds of lyrics can be used by Satan to create immense spiritual and even physical destruction.
January 5th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Amy…
Everything is spiritual. Eating a hamburger even. Don’t seperate ‘wordly’ from ’spiritual’. Everything you do anywhere you do it, is spiritual, because we’re spiritual beings in fleshy bodies, inexorably tied toether.
Hey guys,
What about this band? Ken Silva is throwing a judging fit over them:
Joe C
January 5th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Iggy likes ME! He REALLY like me!!! (Sorry, I had to get this one in here; I’ve been out most of the day)
January 5th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Joe C, I absolutely can not stand that kind of music, but those are fantastic lyrics.
January 5th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
My wife has a post up about this whole thing over at her blog. She has a pile of Scripture verses to make her case. Go here and have fun.
January 5th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Deborah,
I completely agree. I find it completely A-musical, and absolutely not understandable. I don’t consider it music, persay.
With that said, the lyrics are fantastic. It’s definintely something worth saying for them obviously. And you can tell they really mean what they’re saying. I don’t doubt their Christian faith or devotion to Christ.
A while back we were debating Christian music and what makes it Christian, or “unworthy” of the name. Most people came down to the “message” of the Lyrics determining the Christian-ness of it (lol). With that in mind, what do people think of this band’s music? Is it satanic, or is it Christian, based on the lyrics? What do you define as “Christian”, and if this music is edifying to other Chrisians, and is a genuine way of worshipping God, can we tell these men they are wrong?
Realize I don’t think the Bible has a dogmatic response to this, so we’re in personal conviction zone now.
Joe
January 5th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
The funny thing is most groups in that genre preach the wrath of God and are heavy into repentance… If anyone should back them is Ken and Ingrid! LOL!
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
I think all musical styles has some value. I enjoy everything. Literally, everything can be found in my iTunes.
January 5th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Even Death Metal, Joe? I just can’t like music I can’t hear words in, notes in, or even distinguish between notes.
But this is coming from a Pianist…and for me it’s all about tone and pitch…so you can figure why I can’t handle that kind of music.
I also can’t stand Indian music. Like, from India. It has notes and everything…but it’s just all the wrong ones, LOL.
Iggy, I think you’re right about that one man haha.
Joe
January 5th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Amy,
1. What lyrics are you talking about?
Lyrics like this?
Nailed dead and risen, a perfect life divine sacrifice. A despised savior-despise only me. Silenced by the mislead who mock the God they never met. The evil of men’s minds knows no limits, who chooses hell over forgiveness. You try and try to obliterate my fathers name, it sickens me! I stay silenced no more. A despised savior-despise only me. You try and try to obliterate my fathers name, it sickens me! I stay silences no more. Send me to the depths of hell, and ill bring back risen souls. Despise our savior-just remember, nailed, dead, and risen.
or Lyrics like these?
Loving God how could you take the only thing I felt love from? Where was your love? Where was your comfort that I spoke of? In this world ran by the enemy, which lead me the think you to be the first to damn my lack of faith and trust left me in a hole of unbelief. Forgive me. She will remain in our hearts forever. On this earth when flesh dies our souls will reunite. She spoke to me of who you are and how your love could never separate us, and how you did things only for good and casted out all that is bad. Forgive me mother for my doubt; my holy father will cast him out. Again! Come back Jesus, cast out Satan, Again! A-men. Thank you for this loss, thank you for your blood, thank you for the 16 years of life with her and for the everlasting joy ill have when you come back and save us from this hell. Come back father God of life; enrich us with your wealth.
Are these the lyrics of destruction you are talking about?
Also, Satan creates nothing… he is the destroyer. To state Satan “creates” makes him equal with God as only God is the Creator of all things. Satan is only a creation gone bad… and in turns perverts all things to bad.
So, you are condemning a band by their sound and saying that their lyrics are evil… yet I showed you two songs… so show me the evil in them? One even sounds like a psalm to me!
And you have giving an attribute of God alone to Satan…
I agree, if people like you knew more about the bible and other things, kids would not suffer that kind of ignorance.
