*Update*
As Ingrid has updated the post linked to we can assume she has seen this. In continuing with her deceptiveness she has not acknowledged the facts surrounding the quote in any way. I did not just remove that post. I removed myself from the forum because the forum was getting spammed up by her followers. I figured if I removed myself, that removed their motivation, and so the users of the forum could go on in relative peace.

By now many of you have probably read the quote dug up by Ingrid which causes her to call me an “enemy of Jesus”. Let me add some context around this quote.

First, in the game mentioned I was playing the part of a bad guy. It was a role playing game in which I was the dictator of a nation which was expanding its power via war against innocent, non-aggressive democracy. As a result I was acting like a bad guy.

Secondly, soon after I posted that I was IMed by a friend of mine telling me I had gone overboard, at the same time I was messaged by one of the game administrator’s telling me the same thing. I apologized to the administrator, and to the person I sent the message to, as well as started a new nation which wasn’t part of the evil dictator coalition, in order to get a fresh start. I have also changed the way I play these games. The post which Ingrid referenced years old.

The reality is that I have played games like this longer than I have been a part of the kingdom of God. The way I played these games was a holdover from that time. Through the gentle confrontation of a brother I have repented and corrected the way I play.

But there’s some conclusions we can draw from Ingrid’s “journalism”:

Ingrid and the other watchkitties are inherently dishonest in the way they write.
In order to find that post Ingrid had to plow through years of posts on that board. That means she also had to have read my extensive defenses of the foundations of Christianity when our board was “invaded” by several atheists. She also had to completely ignore the encouragements, prayers, and devotions I’ve posted on there. In other words, she took .0004% of my total work and concluded that I’m an “enemy of Jesus”. With enemies like me Jesus doesn’t need friends.

Ingrid is a hypocrite
Earlier Ingrid linked to a post by Jim Bublitz in which he criticized me for spending too much time online. Ingrid read years of posts in order to craft a hit piece. If that’s not spending too much time online what is?

The Watchkitties do not preach the gospel
Instead of seeing sin as something covered by grace and the sinner reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, they see sin (or rather, sin of everyone but themselves) as an enemy of the gospel, instead of what the gospel is there for. Their attitude reveals that Jesus isn’t their savior, he’s just a way to separate who’s in with the in crowd.

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132 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 8:52 am

Tim – The pitfalls of role playing games are accurately depicted by that quote. Most lost sinners would never have said something like that. Even though it is a year and a half old, it still disturbingly represents a careless trend that has so strayed from Biblical guidelines that Biblical guidelines are no longer considered.

It isn’t just that type of quote that needs repentance, it is the entire careless and worldly attitude by the parts of the body of Christ that would ever imagine such things, game or not. I hope we all see something much more expansive than just this one horrible quote.

2   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 8:55 am

A year and a half to find a post. Well, she may want to send her resume to 60 Minutes. That’s terrible. On another thread a commenter said, “All you can count on is somewhere something is going on that Ingrid doesn’t like.” I was thinking about this with JB’s post where he proof commented to show what a bad guy you are . Where was all the quotes that warn about Ken, Ingrid and even Jim now and again? I don’t even think I’d have to proof comment for those.
Her comment proves how angry she really is. Another interesting fact is all the attention this site has gotten in the last month. For all the statements about how this site is pathetic and the inmates run the asylum and all that they’ve spent a significant amount of time attacking this site, specifically you and Chris L. I guess you can take comfort in the fact that is time they’re not spending on someone else. Just think, by this time next year we’ll probably be looking at Slice 6.0.

3   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 8:57 am

Good grief, Ingrid is about as dense as it comes… she can’t even link to the proper page so that one can verify you stated this!

Now, we all have some crap in our toilets… and this was at least dated back in 2006… so can’t a person change? I mean two years have gone by and she wastes how much time to fine this little to write about you and then does not even properly link to the quote to show you stated it? Lazy if you ask me and it should make her look worse than it supposedly makes you look. LOL!

Yet, most of her readers will not even notice any of that…

Now I even poked around to see if she was off a page and still did not find it.

You acknowledged it as sin, you repented and were forgiven while playing a fantasy game… and Ingrid props it up like it was an attack against Jesus Himself… the only attack is that Ingrid is not able to let things go and is a small petty person who cannot rise above her own self righteousness…

She needs to just grow up.

iggy

4   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 9:05 am

btw Tim,

I do not think that this would qualify you as an enemy of Jesus… using bad judgment maybe, but not an enemy of Jesus… I see no where in that quote an attack against the person of Jesus.

I say if your repentance was not good enough for Ingrid, Jesus still took it and accepted it and you.

Be blessed,
iggy

5   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:06 am

You acknowledged it as sin, you repented and were forgiven while playing a fantasy game… and Ingrid props it up like it was an attack against Jesus Himself…

I do find this bit particularly odd. I’ve been forgiven by the person I wrote that to, but Ingrid apparently still can’t forgive me.

I do hope she enjoyed my other 2499 posts. It seems if she didn’t enjoy them, she at least approved of them enough to not condemn them.

Tim Reed: 99.006% approved of by Ingrid.

6   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:07 am

Now, we all have some crap in our toilets…

Eeewwwww…..

Well, that’s one way to put it.

This whole thing reminds me of this exchange from a Simpson’s episode where Homer is applying for a loan, and the loan officer is looking at his credit history:

Man:  I understand that Mr. Simpson. But according to the computer, your credit history is not good.. It says here you’ve been pre-declined for every major credit card. It also says you once grabbed a dog by the hind legs and pushed him around like a vacuum cleaner.
Homer:  That was in the third grade!

Ingrid will find you out!

7   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 9:09 am

I, for one, am not one of the new pruient pastors, so I do not watch such filth as the Simpsons. Seriously, I’ve never seen an episode. Haha.

8   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:12 am

Joe,
It’s seriously about the only thing I watch on TV, excluding a few football games and Survivorman sometimes. I have like 8 seasons of the Simpsons on DVD, too.

9   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 9:16 am

I’m working on a post about you right now Phil. Did you see Ken’s latest missive where he claims to not be a fundamentalist and a certain preaher in Grand Rapids questions Ken’s salvation? It makes for good reading.

10   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:21 am

Tim,

Slice is now saying that you removed the post after they linked to it.

Please tell me this is not the case?

11   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:22 am

Joe,
Yes, I saw that. I was thinking of writing something about it. I just love how indignant Ken gets when he says, “well now, has Rob just questioned my salvation?”. I mean, seriously, Ken, are you that thin-skinned? He can dish it out, but I guess he can’t take it.

I also love the part where he says, “I’m not a ‘fundamentalist’ “. Comedy gold!

12   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
December 31st, 2007 at 9:26 am

Slice is now saying that you removed the post after they linked to it.

Please tell me this is not the case?

Actually I removed the entire account that had my name on it. They’ve been stalking me non-stop for some time now. Since that forum is the forum of a bunch of peeps I know in real life I figured I’d do my best to remove any motivation for unpleasantness. Due to Ingrid’s linking of the post we had a bunch of people signing up and spamming the forum with topics condemning a lot of people who were not me to hell.

13   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 10:12 am

Imagine, Ingrid’s people start condmeming people to hell. I, for one am shocked.
Phil,
Yeah, Ken is something else. Somehow, when I read his “I am not a fundamentalist” I thought of a former President of the U.S. who was fond of the peace sign and followed by a guy who’s name is also the last name of a motor company. Didn’t he say, “I am not a crook!” Wasn’t he lieing too?

14   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 10:16 am

You know, I was playing PS2 the other day. I only play sports games but I admit that I create players that could only achieve the strength they have by using PED’s if they existed in real life. Also, I run the score up often. I just wanted to get that out there.

15   Chris P.    http://jeremiahsquestion.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 10:30 am

“Instead of seeing sin as something covered by grace and the sinner reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, they see sin (or rather, sin of everyone but themselves) as an enemy of the gospel, instead of what the gospel is there for”

Hmmmm Tim Reed is God. He knows the hearts and minds of men. There, I said it.
I had my suspicions, but now it is certain.

Tim’s presumptuous statement is as blatantly false as can be.
You redefine fundamentalist. You redefine pharisee You redefine salvation. You redefine Jesus and the Gospel.
You are a credit to post-modern dogma.
The Gospel is all about reconciliation and forgiveness. It is not an excuse to blow-off sin.
The same Paul who preached grace so eloquently, also rebuked and instructed the church at Corinth.
You all know good and well that Ingrid, Ken, or anyone alse that you facbricate fiction about, believe what you just stated they believe.

