why critique the content when you can critique the stage?
In this article, linked to at both CRN and Slice, Truth Matters attempts to show how externals are much more important than the message you preach. Lititz Grace Church is doing a series called “McWorship”. It appears to be addressing the modern trend of feel-good, quick and simple worship that takes place in many churches today. They are using the metaphor of fast-food culture to show how many today treat church like a trip to McDonald’s… you’re way, right away. Sounds pretty ODM friendly right?
Guess again. They attacked this church for using a McDonalds set design in their auditorium. Apparently God has a list of approved decor for stage. I also find it funny that this ODM had little to say about the content of the sermons. This church used drama and stage design — they obviously care very little for the Word of God, right? I mean, decorating a church like a fast-food restaurant obviously means that they will be speaking more about a Big Mac than the scriptures, true?
Once again… methods matter much more than the message to these ODMs. Kudos Ingrid, on raising a son that not only has an advanced reading level, but seems to be becoming equally judgemental
update: thought I would add some comments from the commenters
- If John MacArthur came to church, the pews would be over filled with people wanting to hear the unaduterated Word of Jesus Christ…So, the seeker church chooses the Sandwich over the preacher because they have the false theology that the church is primarily for evangelizing.
- I’m not speaking of the true church, but the visible, modern day church that has no clue about church history and true worship of the early church, the puritans, and the reformers. Next, we’ll have choirs wearing those red pig tails(Wendy’s). God help us. Lord come quickly.
- Go to these “churches” for babies milk and 99% false conversions….You need radical change in America. Glad I’m not in the States.
- Editor , Ingrid , Ken Silva , Legalism , Linked Articles , SoL/CRN Responses , SoL/CRN Writers , Worship
January 1st, 2008 at 8:43 pm
It just further proves that they really just want it to look like them. It’s about the method as much as it is about the message for these “journalist”
January 1st, 2008 at 8:51 pm
The site that originally pointed this out, bloodtippedears, seems to make the Regulative Principle of Worship as important as the Bible.
I had never even heard of the Regulative Principle of Worship until I started learning about these ODMs. Aren’t the RPWs the same guys that tried to shut down Issac Watts?
January 1st, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Yeah absolutely terrible…He’s preaching straight out of Malachi!
I went to his (the pastor of Grace Church) blog and it appears he doesn’t allow comments. Good move!
January 1st, 2008 at 9:54 pm
I just read the post at Slice. You know, I think there is nothing left to the imagination there. I really used to find Slice very appealing and refreshing. But after the whole ‘enemy of Christ’ thing I am rethinking everything. There is simply a lot of anger coming from that unordained, non-evangelical, non-elder, non-pastor, non-prophet individual. I think she might need a hug from someone who has genuinely experienced the grace of God. I’m serious; the author seems very, very angry and unhappy. What is the author trying to protect? (You don’t have to answer.) Seriously, does the author of Slice really believe themselves to be more influential in the Church than Jesus? Doesn’t the Church still belong to Jesus?
That ‘enemy of Christ’ thing changed everything for me. At the rate Slice is going, there will be no one on the planet left who is qualified to preach the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
jerry
January 1st, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I’m glad he/she isn’t in the States, either.
More milk for me.
January 1st, 2008 at 10:51 pm
The funny thing is that these people only seem to follow the “Regulative Principle” when it meets their purposes. Where is there mention of choirs in Scripture?
January 1st, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Why would we worship the early church. That’s scary
January 1st, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Oh yeah, and I love the whole “J & J Ministry” thing. IT’S A BLOG!!! NOT A FREAKING MINISTRY!!!
January 1st, 2008 at 11:02 pm
My favorite is the poll on the side of the page that says:
Damnation by popular vote! Woohoo!
January 1st, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Right, isn’t Jesus Christ the only Judge of who is and is not a ‘truly regenerate Christian’?
January 1st, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Friends,
I realize I am a newby when it comes to all things Slice and Aprising and CRN.info and all that. I made a post yesterday that generated quite a bit of response at my blog–my second best day ever as far as page views are concerned–not necessarily the response I had hoped for (forgiveness and reconcilation), but responses nonetheless.
Anyhow, I was notified on my blackberry tonight that someone had posted a reply to my New Year’s Eve post, ‘Ask yourself (as I have asked myself)’. It was Mr Silva. But, and here’s the irony, he wasn’t replying concerning my New Year’s Eve post, he was replying to the comments I made above concerning what I believe to be a real need in the life of the author of Slice; that is, for some genuine grace.