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
hello Wayne’s world where even the hamburgers are spiritual,
I for one do see what the big problem is, the point is moot. Allow me to illustrate that conclusion by the use of a hypothetical situation. Let’s say, hypothetically speaking of course, that an anonymous ‘emerging church’ allows an anonymous ‘death-metal’ band to use their facilities/church building and then in fact does preach the new emergent inclusive tolerant gospel of love to them, who upon hearing it decide that, yes, they would like to to seek common ground and to enter into dialogue. Okay fine. What’s the difference. We who would contend that the emerging church preaches another gospel, with another Jesus, and another spirit, would not see any good or loss from the venture either way.
Why can’t there be emerging-death-metal? It’s all of “another spirit’ anyway…..as those of us who oppose the ‘emerging/community’ new gospel would argue.
Once again, this is hypothetical, I do not know if the church in question is emergent-oriented-supportive-friendly,etc, although I would presume that is the case.
so are they?
January 5th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Keith,
An yes… I really do like you… but I don’t always agree with you… but that makes it all the more fun!
LOL!
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
While music may not be the determining factor about whether something is “Godly” or not, it does reflect culture and the attitude of the culture, the same as any art. Back during the renessance (sp?) most artists (of any form, music included) believed that God is the creator of the world and their art usually reflected that magnificently. Since then, especially in the 20th century there has been a shift away from God and with that, a shift away from credible artwork (displays of blank canvases, grafiti, and odd sculptures seem to considered art . . .) Likewise there has been a shift toward more dissonant (sp?) music; death metal being one of the more extreme “musical” genres.
While the lyrics of a song definately matter, I really think the music of a song reflects the attitude as well. Don’t get me wrong, I love my rock music, but I really have a hard time worshiping to it. That’s why I don’t like Contemporary Christian Music all that much, and why I really do enjoy singing hymns in church.
Has anyone ever read How Now Shall We Live? by Chuck Colson? He talks about a lot of this stuff in there.
January 5th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Joe, I like Skillet. I don’t know what kind of music that is classified as. If you really want to know actual bands I listen to email and I’ll send you a list.
January 5th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
merry,
I understand what you’re getting at, but beauty is really in the eye of the beholder sometimes. I’m generally not a fan of metal, but I know some people who really connect with it. Also, some metal is surprisingly technical and is actually influenced quite heavily by classical music, believe it or not (although I wouldn’t include most death metal in that category).
Music has always had changing standards. In Bach’s day, composers purposely avoided the flatted fifth because it was called the “Devil’s note”. Now, it a staple in Western music. Does that mean all that music is demonic? Obviously not. It’s just that what is beautiful is always changing. Personally I think God can work redemptively in ways that seem even shocking to us. We don’t have to like everything, but we don’t necessarily need to condemn everything that we don’t like.
January 5th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Phil, I agree with you - it’s an individual thing.
I may take a lot of grief for this but the song “Amazing Grace” completely ruins any worship experience for me. People really try to make me guilty for that, they think that because it is considered such a “holy” song that it is universally loved and will always contribute to a worshipful spirit.
I almost, ALMOST would rather listen to Impending Doom, it’s a close call.
January 5th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Phil, I agree with your comment. Music is forever changing, and God can use anything He wants to for His glory.
I was just saying music conveys attitudes, not just the lyrics. When people scream it’s usually out of anger or maybe fear. Putting the words, “I love you Jesus!” to a death metal/screamo song just seems like sort of an oxymoron. Maybe it’s just me.
January 5th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I’m glad we all can see that this is a matter of personal conviction or even personal taste. What these guys are doing is amazing for the Genre of Death Metal. It’s bringing a light in to a VERY dark genre of music. Fighting fire with fire, so to speak.
Christians have done the same thing in normal rock music, soft rock, jazz, blues, new age, etc etc. It’s a good thing, but it won’t always have appeal for everyone. God works in amazing ways, through amazing mediums. Jesus is always at work through His people.
As fo your Joe Martino, I know who Skillet is, and I think what they’re doing is great too. Not my favorite style of music though, for sure. That’s a preference though, my preference, it really is. Nothing bad on you Joe.
Joe
January 5th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
I find it interesting that “obsecity-laced” emails from followers of the band somehow proves Ingrid’s point and further discredits the band.
By that logic, given all the negative stuff that Slice reports on done by those who claim to follow Jesus, He must be a real jerk.
January 5th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Joe C,
I haven’t told you all my music, I’m sure I have something that will offend somebody.
January 5th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
I have Mike Oldfield’s Tubular Bells (theme from the movie The Exorcist) on my MP3 player. Probably not something I should “brag” about.