“Since that forum is the forum of a bunch of peeps I know in real life I figured I’d do my best to remove any motivation for unpleasantness.”
Hmmmmm (again) Is that real life in comparison to the unreal blogworld? You afraid your buds might find out who you really are?

“Didn’t he say, “I am not a crook!” Wasn’t he lieing too?”

Wow, there are two Gods.

16   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
December 31st, 2007 at 10:38 am

I was waiting for Chris P’s bitterness and anger to come in here.

Hmmmmm (again) Is that real life in comparison to the unreal blogworld? You afraid your buds might find out who you really are?

Hmmmm Tim Reed is God. He knows the hearts and minds of men. There, I said it.
I had my suspicions, but now it is certain.

Draw your own conclusions about Chris P’s consistency.

17   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
December 31st, 2007 at 10:44 am

Also, Chris P, they know me better than any but my genetic family. They know my sin, they know my weaknesses, I’ve apologized to them in real life for sin committed against them in real life. They’ve helped me, taught me and supported me through some real trials. Coming on here acting like I’m trying to hide something is a joke. I’ve never tried to hide the fact that I’m a sinner. For the rest of my life I’ll be asking for forgiveness from people I’ve sinned against and from God. This has nothing to do with an unwillingness to change, or deliberately continuing in sin, and everything to do with the reality that by nature I am a sinner, a fallen creation in a fallen world. The gospel is the good news because its available to me.

18   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 10:47 am

Chris P, I will pray that God will save you from your obvious bitterness.

19   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 10:56 am

Seriously, though, what is the statute of limitations for sin? It seems for Ingrid, there is no such thing. She really had to work hard to dig this “dirt” up (even though it seems like a small offense to me).

When my dad was stationed at Fort Cambell, Kentucky, my parents attended a church where the pastor was actually a murderer. He served his time and got saved, and became a pastor. I know all kinds of stories like that. I think that it’s harder for some people to believe the Gospel is good news rather than God condemning us.

20   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
December 31st, 2007 at 11:22 am

I guess I’m confused as to the timeline/setting/incident here. You posted on a forum in a role-playing format as a bad guy and said that stuff Ingrid sampled, and now, a year and a half later, she found it. After she found it, you removed your entire account?

“Sinning” online is tricky, since it never goes away. There are blog posts I’d like to delete, but I won’t do that. So they’ll just haunt me. It’s a good reminder to write carefully. However, something like “I had sex with your mother” is pretty disgusting…and I’d probably want that taken down, too. I’d hope I’d not have written it, even if I was “playing” a role.

Role-playing…do you still do that now? May I ask why? What do you get out of it? I hope it isn’t a way for you to be a person you know you can’t be in real life because of Christ. I know people into those sim website lives who are Christians but their sim lives are absolutely awful. They purposefully have characters that do terrible things. I see that as a way for letting out something they are trying not to acknowledge is in them. I also see it as a problem, though not one I’ve seen talked about too much (beyond the old Dungeons and Dragons brouhaha when I was a kid) — the new role playing online is different… I’m curious about your thoughts on role-playing.

Frankly, I’m less interested in the starch-and-pew reaction this actual case received over at Slice, and more on the entire of topic of role-playing and Christians. There’s the story, in my opinion.

On a flippant note, since you’ve removed your quote and account and all that was written, and Ingrid has posted it on her blog, you could threaten to sue. If you’re into the whole “turnabout is fair play” instead of “turn the other cheek.”

21   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 11:31 am

Tim,

I’m surprised that Ingrid would bring this up–after all, isn’t this ‘under the blood of Christ’? (PS–I have done a little writing about this at my own blog. I’m not advertising, but suffice it to say that I wrote last night (finished at midnight or so) and already I have been visited.) I am glad that you are growing in your faith. I hope you will continue growing in Christ and experiencing his daily grace and forgiveness.

jerry

22   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
December 31st, 2007 at 11:40 am

Is it just me, or does Chris P. sound more and more like a Pharisee every day? all the “YOU! YOU! YOU!” just gets a bit old.

Hey Chris… better clean up that prayer shawl.

On a side note… I love how Ingrid jumped the gun by calling you a gaming addict. Pretty funny.

23   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
December 31st, 2007 at 11:43 am

Wow, Jerry. You really did write a post, didn’t you?

Good stuff. Here’s the link.

24   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Tim,

Having been involved in RPG’s in the past, it was pretty obvious to me what you did, and I’m glad you repented of it. I will say, though, that something offensive like that should have been deleted.

While I still RP with friends on rare occasions, I have always kept my own rule that I do not RP characters whose moral systems are diametrically opposed to my own – specifically so that I don’t end up where you did on that occasion.

As for digging up dirt, you can be sure that Ingrid, Ken, Jim and others will comb the ‘net for the past sins of anyone involved here, no matter how trivial. It’s the profession of a pharisee to look for the tiniest fault, blow it up into apostasy, and to become the indignant legalist that lurks within… I’ve been involved in forums on the ‘net since 1994, and I’m sure I’ve said rash things (though not necessarily crude ones), but I’ve always tried to hold my tongue in check both as a witness and because words spoken in cyberspace will always exist somewhere on some archive.

It seems to me that you repented of this long ago and I don’t see the need to hammer you over the head with it. Expect, though, that the modern pharisees will link to it for the next few years every time you happen to speak the truth about them as ad homenim proof to deny their own reality.

25   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 2:31 pm

Chris P,

All you seem to spout these days is incoherent rants filled with bitterness and hate fueled by your anger… I for one have almost stopped reading your rants as they have even lost their entertainment value. LOL!

Anger is a sin and you need to be free of it by the Blood of Jesus. It is hurting only you.

Still praying for you,
iggy

26   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 3:12 pm

Julie,

Thanks for the feedback. I had no idea that my short post would generate so much discontent among those I wrote to (with the exception of Tim Reed who seems to understand grace.) What prompted my response was the whole ‘enemy of Christ’ comment. That is a statement that needs to be repented of because to accuse a preacher of the Gospel as being an enemy of Christ when he has not denied the faith is reprehensible and I could not allow it to go unchallenged. I don’t even know Tim, but I’m liking him more with each passing moment and my prayers are already going up for him. The sort or arrogant judgmentalism from certain bloggers is beyond reproach and, since they don’t even acknowledge their own sin, worse than statements made by Reed who saw his sin and repented.

On a side note, concerning RPG’s and other video games. I have three sons who love playing video games. We just got a PS3 for Christmas and some new games to go along with it. We also got Guitar Hero for PS2. I love playing them all. I figure it this way, if I can keep my sons interested in video games until they are married then perhaps I won’t have to deal with pregnant girlfriends, teenage drug addiction, internet pornography, and a host of other issues that kids get to deal with nowadays. In the summer we run, play baseball, and go hiking. In the winter we shoot zombies and find gold bolts in Ratchet and Clank and throw touchdowns on Madden. I could be wrong, but I’m trying hard to remember which one of the 8,537 OT & NT laws prohibit the Christian from playing video games during their time away from the worries and cares of this world, as an extension of their freedom in Christ.

Shouldn’t all things be received with thankfulness? Are not all things permissible even if not necessarily beneficial?

Well, as I have been trying to point out at my blog: Thank God for Grace. When it’s all said and done, all we have is the hope of the Grace of God in Christ. And each of us will give an account of ourselves. No one will have to account for me, and I will account for no one else. Everyone else will have dropped their stones and walked away, the older ones first, until it is only me and Jesus left standing. Ahh, forgiveness!

Tim, be strong in the Lord. My prayers are lifted for you.

jerry

27   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 3:49 pm

Jerry,
The comment section in that post is pure Gold. She’s exposing something that happened (and was forgiven over a year and a half ago). If rooting through someone’s past to find the dirt doesn’t speak of legalism, what does? The only people who express more fervor in finding dirt is politicians and their aides. Amazing.

28   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
December 31st, 2007 at 4:18 pm

Jerry,
Thank you for your kind words. Interestingly enough I’ve been shown more love, grace, and forgiveness by the two individuals in that RPG that I sinned against than I was my watchkitties.

Something to keep in mind the next time they start to talk about someone not teaching/preaching the gospel.

29   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 4:22 pm

Here is my favorite quote from Ingrid on the thread:

It is a case of long term provocation by a man who says he is a pastor and shepherd of souls.

or said another way
My sin is OK because he’s been mean to me for a WHOLE year…

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 4:31 pm

Just to be clear, although I’ve made my thoughts about the quote clear, the “enemy of Jesus” moniker is why I no longer “fellowship” with Ken or Ingrid. That phrase is as careless as it gets.

