The “I Know You Are, But What am I?” Defense
It seems it has become more en vogue these days for several of the ODM’s to accuse this site of being just as judgmental and harsh as other places on the internet. There are few things I would say right away to that. First, all of the writers here have been open to correction, and we have apologized if we’ve stepped over a line. Second, a lot of what gets posted here is meant to be a defense from these very ODMs attacks. It is always surprising to me that often people who spend so much time attacking others act surprised when they encounter some form of defense. Do they really think everyone should just roll over for them?
Jim from Old Truth actually quotes a response I made on Joe Martino’s blog a few weeks ago where I said this:
This is always the defense of the Pharisee. They feel fine calling out other’s sins, but try to insulate themselves from others doing it to them. Jesus had no problem calling these type of people out.
Now, really, I feel honored, but I wanted to elaborate on that comment. I think sometimes Christians hear a message that sounds somewhat contradictory. We are told to remove the log from our eye before worrying about the speck in someone else’s eye. But we are also called to have some level of discernment. How does one negotiate this minefield?
One book that helped me clarify my thoughts on these subjects was Greg Boyd’s Repenting of Religion. In it Boyd starts from the very beginning explaining how humanity’s original sin was an effort to have the ability to discern between right and wrong. By eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil we set ourselves to make judgments that only God has the right to make. Eating from this tree gives us a false sense of self-worth, and humans love to do it today.
Obviously, though, it seems there are some situations where we have to have discernment, Boyd says. We need to know when something is particularly harmful. This is very important when dealing with people in the Church. The importance, though, is not in keeping sinful people away from Church, it is in protecting the Church from the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. This is deadly. It’s why Jesus confronted Pharisees so strongly.
The following is an excerpt from Chapter 11, entitled Confronting Pharisees.
First, it is important for us to notice that religious sin is the only sin Jesus publicly confronted. The religious variety of the forbidden fruit is the most addictive and deceptive variety. Instead of acknowledging that the knowledge of good and evil is prohibited, religious idolatry embraces the knowledge of good and evil as divinely sanctioned and mandated. It gives the illusion of being on God’s side even while it destroys life and hardens people in direct opposition to God.
Religious sin is the most destructive kind of sickness, for it masquerades as and feeds off the illusion of health. Far from being open to a cure, this kind of sickness thrives on the illusion that it is the epitome of health. By its very nature it resists soft correction. Indeed, because it gets life from the rightness of its beliefs and behavior rather than from love, the religious version of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil tends to construe all compassion, accomodation, and unconditional acceptance as compromise. People afflicted with religious sin thus tend to disdain compassionate love, even if it is extended toward them. Hence, Jesus’ approach to leaders who fed off this illusion could not be to gently offer them a cure. Rather, for their sake and the sake of those who blindly followed them, he had to publicly expose their sickness.
What does this mean for the church? We have seen that the church is called to be the corporate body of Christ that unconditionally loves and embraces all people, regardless of their sin, and invites them into its own celebration of the cessation of the ban. The only exception to this otherwise unconditional embrace is the sin Jesus confronted in the religious leadership of his day. While all sin is equal in the sense that it separates us from God, sins differ in terms of their impact on people and thus differ in how they need to be dealt with. Religious sin is unique in that it is the only sin that by its very nature resists the cure of God’s unconditional love and embrace.
Boyd goes on to explain ways of dealing with modern-day Pharisees, but the point is that a religious spirit can be deadly in a church. Jesus at one point accused the Pharisees of blocking people from entering the Kingdom. He called Pharisees out in His day, and I believe we need to be wary of them in our day.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:16 am
It cracks me up. This site is a waste of good bandwith to them but they sure do spend a lot of time tracking us. Cracks me up. Really. I can’t say that enough.
December 29th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Interesting.
I need to get that book. Now I’m curious.
December 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Ken really doesn’t get it, does he? In his latest post (Editor), he shows either his willing ignorance, or his blind inability to comprehend. There IS a difference between attacking Christians, and protecting them. CRN/OT/SoL/etc. are attacking Christians, and CRN.info is protecting the Christians who are attacked.
If it stings to be corrected in your hyperbolic criticisms, then so be it.
In all honesty, I wouldn’t care all that much if CRN.info WAS exactly like the others. I think that “attitudes” are hard to correct most of the time. It’s best to just correct the inaccuracies and lies in the ODM posts, and use the exact same attitude as the ODM. It gives them a taste of their own medicine, without all the lies and outright sins.
The only problem is, the attitudes of the ODMs are extremely repulsive to the lost, so it may not be best to mimic them in that respect.
Not that it matters … what Ken entirely misses is that the difference between the ODMs and sites like this lie not only in the intentions, but also in the attitude and veracity. The ODMs have an attitude of condemnation toward everyone it seems (except carbon copies of themselves), and they lie like there’s no tomorrow.
This site does neither, and thank God for that!!!
Ken, you just don’t get it, but keep trying!
December 29th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
What cracks me up is the continual schtick “the Lord has raised up ministries (sic) like…”
The “editor” basically violates the Third Commandment every time he/she/it does this. Judging from the fruit of CR?N, in general, the only “lord” I would credit with raising it up is the same one that seeks to destroy and divide the church…
December 29th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
The main differences between CRN.info and C(?)N
1. We discuss and disagree here, yet seem to still respect those who differ from us. There is no hate for the ODM’s only concern that they are harming there brothers and sisters in Christ.
