I’m going to use the consumption of alcohol as an example here. If you are of the mind that every Scriptural reference to “wine” is really unfermented grape juice, then mentally substitute another example. If you can’t think of any, then I’m quite worried for you.
Need a few extra boundaries in your life? Totally understandable. With the exception of a sip of champagne at my aunt’s wedding, I haven’t ever knowingly consumed alcohol. I grew up in “grape juice” circles, and don’t want to unnecessarily offend my friends that are still in those circles, but that’s not the primary reason. To be honest, the main reason that I don’t drink is that I don’t know if I can handle it. Who knows? I may not have an addictive personality, but I’d hate to find out the hard way that I do.
I find nowhere in Scripture that forbids all consumption of alcohol. But for me, personally (and by “personally”, I mean “personally”), that’s the standard.
A few interesting Scriptures (emphasis mine):
Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”Genesis 3:2-3
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”Genesis 3:11
And [God] said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
At the risk of getting a Sesame Street tune stuck in your head, one of these things is not like the others. In the first reference, God gives a command, and in the last, He references that command. But in the middle passage — let’s be honest here — Eve lies about God.
Which leads me to a sidebar: If I interpret this passage correctly, the first human sin was not the consumption of the forbidden fruit or even the pride or lust that led to that consumption. Rather, it would seem that the first human sin was Eve’s lie about God. If someone has Scriptural reference to refute that, I’ll be glad to back off it.
Note that Eve did not say, “God said not to eat it, and I’m not even gonna touch it, because I know that I can’t eat what I don’t touch.” No, she ascribed to God something that He never said. I have to wonder if the serpent’s deception didn’t get easier with that statement, because she was already half-way “there”.
And so, here we see that legalism is older than dirt. It wasn’t invented in the 1950s by some preacher to keep his people from going to see Doris Day movies.
Now, granted, legalism often involves more than ascribing to God what He never said. It also involves imposing your personal extra-Biblical standards on others. But in some sense, is this not really the same thing? Perhaps I am not so bold as to quote from the book of Hezekiah. But if I put my personal standards on your life, am I not either claiming divine revelation and an open Canon, or at least claiming that God has told me what He wants for your life?
Seems that either way, you’re lying about God — something we might wanna do less of.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
60 Comments(+Add)
I will never understand this issue. It is not a sin, but it is such a big issue in th church why is it so difficult to humbly and without fanfare abstain? What do we sacrifice for Christ’s sake?
I was a huge drunk before Christ but I have never needed it. If they serve wine on the moon I will take Powerade instead. I know, legalist.
Brendt – this is one of the furthest stretches I’ve ever read… You make the assumption that the conversation recorded in Genesis is the ONLY conversation between Eve and the serpent. For all we know, this conversation (the devil’s attempt to tempt her) probably took place over time. Ezekiel sheds a little more light on the nature of the devil in the garden in Ezek 28:11-19.
What this means is that perhaps not every word spoken between Eve/Adam and the Lord was fully recorded.
The point is, even if this is not the case, Eve shows more reason than most Christians today in that perhaps she understood the power of lust. Look what happened to Lot: pitched his tent TOWARD Sodom… before you know it, he’s the mayor of Sodom and calls the sodomites brothers!
To make this a play on legalism is utterly ridiculous. With alcohol vaulted to its lofty pinnacle (I’m sitting in an office right now overhearing everyone talking about drinking tonight – New Year’s Eve)? Christian see, Christian do… sad state (PS. not necessarily against modest alcohol consumption myself, but why promote or defend it?)
Rick, I certainly hope you didn’t come away from my post thinking that I would consider you a legalist. Your reasoning is probably one of my secondary reasons for me, too.
Excellent post, Brendt!
Looking at the bigger picture (past alcohol, which is a big hang-up for some), this is exactly the heart of legalism – ascribing instructions to God which are not his.
Andy Stanley’s series which examines the Ten Commandments, points out that it’s no accident that the third commandment – not taking the Lord’s name in vain – comes only after “have no other gods before me” and “don’t make any idols” for a reason:
“taking the Lord’s name in vain” is not simply using it in an oath or as an epithet (which much of Judiasm had reduced it to by the time Jesus came around), but rather, it is ascribing God’s name to something he didn’t say – the heart of legalism.