It has become evident in 2007 that many cannot give strong and even confrontational opinions without questioning someone’s salvation. But the “enemy of Jesus” goes beyond questioning someone’s salvation. I consider Driscoll a part of the Bride as well. I wanted you to know, Tim, that all my comments were about the issue and I never thought you were what Ingrid said.

It is sometimes difficult to agree in principle with some without being broadbrushed as well.

31   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 4:31 pm

Jerry,
Well, I see your post has brought the wrath of the Sanhedrin. It’s just amazing to me that they still feel justified to complain about anyone calling them names. It’s like some sort of Bizarro-world.

I just want to know who appointed these people to be the watchers. Apparently it is their job to bring all pastors’ sins everywhere from anytime to light.

32   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Have you seen Ken’s last linkage to some poor guy who just became a father this year? His sin? He has a cigar and a beer listed on his best of list.

33   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 4:42 pm

Joe,
Yeah, it’s just gotten beyond sad. I think Ken just has too much time on his hands if that what qualifies as “research” now. I think we should pray that 2008 finds Ken blessed with a new job.

34   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 4:44 pm

Phil,

Oh, the wrath has been mighty and even though I have enjoyed the dialogue it has taken a toll on my spirit today. Thanks for the refreshment.

Rick,

If you had written at my blog what you wrote here, you and I would probably be getting along a lot better. If you had recognized that I too was interracting with ideas, and not calling into question people’s salvation or standing before the Lord, you and I would be fast friends.

jerry

35   Kyle in WI    
December 31st, 2007 at 4:57 pm

Just a quick question for you all. Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge both in their conduct and doctrine? Is it not out job to be worried about the holiness in this world right now of the bride of Christ. See 1 Cor 5.

So is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge and not those outside?

36   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 4:58 pm

Even Silva’s hero Spugeon smoked and drank.

37   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 5:05 pm

Kyle,
Judgment, as you put it, should only come in the context of a relationship. A pastor of a local church is accountable to the board and congregation of that church, not a bunch whiners with internet connections who take it upon themselves to police the body of Christ.

The case of the immoral dude in Corinth is a good example. Paul started that church. He was in a sense responsible for the people’s growth. He was personally invested. He wasn’t just writing to strangers. He knew and worked with these people. The ODM’s probably couldn’t recognize half the people they wrote about if they saw them on the street somewhere.

38   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 5:29 pm

Jerry,

I’m also in your “non-denominational denomination” (and have been since I was born). Just wondering – did you go to CBS (now CBU) as well?

Blessings,

Chris

39   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Kyle, think about this: they had to sort through his blog for some amount of time. Does that sound Godly to you? Do you see the fruit of the spirit in their writings? They openly condemn people to Hell (not the real bride etc.), they miss quote, and then when they are criticized they act surprised. Come on Kyle, you’re smarter than your questions.

40   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
December 31st, 2007 at 5:32 pm

I think all video games are evil, carpal-tunnel inducing, mind-numbing, book-reading-time-robbing, brain-gelling evil.

Oh, yes.

Is there anything more annoying than sitting around with a bunch of 30-something guys and having to suffer through them air guitar their air guitar feats of skill from Guitar Hero?!!! No!

Arrrrgh!

I am reading Diane West’s book “The Death of the Grown-Up.”

Confession: When I was little, we had one of the early Atari systems. I used to love Asteroids. BUT I HAVE SINCE REPENTED!

41   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 5:35 pm

Julie, You shouldn’t say that. :) See, I read your blog.

42   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
December 31st, 2007 at 5:38 pm

Julie,

I play a REAL guitar. Although I’ll be the first to admit I’m not a real hero…

43   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
December 31st, 2007 at 5:38 pm

(grrrrr.)

44   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 5:42 pm

Guitar hero and it variants are the hasten the downfall of Western Civilization. It’s followed closely by World of Warcraft.

45   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 5:43 pm

OK, I’m off to play PS2 (NCAA) with my PED enhanced players. Julie, have you started reading Myth yet?

46   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 5:45 pm

I play “Lord of the Rings Online” instead of WoW to help hasten the end of civilization…

47   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 5:46 pm

OK, robbymac, I play guitar also, but I’m much better at keyboards. I write praise and worship music and lead in worship. I am wildly Charismatic in worship, I think we could really glorify Jesus together!

48   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Julie,

I remember those days of Asteroids, Pac-Man, and Tempest. I think you are being sarcastic, but I have found that I can enter into some very realistic conversations with middle school aged children because I know (and play) these games. They are not my life, but the kids are. I want any avenue that I can to be salt and light in their lives. (I work at a Middle School 5 days a week.)

Chris,

I actually was ‘baptized’ as an infant in the Methodist Church. I was immersed in the Church of Christ at 13 and have been a Christian since then. I went to Great Lakes Christian College. I graduated about 13 years ago, and now, after 12 years of preaching, bringing three children into the world, 16 years of marriage, and at the ripe age of 37 I am going back to Seminary at CCU. I’m taking Doctrine of Grace in Feb/Mar/April. I’ve been reading a lot about grace lately which is one reason why this conversation intrigues me and specifically why I think that Slice and Apprising are wrong for what they did to Tim Reed.

I have really grown weary of the notion by many so-called Reformed bloggers and authors that anyone who is not Reformed is a sinner going to hell. For all their talk about grace, they display a surprising lack of it in their Headship of the church. I have wondered for some time who these people are accountable to which is why, in my blog post, I asked what pulpit they preach from each week. It is two different things entirely to talk into a radio mic (so, Slice) or to be an internet ‘pastor’ (so, Aprising) and stand behind a pulpit (so, myself and others) Sunday after Sunday preaching to the disciples of Jesus.

But that is more than you asked for. I appreciate the space given me today to clear out some of my thoughts on this subject of which I have much more to say; about grace that is. Happy New Year.

jerry

ps–my son just rattled off a 349 note streak on GH2.

Joe, I agree with your thoughts to Kyle. Thank you.

49   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 5:49 pm

All,

I started playing guitar about 3 years ago. Our Church’s praise band is called Mustard Seed. Guitar Hero is much, much harder.

jerry

50   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 31st, 2007 at 5:53 pm

That’s probably because your using those cheat books!

51   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
December 31st, 2007 at 5:55 pm

Guitar Hero is much, much harder.

Blasphemy!!!

52   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 6:11 pm

ps–my son just rattled off a 349 note streak on GH2.

GH2???? That is so 6 months ago!

Jerry I started to think that were post-modern but apparently not!

53   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 6:21 pm

I’ve been out all day but for the record…

Ingrid pointing out the forgiven sin of someone else that was not committed against her from over a year ago is exactly what I expect from her.

The fact that she tried to defend justify her actions by stating “well so and so sent me the link in an email I didn’t have to search at all” is the epitome of a heresy hunter.

Furthermore Ingrid constantly spins the barometer of what is in bounds and what is out of bounds. The myriad of names, assumption, innuendo, and flat out lies she spews and supports from the likes of Ken, Dwayna, Jim, and Purposedrivel.com is not a problem but Tims “attacks” are just too much to bear. Gimme a break.

54   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 6:29 pm

Chris,

Thanks for the laugh. They’re working on GH3 too, but hey, one game at a time. I’m trying to beat two different Ratchet and Clank games while waiting on Resident Evil 5. Oh, the wait.

jerry

Seriously though, I hope that the world can find some peace and grace and hope in Jesus.

55   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
December 31st, 2007 at 6:52 pm

For the record we now have another person from Michigan posting on this site.

Michigan has all the great theologians. Rob Bell is our President. LOL

Happy New Year all.

56   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 31st, 2007 at 6:59 pm

Jerry,

I have a number of friends from GLCC, though they went there about 20-25 years ago. Being only 2 hours from Cincy, though, I know a lot more CCU folks.

My oldest son went on a summer tour with a singing group from GLCC 3 years ago, though, and greatly enjoyed it. He’s at Purdue now, studying Acoustical Engineering and singing with the Purdue Varsity Glee Club. My younger son is still in HS, and I think his highest streak on GH3 is 200 or so…

Blessings,

Chris

57   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
January 1st, 2008 at 1:50 am

Julie, have you started reading Myth yet?

Not yet…it’s two books down in my pile. Aack! So much to read!

Regarding gaming…I do like this video.

58   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
January 1st, 2008 at 5:05 am

Rick, I play a bit of keyboard (I have Grade 8 Conservatory piano, but am WAY rusty!), guitar, djembe, attempts at harmonica, a wee bit of dulcimer and mandolin, but my main instrument (meaning: the one that people ask me about for recording or touring) is bass guitar. Which is also my favourite instrument! :)

I’ve never tried GH, although my 10-year-old beats me to a pulp on the Wii boxing thing…

59   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:09 am

OK, I’m off to play PS2 (NCAA) with my PED enhanced players.