January 5th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Just watched the Youtube video of Silence The Oppressors by Impending Doom.
Ah…
Mmm…
Er…
Well at least their band name is prophetic!
January 5th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
I question the validity of this statement. It is not always the case. Therefore, it is not “true” in the sense that it is always true. Sometimes it is false, in other words. God opens ears and people hear the gospel whether the person sharing it has “earned” anything.
I don’t think I really want to say to myself “I haven’t earned the right to tell them the Gosple yet.” That is the logical way of thinking if the concept of earning rights to share the gospel is completely followed out. It also allows that I have more power than I really do have, that, by my human workings and relating abilities, I might make the gospel more palatable.
It is important to live out the Gospel, yes, but sharing it is not based on an earned-rights system. It is our command to share the Gospel, not our command to respect rights. The concept of rights is more a human concept than a God concept, anyway. What rights do we really have? I blogged on this concept in the past, and so I won’t go into that now.
Secondly, I agree that the “church” is not the building. I am reading the book highlighted on Brant Hansen’s blog (Pagan Christianity, by Frank Viola) and am finding it to have some wonderful things to say on this matter — and excellent book, which I recommend reading. HOWEVER, the world, and the church itself are not at a place yet (if ever) where they currently make that distinction, and I still maintain that, even though the church is not the building, it is seen that way in our culture. For people that are as attuned to working within the culture and identifying ways to use it for the Gospel, it amazes me that this isn’t seen as relevant: the culture doesn’t make the distinction between the body and the building. It really doesn’t.
You agree with me, even though you may not think so. I can say that, because the idea that “if the concert is held in the church, maybe that will make them more interested in the gospel” is relying upon the idea that the building has more meaning than merely a post-and-lintel structure. That by hosting an event there, it becomes somehow conducive to making the church more approachable. A concert in a Civic Auditorium does not make people more interested in the Civic Auditorium. If the church truly were just a building, why would this not also apply?
So, it can’t be both. And if you allow that by hosting a concert in a church building has some significance in building the church, then the building does, indeed, carry meaning.
Again, I agree the building IS NOT the church. But the world, this culture of ours — it does not see that. Tradition still tells the majority of the church and those outside of the church — especially those outside of the church — that the building is significant. By saying “we can do anything we want to in the building because it isn’t the real church” is fine and good in theory, but again: how does the world see this? Is it helping or hurting? Can I both count on the meaning of a building as part of my reasoning for hosting an event while simultaneously say it has no meaning?
January 5th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Brandt,
I find it interesting that she is putting down non Christians for using obscene laced language. Meanwhile she hides behind “nice” language and calls them satanic… and other really nice things! I am almost surprised one of htem has nto called them “pre-emergents”! LOL!
LOL! yep the kindness of God leads them to repentance, while the “subversive hate language” of ODM’s wreaks of unkindness and contempt for His Kindness.
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
I agree, Merry. This was also an excellent book. I would put it on a recommended reading list any day.
January 5th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Julie, I strongly disagree with you. I’m not saying that the act of allowing a concert in a the church will do anything. I’m saying that these kids know they need a building and we are doing a service to them by renting the building to them. I don’t care if we rent them the shed, we’re telling them “hey we have this building that isn’t being used on the night you need it so come on and use it.” I also reject your idea that our culture sees a building as a church. I’ll agree that maybe your culture does but in my experience the majority of people do not. Granted that has been an East Coast experience and a little eastern mid-west thing so it may not be the same as yours. Your argument seems flawed to me because it is based on the assumption that these kids are putting an emphasis on this building as a “church” building as opposed to it just being a building. To these kids, it’s just a place where they can hang out and feel for one night like they are a band that made it.
January 5th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Geo. Brown,
Interestingly the lyrics is about those Christians who oppress other Christians and about hold the line for Christ in the very face of Hell itself…
It seems that they are truly holding the light in the darkness while some hold the candle to their own brothers and sisters in Christ… these guys seem to be living their convictions as believers right in the face of those who hold to demons… in fact their reputation seems to be just that… and in that they are gaining respect even from that demonic crowd and those “demon” inspired are listening and hear truth of the One Kingdom.