2. We discuss here.
iggy
December 29th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
” the only “lord†I would credit with raising it up is the same one that seeks to destroy and divide the church… ”
Wow, a little loose don’t you think? They may operate in the flesh sometimes, but are you saying that Satan raised them up? That surely is out of bounds.
December 29th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
OK… you’re right Rick.
I guess my point is that crediting our own works as the Lord’s will is consistently more likely to be the opposite, regardless of who is doing the crediting.
Giving the Lord credit for his blessing is one thing, but giving our own work His stamp of approval is out of bounds…
December 29th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Rick,
Chris L is using the same criteria of the ODM’s… you left off, “Judging from the fruit of CR?N, in general,” from your quote which is not the same as saying “Satan has raised them up”… Jim Bublitz uses the “judge their fruit” as well as most of the ODM’s… and in that abuse the teaching of “fruit judging” which is more about looking at our own stinking fruit to realize we need to bear God’s fruit instead, by using it to attack and destroy others ministries by their own standards of righteousness.
iggy
December 29th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Didn’t mean to speak for you Chris, it was just how I read you…
iggy
December 29th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
I agree that they sometimes operate with a machette without any salve. If you read Ingrid’s post some months ago she makes reference to one ODM who broke fellowship with her and Ken, one that e-mailed me with encouragement.
I agree that Ken’s “the Lord has seen fit” phrases (and others) are self serving. Jusyt like Ingrid came yesterday with the “blood of Jesus” phrase. As you noted, we should be careful how we use the Lord’s name, especially when we represent Him as being personally on our side.
Remember Joshua (?) saw the shining Lord and asked “Are you on our side?” and the answer was that Christ is on His own side!
December 29th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
I had to leave right after I wrote this article, so I just saw the “editor’s” response. I find it quite ironic, really.
One thing Boyd touches on in the book is how Pharisees try to define the church by the perimiter rather than the center. If we are all focused on the center, which should be loving Christ and one another, the perimiter - who’s in and who’s out - will take care of itself. It actually seems that a big part of Jesus’ ministry was telling the Pharisees that the people they thought were out were now in and vice versa.
Also, the whole idea that God is raising up discernment ministries is so laughable to me. I guess the only qualification for the position of “watchman” is a computer with an internet connection.
I’ve been around churches my whole life. The things that destroy churches are not false teaching. Yes, occasionally pastors have to deal with things, but they are generally capable of doing that pretty well themselves. The things that destroy churches are modern-day Pharisees.
It’s the people who get upset that church doesn’t use the organ anymore, or that the pastor doesn’t wear a tie on Sunday night who destroy churches. They start rumors. They try to turn people against pastors. They don’t want “their” church to change. They would rather see it die than change and move forward. A religious spirit will kill a move of God faster than anything.
December 29th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
From the “Editor”
there is a growing number of online discernment ministries currently being raised up by the Lord Himself to earnestly contend for the genuine faith of Jesus Christ against continual attacks by new evangelicals and the Emergent Church
you are certainly right, Phil Miller, in saying that the only qualification for the position of online watchman is a computer with an internet connection. How can anyone think you can “discern” someone’s ministry simply by reading news reports and hearing rumours which is primarily what they do. That is the reason why the old Slice of Laodicea got punked a few times by April Fool’s day news reports and that is why some of them go back and change or take down posts without any apology or explanation.
See what happens when Mike Corley makes a trip to Seattle and sees Mars Hill Church for himself and finds that all those vicious rumours emailed to him by well meaning Christians were untrue? I hope he will speak or write to Ingrid and tell her to take down and apologize for using that kind of language for a mere once-a-year Church celebration.
“growing number of online-discernment-ministries”! who needs that kind of competition?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
The pot calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black that calls the pot black that calls the kettle black…
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Puritanical
Titillation
Will
Turn
Mediocre
Perhaps you missed that we’ve posted the key differences we’re looking for here, and that you’re barking up the wrong tree…
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
PTWTM,
Well, thanks for the brilliant insight. Did you even read the original article?
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Phil,
If you’re talking about the article that started this thread, I certainly did read it. All I did was make silliness out of this whole “Christological” tennis match between the postmodern Campbellites/whatever-denominational-persuasion-you-are versus what you call “ODMs”. Having said that, the score certainly isn’t Love-Love.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
And for a minute I thought he/she/ministry/ was giving us the key to the Acronym.
Pretending To Write Thy Mantra!
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Preaching
The
White
Trash
Ministries,
You crack me up.
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:25 pm
This is my final post here, since there is no way we’re going to be able to talk sense to one another.
Joe, nice try. Not only no cigar, you’re not even close.
Thus, since I won’t be back to poison myself with this postmodern antinomian Campbellitish mishmash, you will not truly know what PTWTM really stands for.
I have better uses for my time, and drive-byes aren’t one of them.
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Did you just “threaten” us that we’ll never know what
Putridly
Talking
While
Throwing up in
Mud
really means.
Do you really think we care?
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Joe that is harsh. It sounds like you kinda care you keep guessing:)