Joe I do the exact same thing with the exact same game.

My Michigan team is 47-0. Averaging 49 points a game, 400 yards, and my wide reciever (6-7, 210 pounds, 4.3 speed) won the Heisman four years in a row.

60   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 9:14 am

LOL, I’m actually in year 8. I’ve never stuck this long with a game (I have 07). It was my QB for the first four years. He didn’t get it his Jr. year as he was hurt mid-season. Now, I just recruit those big players. I’m thinking about leaving good ole PSU for Colorado or NC. Bring a little winning ways to them. My wife laughs at my brother in law and me when we talk about this stuff.
If you ever make it over here to Mecca/God’s Town/Spawn of Satan depending on who you are talking to, we’ll have to play.

61   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 9:23 am

Does this mean we’re “addicted to gaming” and no longer part of the “true church?” BTW, wasn’t that the wording that was used as an excuse to burn people at the stake and torture people? Ah, the good old days before we needed ODM sites to help us fight the “culture wars.”

62   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:36 am

Does this mean we’re “addicted to gaming” and no longer part of the “true church?”


All
things are permissable but not all things are beneficial.”

“For man is a slave to whatever has mastered him”

Back to the original point of this post. Anytime you create a list of rights and wrongs to control actions, that you deemed as unbeneficial, you essential become a slave to the list and no longer a slave to Christ.

If you ever make it over here to Mecca/God’s Town/Spawn of Satan depending on who you are talking to, we’ll have to play.

Now that’s funny.

63   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 1st, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Little boys. I’m afraid that is all I see here.

And I really hope I don’t have to explain this. Just read down trough this meta. It sounds like a junior high recess.

64   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Well, we all hope to aspire to be just like you Cowboy

65   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Now, that was a good drive by. He was able to puff his chest out, get all judgmental and act superior all in four sentences. Impressive

66   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
January 1st, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Its a good thing the watchkitties don’t have any sinners in their churches.

67   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 1st, 2008 at 2:19 pm

S.J. Walker,

So, i guess that your support of Ingrid’s condemnation of a forgiven person (both by Jesus and the offended parties) is more mature?

All I can say is this:

“Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”

“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

“So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,’ forgive him.”

So… How did Tim sin against Ingrid? And since Tim repented and was forgiven how does Ingrid justify that she can dig up forgiven sins and publish them on her site? If you ask me this again is more like one called the Accuser of the brethren than one who understands the verse that states, ” Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. In fact I see that on who acts like Ingrid is fits this verse better!

1 Corinthians 3

1. Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly–mere infants in Christ. 2. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

I urge you and Ingrid to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

iggy

68   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Little boys. I’m afraid that is all I see here.

And I really hope I don’t have to explain this. Just read down trough this meta. It sounds like a junior high recess.

S.J. I’m not quite sure what you’re implying. I suppose you’re referring to the fact that Ingrid found it right to gossip about a brother in Christ. That certainly seems Junior Highish to me.

Before you say “It wasn’t gossip” please explain how someone who wasn’t involved in the situation feels justified to post it a year and a half after the fact. Then she goes on to suggest, for the “Amen” choir, that a brother who has repented is now an enemy of Jesus. Is that what you meant by Junior Highish?

It reminds me vaguely of “Jennifer” from Junior High. When I told her that I didn’t want to dance with her she spread the rumor around the school that I was gay.

And since you’re such an expert on Junior High verbage: Can you explain how following rises up to “Adult” discussion?


Found Here

Driscoll is one of those individual I am still, trying to figuring out. Honestly, I need to do more homework. But he strikes me, from what i have seen and do know, that he is kind of like the dead clock–he is EXACTLY right twice a day. The rest of the time…

69   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Now, see Chris, I just finished playing a little PS2 but even I figured that one out. I admit I was a little thrown off by the comment about cocaine, but then I realized the truth. They link to SJ.
So…what do I win? I don’t have any Madden.

70   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
January 1st, 2008 at 6:47 pm

(Do you guys want to know a little secret?)

I would say about 80 percent of the women I know agree with me: guys and gaming is a weird thing which gets annoying after not too long a while. I can’t recount the number of conversations I’ve had with my female friends on this matter, and the amount of eye-rolling that occurs.

I confess, up front, that I don’t get it. What in the world is the draw? I don’t get the “fun”, the drive, the want or need to play a game. It’s not real. It hurts my eyes after a while. I doesn’t amount to anything that matters, does it? I mean really — what does it amount to? I have no idea what all these initials and acronyms and things you guys are talking about even mean.

I absolutely don’t get it. And, I admit, that when I find out a guy is really into sitting around and playing video games it’s a…rather big turn-off.

Asteroids. Fun, when I was 10. But mid-30’s? Eh?

Sorry. :-(

Disclaimer: This is Julie’s opinion, and not theology.

71   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 7:05 pm

Haha. Julie, I’ve been married almost 9 years. Do you want my list of things that women do that no man understands in alphabetical order, order of importance, randomly picked, simply slapped down? I suppose because I am married I’ve never worried about it being a “turn off.” I thought that was what happened when one of the kids woke up screaming at an inopportune time. :)

72   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Julie:
I work in an office where EVERY lunch hour–EVERY day is taken up with a “first person shooter” game. They (mostly younger guys) pick sides, come up with strategies, etc.; they all wear little headset/mics so they can talk back and forth throughout the building. I don’t play — mainly because I don’t have the hand/eye coordination (over 30 syndrome). I also find the whole thing a bit silly. I keep waiting for one of them to lay in the floor and kick in a circle the next time they lose!

The half hour after lunch is also taken up discussing “how many kills did you have” or “did you see me blow that guy’s face off” or “man, were you using the sniper rifle?”

73   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 8:41 pm

Keith,
And yet you had a record year! Imagine if you had these games years ago! :)

74   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 8:54 pm

Hey, Joe. You may be on to something…or MAYBE, we would have had an even BIGGER/BETTER record year if people were more concerned about their work than whether to throw the grenade or smoke bomb…NAH!!!!! 8^)>

75   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 1st, 2008 at 9:00 pm

Julie,
Gaming is something you will probably never understand. I was stood up one time over a Civil War game. He was suppose to pick me up at one in the afternoon and I never heard from him until eight o clock that night. The excuse…………sorry I was playing this great game! You happen to know the person!lol We fought the first year of marriage over the Play station. Come to find out my sister and her friends have all had these fights as well. I watch Joe play and I am amazed at the amusement he gets out of the games! Once I decided the play station was never going to go away I actually find it cute watching him play it. He escapes in a totally different world for a while. And nine years of marriage and the play station never effects my life, that is not true, I want to say not nice words when I am trying to vacuum the floor and the play station is in the way!lol

76   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:03 pm

Julie and Keith,

Let me go on record as saying that I have no shame in still playing video games at 35 years old. Which again for the record I play 1 video game and thats NCAA football. I play 1 game a day (30 minutes tops). Quite frankly it doesn’t strike me as immature. Just like playing Uno, Monopoly, Life, Sorry, Apples to Apples, etc…isn’t viewed as immature by my wife or most of my friends.

As Joe mentioned I could come up with a list of things that don’t make sense to me. But let me just throw out one: “Christian” romance novels. My friend owns a used book store in town and he as an entire wall full of Beverly Lewis books. There his number one seller!

77   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 9:05 pm

LOL, Erica do you play PS2 games? Tiger woods, Crash Bandicoot? Snowboarders? Why not say the words you were thinking? Afraid Ingrid will pick them up? And we did not fight the first year of marriage over the play station! That’s funny. I only remember one fight over the play station, and as I recall you were the one playing, not me. :)

78   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
January 1st, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Julie, I’ve been married 36 years. I KNOW what fear is, I ain’t sayin’ nuthin’!

79   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Our first video game fight was over Mario Kart and my wife was the one playing too! LOL

80   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:34 pm

My problem is I’m probably too old to appreciate video games (I guess). I remember playing one of the very first “pong” games on my cousin’s TV! Now those were some really cool “graphics!”

I guess playing video games is no worse than spending –sometimes hours– on a blog…oh, man, did I really say that?!

81   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 9:38 pm

Here’s what I don’t understand when this topic comes up. There are people that assume because you play video games (not saying anyone here) that you can’t be productive for real life. Sometimes, my best stuff was born while I was playing a game. Sure, there are people who have issues with video games but that goes for a lot of things. During the semester I only play during the weekend, and then only if I can. It’s not like I need a fix. How many hours do people waste watching T.V.?

