reviewing the review
I did not attend Rob Bell’s tour The Gods Aren’t Angry this last fall when it came through Los Angeles, so I have not voice to review his message. I refer you to Chris Lyons’ review here. However, there have been several articles written on the content of Bell’s tour. This one says a lot about the ODMs agenda with Bell. It starts out with this
With the ever growing following of Bell and others of his like in the Evangelical community it is becoming increasingly more important that we as Bible believing Christians are able to refute and give strong answers to the false teaching coming from their pulpits.
So, we know they are starting with an agenda before they even begin the review
When Rob Bell came to Dallas, TX for a stop on his “The Gods Are Not Angry†tour, we went primarily for the purpose of passing out Gospel tracts after the event let out.
So, they came to pass out tracts to a audience primarily consisting of believers that just heard a biblical message. Interesting use of resources and time. We continue…
Bell’s presentation was very basic in terms of the medium that he uses to communicate. The stage was empty with the exception of a large model of an altar. While Bell does not use a half hour diatribe with three points beginning with the letter “p†to communicate his position (something he criticizes in his presentation), the listener has to be prepared for a two hour diatribe with no point at all.
Ironically, one paragraph later, the author goes on to list five points that Bell made. No point at all? Five points? Which one was it?
The crowd that came out to hear Bell was as entertaining as Bell himself. Apparently the Emergent movement is not beyond that bane of popular American Christianity: idol worship. It was amazing to see so many of the men dressed like Bell, many even sporting the same dark rimmed glasses.
Is everyone dressing like Bell, or is everyone dressing in fashion, including Bell? This is what happens when people live outside the culture. They assume that everyone is idolizing Bell’s clothing and glasses. What they don’t realize is that a majority of Americans dress in that fashion today. Would you say that everyone in a cheap three-piece suit at Johnny Mac’s church is dressing like him and committing “idol worship� Probably not. So, the logic should not be used with Bell.
And, all this was written before the content of Bell’s talk was discussed. Once again, we see that preconceived notions and biases against style are more important than accurate reporting.
111 Comments(+Add)
No, the people in the “three-piece suit[s]” aren’t dressing like MacArthur. They’re all Penn & Teller wannabe’s.
Nathan,
The “review” was basically a classic straw-man set-up followed by a knock-down of the straw man (or, in this case, men).
I’d try to come up with a creative way of calling the review a liar, but that pretty much sums it up…
Did they just refer to Rob as a Horse? How dare they! We won’t stand for such blatant disregard for decency.
Haha, I thought the same thing. Especially given the whole “apparently Nathan wishes my demise because he’s talking about me playing with a loaded gun.”
In a world of straw men and horses mouths… I think the horses mouth might just win.
iggy
After reading the points Rob covered, I had maybe one exception and that of the development of the sacrificial system… but even that if taken that in the Garden God showed Adam and Eve the way of animal sacrifice, paganism rose fairly quickly and did pervert the original design and intent.
Other than that rather minor point, it seems that “we as Bible believing Christians are able to refute and give strong answers to the false teaching coming from their pulpits” who teach God is still angry with man. That is an affront to the message of reconciliation and God’s grace, let alone defecating on the blood of Jesus and His finished works.
iggy
Wow, Iggy…
I cannot tell you how funny that is… amazing!
= )
great point about the glasses and style of dress.
Let’s see we need to review the reviews?
The “agenda” of this blog and there is an agenda, is anti-odm. Therefore everything here and at verum serum or wherever must be taken with several pounds of salt.
What you are saying is that anyone who criticizes Bell’s “tour” is wrong and you are right. You are objective they are subjective. You are the tolerant christ-like ones and they are the venomous. You are biblical and they are not.
(What I have read from the anti-odm sites re: the letter to the Hebrews is sad.)
No vsisble agenda here.
Btw, better that they say “from the horse’s mouth” than the other end.
I would say that Bell wears goofy glasses and has the bad hair-do more in his attempt for relevancy. Tracts aren’t my m.o., but there is nothing wrong with handing out tracts if the real message hasn’t been preached.
At verum serum, they tout Bell’s methodology as an itinerant preacher. Spare me. Tours, ticket fees, PR men, etc. are not indicative of anything but entertainment.