So, with things like alcohol, like you note, it comes down to a personal conviction that should not be handed down as an absolute from God. Like you, I could count the number of times I’ve consumed it on one hand, but unlike I used to be, I would not deem to force that decision on others.
Sure Chris L. can grandstand, but I have first hand knowledge that Zan has a liquor cabinet that can entertain an entire ship of sailors!
Brendt,
I wonder if might not be acurate to say that Eve’s sin was believing the lie about God and agreeing with Satan. In Hebrew, the word Satan means “Accuser” basically. He basically accuses God of not being good, i.e., he denies that essential character of God. In the end, it comes to whether or not we agree with Satan’s word or God’s. Do we really think that God’s way is best for us, or will we choose the one offered by the Enemy.
I think you’re onto something with the whole legalism thing. It is, in essence, putting words in God’s mouth. It really is a frightening thing if you think about it.
I think there a plenty of good reasons to abstain from drinking, and I might even encourage others to do so. But I can’t say it’s because of a Scriptural injunction. If we weren’t so quick to say, “the Bible says” for things it doesn’t, we might actually be able to persuade a few more people just by being honest with them.
Paul, thank you for the superlative! A good way to end the year!
Seriously, thanks for that Ezekiel reference. I had forgotten about that. A good reminder of how seriously God takes the sin of pride. But I don’t really see how it bolsters your point.
While it is certainly possible that not everything that God said to Adam and Eve about this issue was recorded in Scripture, I find it a bit unlikely that God would inspire Moses to record twice that He said one thing and that Eve said something different, and leave it at that.
Quite possible. And that may very well have been the driving force behind why she chose not to touch the tree. But she said that God specifically said not to touch it.
If you think this post is a promotion or defense of any kind of alcohol consumption, then there are big parts of the post that you are apparently willfully ignoring.
Phil, good point. The sin of the consumption of the forbidden fruit only followed (or was a result of) the sin of — apparently — agreeing with Satan.
But both are preceded by Eve’s lie about God.
Interestingly, she actually starts by defending God by shifting the primary focus from what God prohibited (which seems to be what the serpent zero’d in on) to what He allowed. Then she added that “don’t touch” junk, and everything started going downhill.
No, I think I came away with the fact this is not just alcohol but that we could substitute other things as well.
As I said, there is no sin in moderate consumption – unless your indulgence causes another to slip.
My main argument is that to call Eve the first legalist is completely inappropriate.
If anything most Christians today are being destroyed by a warped view of grace (anything goes) than legalism.
Outside of the nominal Christians, who probably don’t give such things as “grace” or “legalism” all that much thought, I would say that the church’s drift has always been towards ‘redefining sin’ – which is either legalism (when you’re ascribing do’s and don’t to God that aren’t His) or deviancy (when you’re ascribing ‘do’s’ to God’s ‘don’ts’ or vice versa). In fundamentalism, the trend is often toward legalism, and in evangelicalism, it is often toward deviancy.
1. Eve was taken from Adam’s side AFTER he was given the command by God not to from the tree. Genesis 2:15-25.
Therefore she never heard God’s exact words. Only Adam did; so there may have been something lost in the translation when Adam relayed the message to her?
2. If she was a liar she would have flat out denied having knowledge of the command. Her alleged “adding to” was neither a lie, nor sin,as their is reasonable doubt that Adam shared the command correctly.
3. If she was legalist she would not have eaten the fruit nor would she have given it to her husband. Carrie nation wasn’t a drunk. She was a legalist. So if Eve was a legalist, she would not have eaten the fruit, she would have chopped down the tree.
4. The serpent told a lie:
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
and used the truth to support the lie:
5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
God said in verse 22;
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
So God’s own words support the truth, that the serpent twisted for his benefit.
Here is original sin;
Gen 3: 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
Where do we find that Eve was “halfway there”? The pre-fall to the fall?
The fall in Eden is the same sin manifested at Babel and throughout the bible. Man desiring to be God.
So in acquiring the knowledge of good and evil we became as god unto ourselves. Mankind is doomed to endless debate over subjective ethical philosophies.( Like should I drink or not)
Can anyone say post-modern?