Well, since his comments really are related to this thread, I thought it might be appropriate to reproduce them here. Here’s what he wrote to me:
_____________________________
jerry,
“There is simply a lot of anger coming from that unordained, non-evangelical, non-elder, non-pastor, non-prophet individual. I think she might need a hug from someone who has genuinely experienced the grace of God. I’m serious; the author seems very, very angry and unhappy…â€
“the author of slice… ‘All I did with my life was point out everyone else’s sin and never offer them any grace.’â€
When you take your shots at “the author of slice†you ought to at least man up and do Ingrid the courtesy of using her name.
__________________________
Now, to be sure, and for the record, I was being sincere. I really think that the author of Slice needs to experience the freeing grace of Jesus Christ in her life. Now I am beginning to think that Mr. Silva also needs to experience it. I’m sorry to take up so much space, but I thought you might like to read what Mr Silva had to say about comments made here.
And to think I had turned my computer off for the night. Man, I love my Blackberry!
jerry
ps–I did reply to Mr Silva if you are interested.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:10 am
Man, that website just gets more and more… shrill.
It sounds just like… clanging cymbals.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 am
I think you all are missing the point.
Reverence for God is what this focusses on. Many in the church today have lost an awe of God in their church services and their daily worship. I understand the metaphor of a fast food Gospel, I really do. Unfortunately, this church seems to be promoting the same gospel while preaching against it? (just observe the lack of reverence and awe in the drama portrayed below the post)
I can, and I have worshipped and studied my Bible in McDonalds (I spend Sunday Mornings in my local McDonalds or Starbucks praying and reviewing my message one last time) so I know that I can be reverent even with all that stuff around. That is not the point. The point is that we have dumbed down the Gospel so much and we have focussed on consumerism and being sensitive to human wants and demands rather than what God demands. The result is simple: hearts that are far from God, an Mtv approach to preaching (quick, fast moving, keep it moving, visual) and a focus on humans as the seekers and the subject of who we want to please on Sunday Mornings.
And by the way, I am a pastor, ordained, (as if that gives me any more right to be a minister of reconciliation or have a ministry than any Christian…)
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:04 am
pastorboy,
I actually think that some churches focus too much on the “awe” factor of God, at least in one sense. I think some churches would still be comfortable serving God as He was in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, God was basically unapproachable by the vast majority of people. The Israelites feared God so much that they were afraid to go near Mount Sinai.
In the New Testament, how does God first show up? He shows up as a vulnerable baby in a manger. When Jesus grows up, He is so approachable that little children feel safe coming up to Him. Jesus is the perfect image of God. He’s how God wants us to see Him. What God “demands” is approaching Him through Jesus. That can be done in a number of different ways.
There is still an “awe” factor involved in worship, but it’s more of the awe of what God has done. It’s the wonder of realizing that the God of the universe has come to meet with us, that He went so such great lengths for us, and that He loves us.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:13 am
pastorboy-
I appreciated your tone with Tim Reed. It was refreshing.
I watched the video, looking for lack of reverence and I think that is actually the point of it. The characters on stage are all immature Christians, bickering over their spiritual gifts. They are acting like children. While it wasn’t the greatest skit I’ve ever seen, I can clearly see in my own life when I’ve acted like those guys, being jealous of others spiritual gifts.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:13 am
By whose standards was there a lack and reverence of awe?
This is the essence of the post.
A 6 minute video posted on Youtube of a church drama by some heresy hunter does nothing to prove to me the heresy of said Pastor. Apparently at the end of the video when he says “Open your bibles with me and read what Paul says about Spiritual Gifts” was not good enough to satiate the appetite of the watchdoggies. Maybe he should of said “Spiritiual gifts aren’t important. Especially those concerning Mercy, Ministry, and Exhortation.”
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 am
Just wanted to answer the question:
Because the former requires research.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:12 am
Jerry,
Ken did the same thing to me, leaving a comment on my post about my mission trip to Russia, but related to something I commented on crn.info. Is he trying to address us in private or afraid to “man-up” and address it on the thread actually related to the issue.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:14 am
He said, he’d never come back here many times. I try to help Ken keep his word. Still, he could email you, I suppose. But what do I know? According to Ken, I’m apostate and can’t read.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:18 am
Do the ODM’s realize there are Christians meeting in parts of the world who worship in the frozen woods in secret due to persecution? The ODM’s forget that worship comes from our internal affections for God and not their favorite old hymm, or pews, or air conditioning. “Man-made” items for worship such as organs are not more biblical than an electric guitar.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Well in Kens defense at least he does come to our blogs and leaves rebuttals.
It is probably much easier than him attempting to stick his head out here and then have 15 people jump on him.
Now if we could just get him to have dialogue!
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 am
Pastor Boy,
I would be ok with the article in question if the author had listened to the sermon podcasts and actually heard the pastor “dumbed down” the gospel. Unfortunately they focus much to much on ascetics, and very little on content.