Here is what their write up is:
In that of course now I understand why Ken and Ingrid would be against all that… they seem to hate those who desire for the Kingdom of God to advance against the kingdom of darkness… in fact they are very much into the wrath of God if one does not turn… so again, of all people, Ken and Ingrid should be praising them and singing their songs in their worship services! LOL!
iggy
January 5th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Julie,
I see you point, and I actually think it’s quite salient. The thing I think the church needs to start asking itself is why does the “world” still associate the word church with a building. What are we doing to give that impression?
Are we at a time and place where we need to seriously question these things. I have to admit that this whole issue sort of touches a nerve with me right now because of some other stuff I’ve been dealing with lately. It just seems to me that the church has been defining itself as an institution for too long, and I think in many ways those chickens are coming home to roost now.
Are we going to continue to be worried about the reputation of the institution, or are we ready to step out of the box we’ve put ourselves in?
January 5th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
tom,
i laughed at you suggesting or implying that our church is emergent or emergent-friendly. it is the opposite direction of emergent, but I guess since people don’t like that we are letting bands use the building… it’s emergent.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:09 am
would you rent your church out to a group of witches who wished to use it for a satanic service?
January 6th, 2008 at 12:58 am
This has nothing to do with Mid-West/Coast culture, my particular “culture.” That was likely true in the Red Hot Bash discussion, but not here. I don’t think, if you ask the man on the street, to define church, that they are going to say “body of believers.” They are going to reference it in terms of a place where religious people go, i.e. it is a place. Again, I agree this isn’t accurate. The body is the church, not the place they happen to be.
The phrase “in my experience” is an interesting one. I have used it, and its subjectivity was pointed out to me. The problem with “in my experience” is that, perhaps, we are only experiencing/exposing ourselves to a certain vein of existence, whether on purpose or subconciously. In your experience, you say, the majority of people do not associate the word “church” with a building? Really. The majority of people you’ve come across in all your experience understand that the body is the church and not the building? I would say your experience has been limited to either people of similarity or apathy. You might say that back to me; however, I am not, in this case, really basing it on my experience but on the simple fact that, for example Viola had to write his book because people do not see the body/building issue. I am willing to go out on a limb and say that people will still use the phrase “go to church” (either negatively or positively) which means they still see it as a place. “I don’t like going to church.” “I don’t go to church.” “I go to church.”
You know what? Great. Tim opened up his buidling to some kids and a band. Fine.
But the previous post on the matter, in which someone asked if an abortion clinic could be there was answered with a vehment “straw man!” and “no!” And now, we are asked about witches. To all of that, I say: if the building is neutral, and happens to be free and open on the night of need, what’s the problem?
“I think abortion is wrong.”
“I do not want to promote witchcraft.”
Great.
But…there again is the idea that, in some cases, the building is not neutral and reflects upon the body that meets in it. Granted, those two are rather extreme examples and end up being flashpoints or all-or-nothing examples, but they flesh out the general issue: if we draw the line at some things, while not at others, we are still giving importance to the place in which these events are held. Even if we claim that we do not hold some events as a reflection of the body and nothing to do with the building itself, it still remains that we are assuming that what happens with the building owned and used by the body is a reflection upon the body.
Frankly, this is one of the few times I feel as if my argument is the least flawed as I’ve ever written it here on CRN.info. I’m completely dispassionate and coming at this fully detached.
So the kids do not see the building as more than just a building. The title of this post is “loving our community.” Is the community just these kids? What about those old fuddy duddies whoe are not Christians who are just not as hip and attuned to the apathetic view of all things in life as these youth are? You can’t use the weaker brother argument for these non-Christians. You might cop out and say “they aren’t the focus God has given our ministry.” That’s likely another discussion. I’m going to have to assume that by “community”, the word is referencing a specific generation or age group, or a group of like-minded people who see the situation “correctly.”
I’m not sure if that’s a good definition of community. What part of “go into all the world” fits that? Do we have the option of waiting for our right to witness as well as picking and choosing our particular neighborhood of the world?
Again, it is likely discussion for another time.
Do you really believe that these kids see the building as neutral? If so, is it because they have a complete sense of the true nature of the Christian church, or because they are apathetic about Christianity in general? It is easy to see a building as meaning nothing if the religion that meets there is viewed as neutered and nothing as well. In that case, I’d be interested to meet this majority of people who see the building as neutral, and ask why. I’d like to know what has made them see the truth about the body –seriously, what opened the eyes of so many! — or if, in fact, t case is more that of the complete lie that nothing matters, including the building. This could, in fact, raise an interesting post: why do people latch themselves onto the building, and why do others see no meaning in anything? Do these same youth see the body of believers, the church, with the same neutral view? Will hosting their concert change this? Or will it say “Hey, this body let us meet in their building. I’m going to join the body.” I know that is the hope, and I hope with you.