Eve did not “lie”, as no lie existed until the serpent opened his mouth a few moments later.
Compare this to what actually happened in Gen 2and 3
John 8:
“43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
No mention of a mother of lies.
This is one of the single worst abuses of scripture I have ever run into.
The strict meaning of legalism is ascribing works to salvation although it is a colooquialism to accept to mean as Chris described. I find it challenging to abstain from things that I feel God has directed me from without feeling self righteous and judgmental. One of my Bible professors once said,
“Others can, I cannot”.
“This is one of the single worst abuses of scripture I have ever run into. ”
Chris P., I am sure if you think a minute you will realize you have heard much worse. Have you ever heard of Charles Taze Russell? Mary Baker Eddy? Mrs. White? Joseph Smith?
And in today’s genre Joel Osteen? Brian MacLaren? Kenneth Copeland? See, you have heard a lot worse, no?
Ranks up there with the top ten…eh?
Eve did add to God’s words… that is what Scripture points out. Now, becuase she was not clear on God’s word, because if either placing more into it, or becuase she had not taking the one thing God spoke to Adam who shared it with her and dwell on it as God spoke, meaning that she could eat of every tree, she focused on the thing she should not do.
Man is designed to steer where we look. It was from looking that she touched… it was from touching that she ate. This was the seduction of the lie of Satan as he also twisted God’s word more.
The thing that gets me is the open sin of Adam who instead of going to God to talk it out, ate also with full revelation. In that they both walked in the garden with God, they should have talked to Him instead of trying to fix it on their own. That is legalism as they fixed fig leaved in order to cover their nakedness.
To deny that legalism was not there at that time misses that originally we were designed for relationship and we replaced it with impersonal religion.
be blessed,
iggy
I’m drinking wine tonight, who wants to take a shot at me?
=)
Happy new year guys and gals. God Bless.
Joe
Chris P. whoever you are, thank you for reading and reminding of the passages given to Adam in the Scriptures. Without quoting for times sake…..Adam was given two commands, subdue the garden and be fruitful and multiply. He was given the passage, not Eve. Neither was done. There were no children before the fall….what is with that? She was deceived but if you read, Adam was right next to her because she handed him the fruit. He abdicated his role….which me being a Senior Pastors wife, we see a lot in the leadership of the church…to his wife. He did not study the scriptures properly or live by them. Call it legalism if you want to…..but read the Word and apply it to your daily walk with the Lord. We are so far from understanding the Scriptures and living by them we would not know truth if it hit us in the face. Sometimes I am ashamed at the way we interpret Gods Word to fit our personal wants and desires. What the men and women of old sacrificed for us to be sitting here typing freely in America, we shall never know.
Ah, I see. So if more Christians commit sin A than sin B, then sin B shouldn’t be addressed.
Chris L — very good observation. Legalism and deviancy really are two sides of the same coin.
I can’t believe we are calling Eve a legalist – what a laugh this is! A legalist? I’m surprised no other ’scholars’ picked this up til now. Good grief.
Chris P: (numbering responses, since you numbered yours — this does make thing easier — thank you — honestly)
1. Good point on the chronology. Therefore Adam probably communicated the command to Eve. So the addition of constraint might have been his. If he ascribed it to God, then Adam’s the one who lied, not Eve. I find it hard to believe that something was “lost in the translation” before the fall. (Insert favorite joke about spouses not listening to each other here.)
For any truth, there are countless lies — not just one.
At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, “I stand by my previous statement.”
————-
So the stuff that Lucifer told himself was all true?
No mention of original sin, either.
Wow! Two superlatives in one post. I rock!!
The New Testament never hints at legalism from Eve. The Holy Spirit says she was deceived.
I must say I have noted this as you have also. That Eve add to the words of God. She add directives to what needs to be done in order to have life. This is always man’s religion. God says “don’t eat” we say “don’t touch.” God then says “Beleive in my promises. have faith” then we say Y”es but you must be____.” This is exactly what Eve did. Now there where many other sins that occured. Liek not having dominon over the serpant, insted they listened to seperant instead of God, sounds like Romans 1. Adam was the one to receive the command but did nothing to stop this and paratook as his wife had.