I know first hand that drama, film, dance, etc. can be used to further drive home the scriptures. However, because we have grown up in a church culture where the only thing acceptable in church is a man giving his sermon, we have a hard time seeing the value of art within a service.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I read your mission statement and if you really believe what you state than why would you defend LGC?
I left this church because their Pastor became infactuated with Hybills theology of bringing into the church a lust for worldly satisfaction and pleasure. The church has become man-centered instead of God-centered, and the focus is on felt needs instead of God’s glory.
Now I ask you: How can you defend this with scripture? Salvation is all about the power of God and when you use human manipulation you lose the very thing most needed. This is why Matthew chpt. 7 warns all who emphatically claim Him as Lord……now think about this…..of all the 69% of american professing christians…….only a “FEW” are really saved! And you can blame alot of this on these silly pastors who have made “cultural sensitivity” an important tool for evangelism and then have these people repeat a superstitious prayer and pronounce them saved?
You can slam these concerned people all you want but I would not want to be in some of these preacher’s shoes. I would like to show them Whom they should fear! And from what I read on Truth Matters that is their desire also!
January 2nd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
ike,
can you show me in scripture where the decor on the stage is more important that the word preached. Apparently to these ODMs it is.
January 2nd, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Well there you have it! Let’s shut her down…Nothing more we can do!
January 2nd, 2008 at 8:25 pm
You know, I did a search on the Willowcreek site and I couldn’t find anywhere where they say that man’s needs must be met rather than God’s glory…
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 pm
hahahahaha…. very funny.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Chris, you kill me when you’re on vacation. Truly
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:25 pm
I’m not a watchdog for anybody and I don’t have a blog. My point is when we gather together with other believer’s we do so to worship a Holy God.
Nathan, if the President invited you to the Whitehouse for dinner it would be interesting to see what you wore and how you talked and acted around President Bush? Is our God smaller than the president?
Although the lostness of men should drive us to the mission field, it should NOT be our primary motivation any more than loving our neighbor should be a higher commandment than that of loving God. We must realize that those who truly seek the glory of God will also seek the welfare of the fallen men for whom God gave His Son. It is impossible to obey the first great command while being disobedient to the second.
The same is true when we gather as believer’s in church. It’s all about having a passion for God’s glory.
It takes more “power” of God to raise a dead man to life than all the power of God in the six days of creation. LGC wants to stair-step these dead men to life? It is no more “easy” for a dead man to take one step than it is for him to take a thousand steps? If he is dead….he is dead! You either believe that or you don’t. Have we forgotten that the Bible itself testifies that “no man” can understand the Gospel apart from the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit. I’m saying that all churches would be better off if “we” were more concerned with expository preaching and the Spirit’s empowering, and less preoccupied with repackaging the Gospel to make it less offensive or “easier” to understand. And also, that the Kingdom would be better served if “we” were less concerned with cultural sensitivity and more concerned with the sensitivity to the Scriptures.
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:34 am
Joe,
I’ll be out on vacation (going to the Big Apple through Sunday night) the next several days. Sorry I won’t be here to ‘kill you’
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 am
Ike,
about the president metaphor… unfortunately many people have added cultural stipulations to worship. As an example, in America when meet with an important figure (such as the president) we dress up and use elevated language. It is wrong to carry that over to God. Three piece suits and old english do not honor him any more than street clothes and modern vernacular.
Ike,
how do you know that LGC is side-stepping people into life? We never heard the sermons. The issue here is jumping to conclusions. I.E. If someone decorates their stage in a certain manner, they must not care about the gospel - they are using parlor tricks to get people into heaven. Now, if we listened to his sermons, and that was the case, this whole thing would be unnecessary.
Lastly, I don’t think we can separate glorifying God with other commandments. Some think that it is either or… either glorify or evangelize. However, the latter is proof and fulfilment of the former. Also, in a true Christian Community, the gathering together of believers happens more often than two hours on Sunday. If that happens, then then emphasis on what happens on Sunday is not as critical.
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
My favorite is the poll on the side of the page that says:
After Watching The Video Posted, Is Joel Osteen A Truly Regenerate Christian?
Damnation by popular vote! Woohoo!
Comment from Jerry Hillyer
Time: January 1, 2008, 11:23 pm
Right, isn’t Jesus Christ the only Judge of who is and is not a ‘truly regenerate Christian’?
You could have voted that we should not judge? Also, the Bible says that “we” shall know them by their fruit.
I’m not going to say Osteen isn’t saved, but how can an evengelical preacher state that the “mormon” jesus is the Bible Jesus??? You got to be kidding me???