82   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 9:48 pm

Joe: Having read your blog, your comments here, as well as the comments of others, it seems reasonable that the time you spend playing video games is far surpassed by your time in the Word/preparation for teaching or classes, etc. As you stated–people waste time watching TV. The sad part about the guys at my office…they wouldn’t spend 1/10th of the time reading Scripture as they do in the online game rooms or pretending to shoot each other.

83   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 9:54 pm

Yeah, I have to be honest I know people like that. I even know pastors like that. It’s not the “thing” because it can be video games, T.V. Fantasy/Fiction/non-fiction books, heck–it can be anything. I always feel sad for those guys. How would you like to be 75 and say I did ____________. And it’s just something stupid. That would stink.

84   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 1st, 2008 at 10:15 pm

I’ll bet the author of slice is a big fan of Tony Hawk’s Pro-Skater. I’ll just bet she is.

How’d you like to be 75 and say, “All I did with my life was point out everyone else’s sin and never offer them any grace.”

THAT would stink. But I guess it would be fun; sort of.

85   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
January 1st, 2008 at 10:43 pm

It’s a plastic control in your hand shooting electronic signals at nothing!!!!

Why?!!!!!

Keith, your work situation…I could do some serious eye-rolling there. I would definitely give those yahoos the old stink eye.

IN FACT, I’M DOING IT RIGHT NOW! DO YOU GAMERS SENSE IT?!

86   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 10:46 pm

Well, personally I always found girls that got all exercised over guys playing video games to be a bit of a turn off. I’m just saying…

87   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 10:56 pm

I don’t know, I tend to agree with Julie. I mean, I don’t think video games are sinful. I certainly played my share of Nintendo back in the day. Right now, though, I tend to see them as a waste of time. The worst thing I find is that the guys I know who play them seem to lose all sense of time when playing them.

88   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Phil, I don’t disagree they can be a waste of time but everything you said could also be said of 100 activities. I bet you do at least one of those. I know a guy who wouldn’t watch T.V. because it “was a waste of time” but he had thousands of fictional books. The day God convicts me of playing games, I’ll stop. Until then, I find it amusing how worked up people get on both sides of the issue. And we’ve already addressed the guys who lose all sense of time.

89   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 11:10 pm

OK, as much fun as this has been, and as tempted as I am to “waste” another bit of time playing my PS2. I’m off to bed to read a book about our nation not being all that Christian ever. Don’t tell anyone I don’t want to have to turn in my gaming card. I used to set a goal to read 100 books every year. I made it 8 years in a row. Two years ago, I missed and last year I missed (64 and 45 respectively) but hey, I’m a gamer I must waste all of my time and never get anything productive done. I mean we all know someone who is like that because of gaming! Don’t we?
Relax I’m having fun and making a point. Big SMILE!!

90   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 1st, 2008 at 11:10 pm

Joe,
I don’t get all worked over it. I really don’t care that much. The only time I really have had to deal with it is with a few of our students. There’s a couple of guys in our group in particular that really seem to be almost addicted to gaming, but like you said it can happen with almost anything.

Personally, I don’t see the appeal most of the time, although, I will admit, I enjoy playing Madden with my brother once in a while. It’s worth it just for the dumb commentary – “You see, he’s trying to throw the ball into the end zone on this play…”

91   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 11:12 pm

LOL, my brother in law and I joke about the commenting.

92   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 1st, 2008 at 11:16 pm

And just to be clear, I don’t think that you, Phil or Julie or anyone else here has been all that worked up over this, it’s just been fun. OK, now I am off to bed and reading.

93   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:19 am

Chris,
In regards to your comment at 3:06. That really didn’t make your point if you were trying to accuse hypocrisy, or arrogance. That was straw man grasping for straws himself.

If that is what you deem non-”adult” conversation, you..oh, I’m wasting my time. Simply put, poor argument Chris. Period.

And to the rest of you: did I address Ingrid? No. Did I defend her? No. Did I, as “iggy” so eloquently put it:

So, i guess that your support of Ingrid’s condemnation of a forgiven person (both by Jesus and the offended parties) is more mature?

?
No.

Did I, in fact, even mention Ingrid? Did I even bring up, specifically, the subject matter? Forgive me, for I am guilty of driving by, and, by all literal indication of my comment, it was rather off topic.

That being said, I might ask:
Who was jumping to conclusions? Most of you.

Who went to another post to dig up “dirt”(I can’t even give points for “nice try” on that one) on someone? Chris

I read the post. I read the comments. I saw that there was much talk of Ingrid pulling a beam out of her eye. After that, all that was really visible was what I pointed out–boys, little boys. I am as much a sinner as anyone, even a chief, but I do know this, Tim: when someone accuses me of sinning (now, yesterday, or when I kicked the doctor for delivering me) my should NOT be “I said I was sorry!”

No, regardless of how it was dredged up, if it was sin, especially one as horribly disgusting as that, would not a contrite heart removed it completely? I’m asking, is there a difference in being sorry for being caught, and being convicted? Sorry doesn’t cut it my friend when more than a year goes by and that is still wafting on the internet for many to see. I’m not accusing you of being an enemy of Christ, or even that you haven’t indeed repented, I am asking you if you see these two options as equivalent.
Hint, they aren’t.

Say Ingrid is a hypocrite. Say whatever you like, she is capable of defending herself on this one. I need not and did not. I addressed the issue I had with you all.

You boys proved the point of the comment without me saying another word.

Now you see why I did not want to have to explain my first comment. What I saw today did not make me think better of your self-proclaimed efforts at being an example of truth in contrast to CRN. It forced me to flash back to a walk through the mall here in my hometown, overhearing some boys snickering outside the arcade.

What great men of God. What great antonyms for your enemies–all both of them. I’m not old, far from it, and I’m even farther from being what I should be. But oh, you make me tired.

By crying “hypocrite! hypocrite!”, even when true, you think it as much as you cry it. And you cry it much. You cry what you think and you think what you seem to be yourself. It is inevitable. We are all susceptible, including Ken and Ingrid.

I’m going to bed. The day is wasted.

94   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:27 am

S J Walker,

You really sound like a sane person… (not meant as a point down, just an observation) as if you comment on a thread then one assumes that they are commenting on the article… fair assumption to me at least… sound fair to you?

Now as one of the people that you stated this to…:

Little boys. I’m afraid that is all I see here.

And I really hope I don’t have to explain this. Just read down trough this meta. It sounds like a junior high recess.

You sound more like a schoolyard bully taunting others at this point. I took this comment offensive and find it funny that now you quote me as speaking “eloquently”. It sounded as if you were defending Ingrid to me also.

So, you just sound as confused as most of the ODM’s to me at this point ever defending but not, yet encouraging one’s own, but attack those who are not…

I really do not get you at all… it all seems so wishy washy and subjective to me how you guys pick and choose your values and scriptures you think are worthy to give creed to!

MY day is never wasted… it begins with Jesus and ends with Jesus… it is always His day.

iggy

95   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 7:44 am

In regards to your comment at 3:06. That really didn’t make your point if you were trying to accuse hypocrisy, or arrogance. That was straw man grasping for straws himself.

I wasn’t building a case for anything! Other than looking for clarification on your inane “little boy” comment.

Thanks for the clarication and the apology. YOUR FORGIVEN!
BTW so was/is Tim!

96   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 am

No, regardless of how it was dredged up, if it was sin, especially one as horribly disgusting as that, would not a contrite heart removed it completely? I’m asking, is there a difference in being sorry for being caught, and being convicted? Sorry doesn’t cut it my friend when more than a year goes by and that is still wafting on the internet for many to see.

I didn’t bother removing because the individuals involved weren’t named, nor did they frequent that forum. I just didn’t think to, and I never expected Christians to act like Richard Nixon.

97   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 am

SJ,
Here’s a couple of problems with your comment.
1. The conversation had already turned more light hearted. We were discussing something else. (video games)
2. Your quote which Tim has already made reference to is silly. Now, you’re the Holy Spirit? Now you know when some one is contrite? The people that actually know Tim, who have seen his flesh and bones have forgiven him but you can’t? It doesn’t even involve you and if two people with too much time on their hands weren’t threatened by this site you’d never even know about it. Now, they talk about love at their site. One of them even talks about how “love covers a multitude of sins” for a reason why a guy can only write a story about his life that scrubs what he felt was bad stuff. What about love covering this sin? What purpose did they serve? Then you come here, crawl up on your self-righteous corner and make a drive by comment? Don’t worry about defending Ingrid, I’m coming for you on this comment. It was wrong. It was sinful and it did not honor God.