You make a great point here, I think that this is a great observation.
Side note on alcohol. We that are in Christ are a royal priesthood, all of us. In th OT the priest after the death of Aaron’s sons for offering strange fire and not treating God as holy as commanded never to taste strong drink. Just intresting that the priesthood and those totally commited to God(nazerens) where never supposed to let alcohol touch there lips. Also what was the main purpose behind alcohol in a none modern soceity? I pretty sure the main reason was for drinking, like water becasue the waters where some what unsafe. Did you know why Welchs made grape juice? To provide unfremmented wine for communion. Just so intresting stuff to think about.
What translation? Or am I missing something in the Hebrew?
Kyle, you raise some very good points!
Brendt – no offense was meant… I’ve heard quite a lot, but to draw a parallel between Eve and a legalist is a little laughable, no? That’s all I’m saying.
It seems today that any standards of holiness (in dress, music, for example) are simply shouted down by the more enlightened among us. I agree that man-made rules/laws are not correct, but neither is the proverbial “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” that goes on so often.
I agree with the tenor of the post and I disagree with both Chris P and Brendt’s explanation of the problematic phrase in the Genesis record. What I find most enjoyable is Brendt says: “I’m going to use the consumption of alcohol as an example here. If you are of the mind that every Scriptural reference to “wine†is really unfermented grape juice, then mentally substitute another example.”
The very first commenter deals with drinking and misses the forest from the trees! Again, simply amazing.
Um, no. If I thought it was laughable, I wouldn’t have posted it here.
Amen!
Joe, your notion of Rick missing the point was my initial reaction, too. But thinking about it (and knowing his history here), I gave him the benefit of the doubt. (And made sure with my follow-up comment.)
I liked your post Brendt. I mentioned something similar, about Eve going just a bit further than God even required, here. Here’s what I said, essentially:
The conclusion I came to, when I was teaching the lesson, was similar: adding to what God has said, even if I think I’m somehow helping it along or be more pure in a stricter form, is still wrong. I admit to not thinking of it in terms of legalism, but this is helpful.
Kyle,
Just to note on the priesthood and the consumption of alcohol:
1) Why single out the admonition against strong drink for the priests as currently applicable, but yet ignore the other admonitions for the priesthood, including not touching dead bodies, not wearing poly-blend cloth, etc.?
2) If you’re going to suggest that we follow a Nazarite vow, then does that mean we should not cut our hair, eat ANY fruit of the vine (including raisins), wear woven cloth, or eat meat (which is from a dead body)?
While it is an acceptable habit to avoid all alcohol, and perhaps ‘good’ for a number of reasons, to try to use the Bible as the source of prohibition, rather than personal habit/conviction, IS adding to the Word…
I’m just going to throw this out there. Maybe she didn’t add to it; maybe we don’t have it all. Maybe there is parts of this original that are still missing. It’s a scary thing to me to use a verse that has many possible explanations.
Joe, that was what I was trying to say in my comment (12:29pm) – though perhaps not as graciously as I should. Eve has been accused of a lot of things, but I think this play on legalism (to make a point that might not be there) is just a little off base. Of course, I could be wrong.
Why is it that when I decide that I’m gonna “help” God, it never works out well?
I have always wondered how alcohol got the bad rap. Jesus drank wine… the same stuff that they said to not be drunk off of. I have been drinking since I was 21. I have never been drunk — not even close. For me personally, I have found that my ability to drink in moderation has been a stronger testimony to my friends than trying to come up with some doctrine for abstinence.
But I support people that don’t drink too
You guys believe that Adam and Eve actually existed?
For the record, I drink. I’m about to drink a fine glass of Pino Noir. I have no problem with it, and I agree with the point Brendt was making. I just don’t like using this verse to do it. Paul C, don’t let the other guys know you and I agree. They might start stalking you.
For the record I drink too! All the time! Lots of it!
Preferably before any middle school event.
For anything involving Middle School I go strait to Coke. Gallons and Gallons of it.