Jesus could have sheared the sheep after anyone of his miracles were performed. Apparently His agenda was His Father’s agenda.
That is the criteria. Is Bell doing what the Father is telling Him? No one can assume the heart issues about anyone. That is God’s domain. These men can only be known by their fruit, which is what they speak.
Jesus is speaking about false prophets and miracle workers in Matthew 7, not neceesarily the fruit of the Spirit, just as James begins his portion on taming the tongue, with an admonition to those who would teach. So those who criticize “tone” and such are the true scarecrow builders.
Truth is the litmus test.
Therefore the real issue is not defending Bell, (let him defend himself), it’s the bringing down of the odm bloggers. You would, defend Bell, if he was the anti-christ, to serve your purposes.
is it disturbing to anyone else that there are people out there who want “gods” to be angry? does it bother anyone that there is such a rush to need God to be full of anger?
Gentlemen,
I am very sorry as this is WAY off topic, but I just noticed something the other day. This site is dedicated to “refuting”, “correcting”, or whatever you may call it anything and just about everything that Ingrid says, and then also Ken Silva.
This, you do with voracity often, by your admission, with similar tactics as you claim to deplore. I admired the post by Chris L about “dialing it back”. But the focus of this site is clearly to counter what you call the ODMs, especially Slice of Laodecea.
Okay, fine. It’s a free country. Then I noticed something. You have an icon directly above your “Friend of People” slogan. The icon says: SLICE SHUNNED.
Say what you wish about Ingrid. But is it not just a bit disingenuous to say that you are dedicated to refuting and contesting someone(s) when you also say you shun them?
In case there is any confusion:
click here
Just a thought
I believe that Bell doesn’t financially profit from his tours. Can someone confirm that the profits from Bell’s tours go to charity?
Wow Chris P,
You know Rob Bell well enough to know why he dresses the way he does?
Nice.
Now you’re a mind reader/heart reader.
And defend the anti-christ?
You’re a real piece of work for saying something like that.
And as far as agenda goes…yep. Nobody said there wasn’t an agenda. It’s a good agenda to stand up for the equally important truth that “it’s not Christ like to eat your own”.
So we’re not guilty of claiming “no-agenda” as you’re trying to make it out to be.
You work on your purpose driven vision statement yet for your church?
S.J. Walker -
Slice shunned us. Not them. Many of us were blocked from making comments at Slice. That’s why it says, “Slice Shunned.”
What I meant to say is that we didn’t shun Slice. or CRN.
Matt,
Thanks for the clarification. I suspected as much and am not surprised. I would still consider revising it (if that is the point you’re trying to make) that you fellas may want to make it clearer. To anyone who does not know, it appears as I suggested in the original comment.
That’s all. Go back to your conversations. Sorry for the interruption.
SW
The hair and the glasses are irrelevant. But to me so are Bell’s tours. I have read the reviews from supporters and detracters and I don’t see the point of these talks. The gods aren’t angry and all that, and the early man attempted to appease an angry god, who cares?
God is very angry and the only appeasement is His Son. He is coming with vengeance and believers need to know that about our unsaved neighbors. These type of classroom lectures stimulate the intellect but don’t seem to drive us into the prayer closet. I do not question Bell’s motives, I question what these talks produce in light of the tepid and hedonistic nature of the church today.
“You would, defend Bell, if he was the anti-christ, to serve your purposes.”
Chris P., that is over the top hyperbole and serves only as a zinger, not productive discourse.
Time to go back to school for some basic grammar, Cowboy.
The only people that would be unclear to is people who do not have a grasp of basic English.
Rick,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did God’s son not already come down to earth and appease that anger? Therefore, wouldn’t the correct wording be “God was very angry and the only appeasement was His Son?”
Rob profits nothing from the tour. As indicated on Wikipedia
Please read the above from Wikipedia
Chris, I feel the same way every time you comment.
iggy
Chris L
But if you are not in the Son the the wrath of God still abides on you. So God is still anger about sin! Always will be because He is holy and righteous. So will God is not angry with those in His Son because of His great love for His Son he is still angry with the unrepentant.
SJ – Ask and you shall receive – I have linked the “Slice Shunned” graphic to the post from two years back from whence it came.