98   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:32 am

Heya Tim,

I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion, but as a former pottymouth saved by grace, it does appear to some that the new generation of pastors are very loose with their tongues and use vulgar or crass language to express themselves (even some from the pulpit…ugh!) So I just encourage you in love and in grace as one who also struggles and falls in that area to watch out…”let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth….” or on the bloggosphere for that matter.

99   Neil    
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:44 am

SJ wrote:

…I’m asking, is there a difference in being sorry for being caught, and being convicted? Sorry doesn’t cut it my friend when more than a year goes by…

As I understand the time-line, the whole thing came down over one and one-half years ago, but the “whole thing” included his being called on it which precipitated his repentance. So, your comment about being sorry when more than a year went by ignores the setting, the facts.

Correct me if I’m wrong Tim, but as I understand it you called out immediately and repented just as quick – is that correct?

100   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:55 am

Neil,
That’s pretty much it.

Pastorboy,
Your gentle correction is far more Godly than the condemnation of the watchkitties. And far more effective.

101   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:18 am

*heaves a rock*

“I’m not letting Tim get off that easy! Quick everyone stones! Grab your stones”

102   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Okay, I’ll try and be brief. But probably won’t make it.

I think one of the biggest weaknesses of blogs like this and mine as well, is that they often can descend into arguments over semantics. Like Neil’s quote above, although it is not there already, if both of us are not careful, it will wind up trying to define what “is” means. Something I don’t think any of us would be edified by continuing. Right? I would explain this to you Neil:
Why I was asking Tim that question is well, kinda like when we were younger.

Say a kid in school posted some graffiti on the wall and also that it was offensive–even to just a small crowd of people. He got caught by the principle and apologized to him. He even apologized to the one(s) that were offended. Good. That is a right thing to do. I never said it wasn’t. Now, that paint was in a conspicuous place. The people it offended walked by it. People who didn’t know the kid apologized walk by it. It remains an offense to all those who still find it on their way to the bus stop–even if it is on a little used short cut. Now a good principle would give that kid a wire brush and have him go to work. But say the young gent had the ability, wherewithall, but not the motivation to remove it himself. If he hated what he had done, would it not offend him to know that while he did sincerely apologize and that the directly offended parties were aware of that, that it was still an embarrassment even only to himself? If he is still walking by it a year and a half later, and showed no intention of removing it, and in fact would get angry if it got brought up, would it not be at least a little reasonable to ask(not accuse) where his heart is?

I asked that question because I do not understand why something as offensive, which Tim commendably admitted it was, as that would not be a thorn in the side of a repentant heart.

It is almost a given in groups like this one, that when someone even simply asks when they seem to see a discrepancy, that many of you will come back not with “yeah, I probably should’ve removed it a long time ago, thanks for asking” but “oh, so now you’re able to judge my heart?”

I don’t appreciate perhaps the fact that this was “dug up” after so long and not inquired about privately first. I think that should’ve been handled differently and possibly avoided this whole thing.

The last thing I want to do is say “Jesus forgives you, but I don’t”. I saw what looked like a discrepancy, I asked, and was in turn accused of being self righteous.

My initial observation was that I did not see something as serious as calling out hypocrisy, uncharitable behavior, and so on in Ingrid being treated with the weight it would deserve. You say a sister is committing a pretty serious offense herself and then proceed to a jovial conversation about PS2 and GH2.

Now, I’m pretty sure this part will get ignored because it was in the last comment, but I am sorry for the drive-by. I do find it interesting that “sorry” was good enough for Tim, but since I am apparently an ODM, mine doesn’t count. I am truly sorry, I do not like it when others do that and I don’t allow it on my blog, but my five year old niece was visiting and I was unable to return.

In Christ

103   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:09 pm

And pastorboy,

Well done. You said very well what I appear to have bungled. God bless.

104   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm

SJ,
Comment threads move. Often away from serious stuff to lighthearted stuff.
Secondly, I missed your first apology. So now, it’s my turn. I’m sorry please forgive me. If I had seen it, I wouldn’t have commented. Maybe, Ken is right…maybe I can’t read.

105   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Joe,

No harm done. I know some really good teachers, maybe there is help.

And I have been guilty of being informal on a serious comment thread myself. I was called on it too and ceased. The problem is, should it really occur? That was and is my problem. I’m not saying we have to be dried up tack in the shed, there certainly is room for “lighthearted” comments. That is, should what was addressed in the post be turned into idle joking? I think not. That is what I was pointing out. I saw a rather ADD attention span on something that should have been a serious subject–hence the boy reference.

Sorry too for perhaps communicating in way that was itself offensive. It may have been better to ignore it altogether, as I often do when I visit.

Bye for now,

106   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Say a kid in school posted some graffiti on the wall and also that it was offensive–even to just a small crowd of people. He got caught by the principle and apologized to him. He even apologized to the one(s) that were offended. Good. That is a right thing to do. I never said it wasn’t. Now, that paint was in a conspicuous place

.

Not actually…Someone walked through every classroom that Tim ever was in, found something offensive than ran and told her friend, who told all of her friends, and then directed them to go look at it.

My initial observation was that I did not see something as serious as calling out hypocrisy, uncharitable behavior, and so on in Ingrid being treated with the weight it would deserve. You say a sister is committing a pretty serious offense herself and then proceed to a jovial conversation about PS2 and GH2.

Uh… actually Time called her a hypocrite in the piece but in a reference to another situation. Other than that you were the only other person to throw out the word hypocrite.

You also said:

I think one of the biggest weaknesses of blogs like this and mine as well, is that they often can descend into arguments over semantics. Like Neil’s quote above, although it is not there already, if both of us are not careful, it will wind up trying to define what “is” means.

Something I don’t think any of us would be edified by continuing. Right?

Then why did you post:

Little boys. I’m afraid that is all I see here.

And I really hope I don’t have to explain this. Just read down trough this meta. It sounds like a junior high recess.

So we were wrong to bring it up but since we brought it up it shouldn’t be continued and when it starts to die down you step in with the above comment. huh?????

And not that I’m keeping score but this post was written after Ingrid did the wrong thing. Which you admit was wrong here:

I don’t appreciate perhaps the fact that this was “dug up” after so long and not inquired about privately first. I think that should’ve been handled differently and possibly avoided this whole thing.

You really should point that out to Ingrid.

Before you type anything:
You said:

Now, I’m pretty sure this part will get ignored because it was in the last comment, but I am sorry for the drive-by. I do find it interesting that “sorry” was good enough for Tim, but since I am apparently an ODM, mine doesn’t count.

You must have missed this:

Thanks for the clarication and the apology. YOUR FORGIVEN!
BTW so was/is Tim!

If he is still walking by it a year and a half later, and showed no intention of removing it, and in fact would get angry if it got brought up, would it not be at least a little reasonable to ask(not accuse) where his heart is?

Uh actually the phrase used was “Enemy of Jesus”. That blew right past asking and accusing and went straight to judgement.

The last thing I want to do is say “Jesus forgives you, but I don’t”. I saw what looked like a discrepancy, I asked, and was in turn accused of being self righteous.

I won’t even attempt to deal with this mish-mash of logic.

Okay I’m tired of cutting and pasting you’re comment. Let me finish by saying that I appreciate your comments I only wish that you by the standard in which you measure…you know how it goes.

Peace and blessings

107   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:24 pm

There should be the word “Furthermore” between the “apology” and the “accusation.

108   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm

SJ,
That’s kind of subjective, I would think. By that, I mean your entire coment

109   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Oh, and iggy,

You said,

I do not think that this would qualify you as an enemy of Jesus… using bad judgment maybe, but not an enemy of Jesus… I see no where in that quote an attack against the person of Jesus.

I’m not going to bring back up whether Tim is/was/needs to be forgiven. Or even that he hasn’t/has repented. But that statement is bald faced Scriptural omition. I know what you were getting at, but that was very careless thing to say. ANY sin, no matter what earthly person it was against is against the person of Christ. Does/has he forgive, of course. But sin, and unrepentant sin even more so, IS an offense and IS an enemy of Christ. Is Tim an enemy of Christ? That may be a bit too far to prove. And I understand an attempt to address that. But I have serious issues when something like “the sin was against Bob Smith, not the person of Jesus”. Impossible.

I know that that you know this. I simply pointing out a careless statement.

110   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm

So using that logical:

When the ODM’s back-bite, lie, gossip, and malign they are actually an enemy of jesus?

uh…maybe we do agree S.J.

111   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:48 pm

ANY sin, no matter what earthly person it was against is against the person of Christ.

You should go post that on Ingrid and Ken’s site…oh wait you can do that here but not there!