Here is a little different perspective on this matter for you. I came out of a Catholic background (real wine in communion) and I am Italian. So I grew up in an atmosphere where we had wine with dinner and my parents often drank beer in our home. When I became a Christian, I heard some say that the Bible teaches abstainence and others say it is ok to drink in moderation. As I read the scriptures for myself, I could not find an absolute command one way or the other. What I did know, however, was that alcohol had caused many problems in my home. My parents were to casual to moderate drinkers-never to the point of being drunk. My husband’s father was an alcoholic. We both suffered in our early years (disfunctional families) because of someone’s use of alcohol. So, we chose not to drink at all -ever! (My husband is not a Christian.) It seems ironic now, though we had chosen to abstain ourselves, our lives are again being affected by someone else’s use of alcohol. We found out recently that our daughter whom we adopted at nine months of age is afflicted with fetal alcohol syndrome. She is 18 on the outside, but because of the damage alcohol did to her brain in utero, she will always be like an 8 year old on the inside and is plagued with mental illness. (She sits this day in a mental hospital because her behaviors have become more than we can physically and emotionally handle.) Her birthmom drank while pregnant. Did you know that even one drink is enough to damage a developing baby’s brain for life? -That there is no safe limit of alcohol in pregnancy? One drink may not seem like much to an adult body, but to a tiny developing fetus, it is a lethal amount. We are heartbroken because our daughter will never have a normal life -she is developmentally disabled and will probably struggle to live independently. There are very few services for these children as fetal alcohol is so poorly understood and rarely addressed by our society. I HATE alcohol now with a passion and hate the way it is promoted to young people, many of whom are having casual sex today. A woman can damage her baby unknowingly before she ever realizes she is pregnant. Maybe it is legalism to say the Bible forbids drinking alcohol. I don’t know one way or the other. But there is way too much love of alcohol today -it is a golden calf to so many and I hate that Christians defend it in any form. Why would we as Christians want to associate ourselves with something that can do so much harm? I try not to judge others who have a occasional drink but I do think it is a poor testimony considering the great harm it can do. Even just an occasional drink by a sexually active female could ruin a life-permanent damage-no cure!! Alcohol: drunk driving and loss of life from that; alcoholism-again lost lives and broken families/relationships; fetal alcohol syndrome-children damaged for life-human potential lost forever! And alcohol companies raking in billions of dollars every year selling their product, but giving little or nothing to those innocents that are damaged by it. I will not give these companies one dine of my money! Perhaps in Bible times they needed to drink wine as water was scarce or undrinkable. I don’t know, but it sure wasn’t the wifespread problem then that it is today -a real tool of the enemy in so many lives. There! You got my two cents worth! Happy alcohol free New Year to you!
That’s not a new perspective at all, Rose. It is very emotional and explains why you don’t drink. I’m curious, do you use other things that people have used to hurt children? I respect your position, I have friends that hold it and I understand it. I think you should express it and enjoy discussing it. A line is crossed when you start judging others for disagreeing when as you have said there is not a clear command in Scripture to abstain. BTW, I too am Italian. North or South Italy for you?
Rose thank you for sharing a portion of your story!
My prayers with you and your family. That God can and will use this for his glory.
Rick,
I for one cannot think of those who are more deceived… but those who are caught in the bondage of legalism.
be blessed,
iggy
Joe, My grandparents were from a tiny town called Ottati -probably more central Italy. No, I don’t knowingly use anything that hurts children. Why would I want to do that? My point was that some people unknowingly harm children by drinking alcohol in pregnancy-that even casual drinking can cause irreparable harm. Other people knowingly harm themselves and others in the way they use alcohol. I never said I ‘judged’ others for their decision to use alcohol. I said I hate that Christian people defend it and I personally feel it is a poor testimony to use it. Only God gets to judge people. I just get to express my opinion. No one has to abide by it because I am not God. I am not being legalistic -I did not say that the Bible expressly forbids it and therefore all you casual drinking Christians are hell bound. But I am trying to give you some perspective on what harm alcohol can do-more harm than most people realize. And, the alcohol industry (unlike the tobacco companies) gets off scot free. Remember when smoking was ‘in’? No more! It is politically incorrect to smoke now. Well, I wish the same thing would happen to alcohol, but it is only a dream. We love our booze-a sacred cow!
Thank you, Chris, for your prayers. God has been faithful in so many ways and I pray, too, that He will use our situation for His glory.