Though I find your “I reject your ideas” a bit strongly put, you are welcome to reject my ideas, as well as my questions. I hope, though, after reading these posts and comments, that you would actually do well to consider my thoughts instead of a wholesale rejection.
These are excellent points, and goals. I wish the institution/building aspect could be removed and this discussion a moot point. However, we aren’t there. And I don’t know that hosting a music group that some are going to really have a problem with is the best way to make this distinction disapear.
The obvious way to make it disappear?
Sell the buildings. Break the church into house churches. Remove any and all things of geographic relevance that says “God is mostly here.” Get rid of the church hierarchy, the paid positions…that would be the most drastic way. You can’t remove relevance of place as long as you still have a geographic place, as well as a place of position (i.e. pastors, or anyone “raised up” and more important than the people in the pews, etc.).
Is this rhetorical, or framed in light of the specific issue of Tim’s church and the concert?
If it is rhetorical, it is a fine question. It really is. I am dying to leap out of the box, but I don’t want to leap into another. If it is dealing specifically, I wonder if stepping out of the box, in light of the band and the surrounding issues, is actually a congruent idea or not. The fact that the building is getting used in a non-traditional way does not change the fact that it is still used as a meeting place for the church. The only way to slough off the place-as-church connection is to remove the place. It isn’t enough to use it differently during the off-hours, for then it becomes the usual place, plus concert hall, or plus theater, or plus daycare. Is a religious-based community center really stepping out of a box? Or just into a bigger one? It is still a place of association, after all.
Feel free to wholly reject my ideas, though I’d wish you’d consider them, and that they are kindly meant.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Also, one final note: please do not make a habit, now, of saying “well, in Julie’s Mid-West culture, it doesn’t apply.”
That’s a complete brush-off and disengagement of the highest and distateful order. I will allow it may apply in some points, particularly when I pointed them out earlier, but the general sense I get when I see it is that I, my beliefs, etc. are out of touch and just not free enough. Just as it would do me well to not assign derision to everything an ODM writer might say (because they do hit some key points), it would be foolish to now start seeing me in light of some sort of backward non-viable religious culture. It would do us all well to look at the culture we think least applies, and reevaluate just why that is, and if it is even true.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Julie,
Just sayin’.. Owosso is like the least ‘hip’ place on the planet.. I would say about 80% of our ministry is to those 60 years and older. We rent our building to say to people in the community, we are here, we are not just the “old people church.” (which is where people in the community ask me if I go.)
January 6th, 2008 at 3:33 am
Inq,
If the Church of Jesus is a building, then selling it for use to witches and witchcraft would be wrong. But if it’s just brick and mortar….
Opportunity to share our Faith then abounds.
The Church is where the believer is.
Julie, you’ve added some great balance to this discussion, thank you for your insight, it’s been helpful.
Joe
January 6th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Mental note to self: “Don’t disagree with Julie” Dang Julie, I wasn’t rejecting all of your arguments, just that one. I certainly want’ rejecting your questions. I want to answer this one question then I gotta go to church:
I do really believe they see a building as neutral and I’m not dumb of course it’s not because they understand what church really is. They don’t care. That was the point I was trying to make. They don’t care what a church is. To them it’s probably high on the list of most irrelevant things to their life.
As for your whole little, “Don’t say it’s Julies Culture thing.” RELAX I’ve seen people in the Mid-West and Rural NY (which thinks it’s the Mid-West) get upset over people yelling at a basketball referee. What will non-Christians think was/is their argument. You can’t make noise during a basketball game etc. I’ve never been to ND and if God is gracious to me, I never will be. I was just saying that maybe in your culture there would be more non-church people who cared. I don’t know b/c I’m not in it. At best, in my opinion which I hope I can still hold to even if it disagrees with you, I think the argument you are making is a cultural one.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:01 am
I just don’t get why the fundamentalists/ODMs are so concerned about how the world views the church. To say that sounds semi pelegian.
I led a coffee house at my church several months ago. Anyone, Christian or otherwise, was allowed to perform. The only request was that the lyrics be clean.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:01 am