112   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:49 pm

I think, perhaps, SJ and Chris are seeing the flipside of the same coin. SJ sees the weight of sin, which is very real and very, well, damning. Chris sees the weight of the gospel, which is very real and very, well, anti-damning. These views don’t become conflicted until a Christian sins. And then its not really a matter of theology, but of practice.

113   Neil    
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:11 pm

SJ,

Thanks for the clarification. I took you original comment about 1.5 years to imply that Tim got caught and repented 1.5 years later. If that’s not what you meant – my bad.

Neil

114   Neil    
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm

As repugnant as the original comment was, the “research” that is took to find it reminds me of the Clinton’s digging up a paper Obama wrote in elementary school. The time frame is different, maybe significantly, but the parallel remains.

Neil

115   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:19 pm

I think, perhaps, SJ and Chris are seeing the flipside of the same coin. SJ sees the weight of sin, which is very real and very, well, damning. Chris sees the weight of the gospel, which is very real and very, well, anti-damning. These views don’t become conflicted until a Christian sins. And then its not really a matter of theology, but of practice.

As you know; that is a very large coin!

116   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:11 pm

SJ,

I’m not going to bring back up whether Tim is/was/needs to be forgiven. Or even that he hasn’t/has repented. But that statement is bald faced Scriptural omition. I know what you were getting at, but that was very careless thing to say. ANY sin, no matter what earthly person it was against is against the person of Christ. Does/has he forgive, of course. But sin, and unrepentant sin even more so, IS an offense and IS an enemy of Christ. Is Tim an enemy of Christ? That may be a bit too far to prove. And I understand an attempt to address that. But I have serious issues when something like “the sin was against Bob Smith, not the person of Jesus”. Impossible.

I know that that you know this. I simply pointing out a careless statement.

I am speaking in the context of Tim and his “sin” so you are grossly taking me out of context… and I find that totally offensive and deceptive and slanderous.

But, I suppose you know all that is also a sin so I will not go on, but I do expect from you an apology for you sin and condoning of sin from Ingrid and such who also as you have done.

As far as omission of Scripture, you seem to omit grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, and many other things… so repent!

iggy

117   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:47 am

Iggy,

I am speaking in the context of Tim and his “sin”

By your sarcasm, one can only infer that you do not believe that,

whether repented of or not(which it probably has been), Tim did not actually sin. If this is the case, which I hope it is not, you REALLY need to look up the definition again. If this is not what you meant, then it was another careless statement.

so you are grossly taking me out of context…

So your own words regarding the infamous quote from Tim saying:

I see no where in that quote an attack against the person of Jesus.

were not saying what they indeed did say. This is what was addressed by me, acknowleding that I am aware that you likely did not really believe(hopefully, but now I’m beginning to wonder) that a sin could be against a man and not also against the person of Jesus. This idea is not in accordance with Scripture, so that it why I called it careless and still do. That’s all.

and I find that totally offensive and deceptive and slanderous.

If you had actually addressed the same issue I did, you might have been unblinded to see that I had an issue with the wisdom of your wording and pointed it out. Nothing more. I was not being slanderous, as I gave you credit for probably not meaning what was literally implied (I hope). Apparently, you missed the memo that said:

I know what you were getting at,…

And:

Is Tim an enemy of Christ? That may be a bit too far to prove. And I understand an attempt to address that.

And:

I know that that you know this. I simply pointing out a careless statement.

Maybe those were all too hard to see and interpret. So, I’ll try and be plainer; I know(hope) that you did not mean anything extrabiblical or antibiblical in your comment, but at face value, which many that come here only see, it says that a sin can be against a man, but may not be against Jesus if Jesus is not specifically named. That is not Scriptural, and therefore, to say it in such a manner as you did is careless; likely to be overlooked yes, but still careless. That is all I was addressing. And to say I have a serious issue with it is not deceptive and slanderous.

What would have been would be if I outright said that you believed that and went and told all my friends…sound familiar? I was trying to point something out in person (as much as possible) rather than doing what Ingrid apparently did. How is this slanderous? I can’t call out something respectfully that seems careless or out of line? What standard did you use for righteously accusing me as you said I do?

But, I suppose you know all that is also a sin so I will not go on, but I do expect from you an apology for you sin

What? 1) I noticed something that didn’t match Scripture–I brought it to your attention. I was firm, true. But I was not angry, and I gave ample opportunity to give the benefit of the doubt. If I had really thought at the time that you were actually believing an apostate view and projecting it, the tone would have been proportionately more strong. To say something is careless, or that I have serious issues is not slanderous or deceptive. It is honest and I was sure to be firm in love, or else, like I said, I could have digressed into outright accusation of apostasy or at least “bad doctrine”.
2) I apologized for my drive by yesterday,

I am truly sorry, I do not like it when others do that and I don’t allow it on my blog

and:

Sorry too for perhaps communicating in way that was itself offensive.

So if you’re referring to those matters, they are over for me and I think that the offended parties(minus you)would concur that that issue is over. I was a poor witness to my God, and it grieves me to know that. If you are referring to the quote in question now, huh?

You say also:

and condoning of sin from Ingrid and such who also as you have done.

When?

Is Tim an enemy of Christ? That may be a bit too far to prove. And I understand an attempt to address that

I don’t appreciate perhaps the fact that this was “dug up” after so long and not inquired about privately first. I think that should’ve been handled differently and possibly avoided this whole thing.

My initial observation was that I did not see something as serious as calling out hypocrisy, uncharitable behavior, and so on in Ingrid being treated with the weight it would deserve.

Say Ingrid is a hypocrite. Say whatever you like, she is capable of defending herself on this one. I need not and did not.

In other words, I NEVER condoned her post, her actions surrounding it, or anything of that nature. In fact I did the opposite. I am not the one who owes an apology. You are.

Finally, you said:

As far as omission of Scripture, you seem to omit grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, and many other things

I had no grace in my very first comment. That is why I needed to and did repent, multiple times. As for omitting it, you should know me better than that. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, knowing that there is much about you I do not know. So, instead of accusing, I brought it before, being plain with why what you said could cause problems. That is not love? Love cannot also correct? I think I have heard language to that effect here, maybe this is “different”. It was the mercy of God that gave me repentance for what I had done wrong, and mercy still to grant the giving of forgiveness by men like Joe. It was also mercy at a personal level to refrain from outright accusation before substantiating just exactly where you were coming from. I knew the context, and gave you credit for it. Is that not God’s mercy–to not jump to conclusions and thus show partiality?

I repented for what I did wrong. None of what you addressed about me in that comment was wrong Iggy, and you know that. You have had a serious beef with me today. It has been relentless. At least the rest of these guys gave concession to my repentance. If I could delete my original comment I would.

I said you made a careless statement that could easily be taken as something very non-biblical. And I made very clear that I did not actually accuse you of believing said statement as possibly defined. In response, you called me deceptive, slanderous, sinful, ungracious, offensive, unrepentant, un-loving, unforgiving, and so forth.

This is so lopsided in accusations, it is not even funny. I have had disagreement with you before, but I recalled from past experiences with you that I didn’t think you actually would mean something as “out of context” as the whole “sin against Jesus” issue, so I brought it up in the context that it could be taken out of context.To do that, I had to put it into CORRECT context.

How quickly you forgot the staunch opposition I made HERE and elsewhere of the truly unChristlike words of Chris P some weeks ago.

Iggy, you were simply out of line with that last comment. I pray God gives the grace to see it.

118   S.J. Walker    http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:56 am

And sorry for the terrible formating. This connection went bust the first time tried to post, so I copied and pasted, and I think that is where the block quotes went nuts. Country boy strikes again.

119   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:40 am

SJ,

By my sarcasm? there was no sarcasm… Tim sinned and admitted it and repented and was forgiven by the offended parties… but you and Ingrid seem to think you rank higher than God on the ability to see one’s sin… so you seem to be the all knowing one… (now that was sarcasm! LOL!)

I see you inability to see sin as sin and sin as forgiven as very telling of the bondage of legalism you are under… and the judgmentalism it creates in you…

Be free for the Truth will set you free… and he who has the Son in free indeed…

I am free… and call you to freedom in Christ and out of the Galatianism you practice in place of true faith in Christ Jesus.

Iggy

120   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:43 am

SJ,

Repent of your false accusations against me…. and go and sin no more…

BTW Chris P. rarely exhibits Christ like character here… so defending him seems rather antiChrist to me…

iggy

121   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 5:05 am

SJ,

I had a really hard time trying to figure out what you were doing with your comment above… I read it and thought it was saying one thing then re-read it and now think it another… but really have no clue.

If you have apologized in there somewhere, thank you… accepted and water under the bridge.