I don’t drink because my grandfather was an alcoholic and I know I’m rather addictive in a lot of areas. It’s no big loss, to not drink alcohol. I also don’t drink out of respect for my mother, who has a few strong feelings towards alcohol because of her growing up experience. Both are good reasons and people are pretty good about understanding when I tell them if I’m offered a drink.
I mean, if we’re going to turn this into a drinking thread, I figured I’d better join in.
Now, if we’re going to consider the actual topic, which is legalism and adding to what God requires, well, then. This doesn’t really fit here.
Would it be wrong to turn this into a drinking game? You know, down a shot everytime someone brings up alcohol?
Perhaps that’s tacky…
The theological insights I read on this forum are, dare I say, amazing. A new original sin wow
Chris P
As always I find yours to be the voice of reason on this forum keep up the good work brother.
When I drank, I didin’t glorify God so I asked Him to take away the desire for alcohol, it worked. I haven’t drank in years, but when I did drink, I did so according to the instructions laid out in Proverbs 31:6,7 KJV. I just didn’t know it at that time.
It is not for kings, O Lemmuel, it is not for kings to drink strong wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the the law, and pervert the judgement of any afflicted. GIVE STRONG DRINK unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. LET HIM DRINK, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more (Proverbs 31:4-7 KJV).
F Whittenburg
Brendt,
FYI – your observation about Eve has been made a number of times in pre-Christian and post-Christian Jewish commentary on the Hebrew Scriptures, with one example in Parshat Bereishith* where it is observed that she brought the eventual sin upon herself as is noted in Proverbs 30:6:
But of course, I’m sure someone will show up to tell us that we can’t trust anything written by Jews…
*FYI: Parshat Bereishith is a modern commentary, though I believe a similar observation is made in Babylonian Talmud…
Chris L, thanks for the info. Considering that I’m descended from Messianic Jews (although it’s been several generations), that gives me a warm fuzzy.
I guess I look at the alcohol issue the same way I look at anything else that’s overindulged. There’s a deeper underlying issue. Overeating, overspending…you’re trying to fill some void. Alcohol is no different. Obesity is more than food “just tasting good”, or a lack of willpower. There’s something else that drives self-distructive behavior. And until you can resolve those issues, it won’t matter what behavior you choose to mess up your life. You’re ability to make the right choice is already questionable. As the saying goes, You’ve already purchased the rope, now you just have to pick the tree.
So I guess that’s why I just don’t get the alcohol thing. Or maybe it’s because I’m a very infrequent drinker that I just can’t get my shorts in a knot over it. A beer at a ball game on a summer day…God’s going to frown on that? Especially when that’s probably no worse for you than a ballpark hotdog (Well, maybe 2 or 3 if its an extra innings game). Boy, I hope he has more important issues to tend to. A champagne toast at midnight? Is this really that bad? I think the half a tub of guacamole dip and chips I consumed played more havoc on my bloodstream than a glass of Asti.
And for whatever it’s worth, don’t you think there’s no real point in debating what was said, or not said by Adam and Eve in the Garden? If there was just those two, who was there to transcribe their conversations. Somebody at some point in time probably took some artistic license in the retelling of an event that probably never took place.
Happy New Year
Oh Man! Ball park hot dogs at Yankee stadium…or even better a ball park hot dog and a cold Yuengling at Shorebird Stadium. Thanks for that Kenn…2 months ’till P & C report.
Are you guys really suggesting that the majority of Christianity thinks the mere consumption of alcohol (or say, a pipeful of tobacco etc) is sinful?
Paula,
You need to get out more. I can show you whole states.
Paula-
“the majority”? Probably not.
A vocal minority? O yeah.
So Ken are you a christian?
If you beleive that artistic license was taken and that we can never know what was said, not in totality, between Adam and Eve then you call God and Jesus a liar. The bible was given, and the words, in it for our instruction and sundry other ends. To try and say we should not think that about Eve because we do not have the whole story is to say that God is trying to keep us in the dark.
I agree with this that Eve was legalistic in her attutidue towards the tree and the command of God that she heard through Adam. This is not new and has been noted by others before us. I still do not see why this is so unorthodx?
Newcenturion & Chris P.
What is so wrong with noting this about Eve? Is it a false doctrine that we are extracting from the Word? Does what is deduced by this narritive keeping in line with the rest of the bible. Bottom line why is it so crazy that say that Eve add to the command of God and the penalty that would follow?
Yes Kyle, I am a Christian, but I also have a healthy skepticism of some aspects of the bible. Maybe I’m just a product of my generation. I know I’m not alone when I speak as a Presbyterian confirmed in the mid 60s. We were taught that much of the bible is allegory. That doesn’t diminish it’s importance as a guidebook and anchor to a good life. I don’t think our minister was any more or less radical or liberal than most were at that time. Looking back on it, I think they wanted us to see the bigger picture, and not get too bogged down in the minutae of a bunch of facts that no matter how hard you try to rationalize them, hinge on your suspension of disbelief.
And I’m not saying that just to stir the pot. Aren’t you capable of at least a millisecond of doubt every time archiologists discover another set of dinosaur bones and tag them as millions of years old? And then you have to remind yourself, and wag your finger at the TV reporter that no matter how old they say it is…no matter how they calculate the age, it can’t be older than 6 thousand years old, ’cause the bible…..
And then you start to wonder. Why, with all their sophisticated scientific methods of dating fossils, can’t they come up with something around the 6 thousand year range, so it makes it all nice and tidy. Maybe because it is much older, and to say otherwise is a huge concession that compromises everything science stands for.
Just a thought.
Joe-
just thinking about spring training makes me feel like spring is the light at the end of this winter tunnel. Two months will roll around in no time!
Paula-
Joe and Chris L are correct. The issue of alcohol consumption never fails to peg the needle on the “sin-o-meter”. Along with other burning issues like dancing, rock and roll and all that other really horrible secular stuff. Helloooooooooooo. What decade, (or century) are we stuck in?
Kenn
Study Creationism vs. Evolution.
The only sound logical and reasonable explaintaion for life is a creator. Look up Anthony Flew. He is a Brithish philosopher and was a great athesist. Most of his arguments from the 50’s are still used today. he has come to the conclusion that there is a creator, not a christian God, but something had to do it. he points to micro-biology and many other things. he says he has to follow the evidence where it leads.
Doubts yes i do have them, but when I look to Christ He tends to help my unbelif.
Kyle, I do not want to get into this debate, but are you saying someone who doesn’t believe in Creation they can’t be saved?
Well if you say that God did not create the earth, humans, cosmos then yes you are not a christian.
But if you think God used some sort of theisitic evolution then I am not sure… I am not really sure about all of this. People throughout history have been christian’s while still holding to millions and billions of years. The debate is not of the age of the earth ect… but that indeed that God did do what He said, mainly that He created!
I was just trying to tell Kenn to dig into that kinda stuff deeper and you will be amazed at the evidence for the accuracy of the bible in terms of the sciences like geology, oriins, arechology ect…That is all I was trying to do.
Kyle,
I have studied Creationism vs Evolution.
And I do in fact believe that God created the whole thing. At some point in the story line, it all had to start somewhere, under some set of circumstances. I guess it all depends on what story line, and timeline, you can trust. And you’re right, people have embraced various degrees of evolution, and have been able to keep that separate from their core values as Christians.
But i think you’ll still find that the abundance of theory, and respected theory at that, still tilts in favor of “old earth”. I’d be a little careful using the word “evidence”. Theory is a bit more accurate. If it truly was evidence, then the whole issue would have been laid to rest a long time ago.
And for whatever its worth, I can’t quite wrap my head around “billions” either. The number is so out there, you can’t even find a way to put it in perspective. Just as 6 thousand, or ten thousand is incomprehensible on the other side of the spectrum.
I find the whole thing so fascinating because it’s become such a litmus test regarding one’s “Christianness”. As the defensive response usually goes, ” If you can’t believe all of it…you can’t believe any of it. You can’t cherry-pick through the book and adhere to the parts that make sense, and dismiss the parts that are questionable. As if the bible were a house of cards, and all you had to do is pull one card out and the whole thing would tumble. It don’t think its that fragile. I think you can be a believer and still have doubts about the literalness (if that’s actually a word) of it all.