I was not sure if you were defending Chris P or if you had issue with him in the past also.

Again, I am sorry if I was way out of line, yet I did take your other post as taking my words totally out of context and no, I was not using sarcasm… as I stated, no one here was sweeping any “sin” under the carpet… except those who seem to think Ingrid was right in spreading slander and gossip to expose Tim of his sin of over 1 1/2 ago… to me those who back Ken and Ingrid are condoning their ongoing sin and seem to also be encouraging them in it!

Such as this one under the comments in “older than you thought”

Comment from Newcenturion
Time: January 1, 2008, 8:27 am

The theological insights I read on this forum are, dare I say, amazing. A new original sin wow

Chris P
As always I find yours to be the voice of reason on this forum keep up the good work brother.

Knowing that Chris P has openly stated he holds many here in contempt… and seeing that hating one’s brothers and sisters in Christ is a sin and shows one does not have the Truth dwell in them… I see that this is more insidious than most anything I have read from Ken or Ingrid…

To me, Ken is like a broken clock that is right twice a day, and Ingrid is like that over-sized clock that is around the neck of Flavor Flav which seems to serve no real purpose other than to draw attention them itself and its lunacy.

I have also read some of your comments in other places which indicated you agreed with some that also support Ingrid and Ken…

With that I confess I may have judged you myself as “one of them”… if you are not, then again, I apologize.

iggy

122   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:31 am

This is idiotic.

Sin is sin, it is against God, the repentance is to be between man and God, and the person offended.

If Tim says he repented, he repented, we need to let it go.

123   S.J. Walker    
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:50 am

Iggy,

We need to drop this like pastorboy said. I will say that my issue with Tim was over early yesterday. I was not addressing what he did in my last comment, I was addressing the complete misrepresentation of me that you were spouting.

I’m sorry if my last comment was long and hard to sift. That’s what I get for trying to do that at midnight.

So, in case there is any confusion.

1) I agree IN GENERAL, doctrinally, with Ken and Ingrid.
2) I do NOT agree, doctrinally, with most of you. I hope that is clear. That should also be plain. That doesn’t make me slanderous or in cahoots with those who are/are accused of being.
3) I do NOT generally agree with the methods they employ. I would say that often, perhaps not in this case though, you all have VERY thin skin. Iggy, you accused me of slander when I said you could have worded your statement better. sheeesh.
4) What part of

“How quickly you forgot the staunch opposition I made HERE and elsewhere of the truly unChristlike words of Chris P some weeks ago.”

don’t you understand? And you thought somehow that I at least MIGHT have been defending Chris P.? My goodness. I probably agree with him essentially. But even when he speaks truth, he does not do so in love. That is my main problem with him. Take the whole church shooting for example: deplorable.
5) Despite my hesitance to condone some of what Ken says, he is a dear friend and I love him as a brother. The same goes for my sister Ingrid.

Apart from the occasional “bygones are bygones–for today” posts, I see know indication of you fellows ever showing anything but contempt and mockery toward them. It has also been turned toward me or anyone who is guilty by association. Behold the power of “love”. So what if you say they mock you unjustly. Show them something DIFFERENT then.

As for this kind of thing:

I see you inability to see sin as sin and sin as forgiven as very telling of the bondage of legalism you are under… and the judgmentalism it creates in you…

That is false. Period. Calm down and read what I actually said. Go read what I write myself. If you continue to call me a legalist, or some uncaring fundy, or whatever, you would be continuing in what would then be a lie, not just just a misunderstanding.

May God give Grace and Wisdom to you Iggy, you have my prayers.

This has gone on ridiculously long. Thanks pastorboy for the reminder. God bless you sir

124   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:02 am

SJ, some day you and I will have to sit down with an ice cold coke and talk ranching. I believe we could have fun with that.

125   S.J. Walker    
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 am

Joe,

(Chuckle) I sure hope so. Thanks for changing the subject.

126   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:06 am

I didn’t mean to offend by changing the subject, I just meander over to your blog now and again and I saw that you used to ride. I did that for a little while. I was also a clown for a little while (no comments from the Peanut Gallery).

127   S.J. Walker    
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am

Oh no offense Joe. At least for that. :) It needed changed. Did you do the clown thing, or the “bullfighter” thing? Both are commendable in a rodeo context.

128   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:16 am

I did both. It started as a lark. I worked at a ranch for kids and they needed a clown for entertainment. Later in life, I needed some money and there was a rodeo just outside of the town where I lived that needed help so…
I hadn’t rode in years, until fall of ‘07. I actually fell going down a hill. It was like I just lost it. It was amazing. I was scared, and I couldn’t control it. I’ve tried to decide if it was because I had sandals on or I just lost all sense of balance. I still don’t know. I’ll have to get back on next chance I get.

129   S.J. Walker    
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 am

I suggest reading “The Man From Snowy River” by Banjo Patterson. Somebody rode down a hill in that and ended being pretty famous. The sandals probably had alot to do with it. How fast you were going of course would have played a role.

I also used to compete in rifle marksmanship. One time when I was younger I was at the 4-H County Fair Shoot(trying to get to state). In this case, we fired 10 rounds in four different target positions. First prone, then standing, then kneeling, then sitting. On shot 49, with only it and one other to go, my gun exploded. It was borrowed, but was a high grade target rifle and I was using expensive match ammo. It was the middle of June in the desert outside Grand Junction. The temperature in the shade was 100 degrees. The firing line was not in the shade. Someone had a rifle sitting idle in the sun and put a thermometer in the barrel–150 degree +/-. Now, add in the fatct that I had fired over 50 rounds with my site in time earlier, I was in the sun, and I typically moved fast. We loaded and fired single shot. But I would usually crank about 3-4 shots ahead of everyone else. I just did better when I didn’t take too much time. So this rifle had been firing about 1-2 shots a minute or less. it was HOT. On shot 49, I loaded the cartridge, pulled the rifle butt up to my shoulder and began to line up the sites and BANG! The cartridge exploded, blowing the magazine out the bottom, blasting the locked bolt open, and covering my face with GSR (gun shot residue). It sounded like a much larger caliber rifle going off. The line judges immediately ran over and checked me out and the rifle and we could tell no physical harm was done. One of them glassed down range and noticed that the round had actually hit on target, it wasn’t a 10, but points are points. I had my older lever action model there from the previous hunting category competition. Since it was not considered unfair advantage to use it in target style shooting, they allowed me, if I wanted to, to use it for shot 50. I did and it was a perfect bull’s eye. It was good enough for the win and I went on to place pretty high at State.

Storel of the mory: Get back on, you might just nail it.

130   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:09 pm

LOL. I’ve read that book and saw the movie

131   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:56 pm

SJ,

I think if you read ALL my comments you might have gotten a better picture, but since I read ALL yours and there was some accusations I was offended… in that second to the last comment I think it was very disconnected and really made no sense…

Now,

You state ”

1) I agree IN GENERAL, doctrinally, with Ken and Ingrid.
2) I do NOT agree, doctrinally, with most of you. I hope that is clear. That should also be plain. That doesn’t make me slanderous or in cahoots with those who are/are accused of being.
3) I do NOT generally agree with the methods they employ. I would say that often, perhaps not in this case though, you all have VERY thin skin. Iggy, you accused me of slander when I said you could have worded your statement better. sheeesh.

1. In general I agree doctrinally with them also… yet I am still attacked by them.

2. How do you really know what most of us really believe. You are new here and so far, and especially with me you have made a lot of off the wall assumptions.

3. I am glad to here you do not agree with the methods… that is great and as it should be as being followers of Christ.

yet, as far as me having thin skin… sir I ahve been called about everything from “not saved” to a “pedophile” by these people as well as had my friends and church slandered by them… thin skinned I am not. I was upset as you seem and still are making assumption about me (and yes I was and am guilty of that also) yet do not even know me.

Now, I am also dropping all this as it is beyond boring and not productive at all… in fact in your last post I still may be reading into it sarcasm and things and I wish not to do that…

be blessed,
iggy

132   merry    
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm

I think the only person who ever had the right to call anyone a hypocrite was Jesus Christ, who actually knew the hearts and minds of the people He was calling hypocrites. (He actually borrowed the term from the Greeks; Hypocrites were actually actors.)

Just saying.

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  1. Update on “Let the One without Sin…” « Life Under the Blue Sky: The View From Below    Dec 31 2007 / 5pm:

    [...] Something I did not do in my original post was give a fair amount of space to Tim Reed. I regret that, as there are always at least two sides to every story. This brief update is merely so that you can read a little more on this story from his point of view. A healthy conversation has been taking place at CRN.info & Analysis today. I encourage you to investigate it on your own. [...]