Kyle,
The wrath of God is the consequences of justice, not anger. The sacrifice Jesus made has already been paid.
In reality, this comes back to the Calvin/Arminius argument – was Jesus’ sacrifice sufficient for all who would claim it (was Jesus victorious on the cross) or was Jesus’ sacrifice only sufficient for those “predestined” to accept it? If it was the former (or if it includes the former), then the price was already paid. If it is the latter, then it doesn’t really matter if you’re not “predestined”.
Was Jesus’ sacrifice for all of humanity who would accept it?
If so, then there is no need for them to “appease” God, because He’s already been appeased and provided a means of salvation.
Col.3:6 – For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Rom.1:18 – For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom.2:5 – But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom.5:9 – Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Eph.2:3 – Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph.5:6 – Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col.3:6 – For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
I Thess.1:10 – And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Chris – Jesus provided the atonement/covering to assuage the wrath of God, but all those without the blood on their doorpsots will be visited by God’s wrath as they were in Egypt. It is partial universalism to say the Jesus’ sacrifice appeased God’s anger to the unsaved. The New Testament is clear, God is angry and will one day visit this earth with His wrath.
Sorry, Rick, but once again, you are mixing “anger” (which must be “appeased”) and “wrath”, which is an outcome of justice.
Two different things.
That is a man made distinction and additionally, what difference does it make. Bell’s teaching certainly doesn’t seem to warn people about the wrath to come, he seems to concentrate on the fact, according to him, God is not angry.
So if He is not angry but filled with wrath what in the world is the difference. People still should have a fear of God’s judicial visit. Believe me, the overwhelming majority of believers and non-believers do not have a problem with God’s anger or wrath, they have portrayed Him in the most convenient terms already.
Baloney.
If so, then every word we speak is a “man-made distinction”. Fury is the outpouring of anger, and wrath is the outpouring of justice. Understanding the difference is important in understanding your response to God.
God is NOT angry – but He IS just. Grace is an escape from justice, not an escape from anger.
Bell makes it rather clear that Jesus’ sacrifice has to be accepted and that repentence is a response to this, not a religious ritual…
It seems to me that the response God desires from us is to follow Him out of love and appreciation rather than fear of hell…
God is angry with a lot of things and that lead to His wrath which needs to be satisifed. That is what Chrsit died, He satisified the wrath of God fully for all of those who beleive. Go look to the bible and then you will see that yes God’s wrath needs to be paid, either by Christ or by yourself. So you can spend an infinte time in hell paying for your sins against an infinte God. Our Christ can pay fully the infinte price because He Himself is God. Bottom line.
Chris L,
you said:
But I thought we cannot distinguish Godly issues under the basis of time?
I hate to ruin a good joke, but horses/animals don’t eat straw, they eat hey.
Neil,
Well well put. My thought exactly, but what do I know, I only grew on a ranch in the woods.
Thanks!
And I think it’s “hay”.
Figured I’d get that before anyone else jumped on you for it.
Okay, we’re back on focusing on the title of the tour again, and not on the content of the lecture.
Rob’s point, which does tie directly into the title, is the gods (lower-case and plural) are not angry. And the main point of the talk was that Jesus, ONCE FOR ALL, in the culmination of the ages, appeased the wrath of God.
Contrary to Jon Speed’s assessment, Rob did speak of embracing Jesus as the only way to experience that peace with God.
Shalom
SJ,
We happen to live in time, so tense matters when we’re writing. God lives apart from time, so when we use tense it is only from our frame of reference, not his. In this particular instance, though, we are dealing with an event pertaining to Jesus, who became human (thus constrained to time), so for us his sacrifice already happened.
In general, I try to use time distinctives where they are useful – realizing that they are OUR experience, not God’s view. However, when faced with giving convoluted explanations to scripture by saying “God didn’t mean that” or accepting that God’s experience is not ours – specifically in relationship to time – I will accept that God is right and that the seeming contradiction between ‘free will’ and ‘predestination’ is because of my limited perspective, rather than “God didn’t mean that, really”.
Neil,
First it is hay… not hey…
Also, animal do eat straw, the thing is and get this as it is more fitting if you get it… straw has not nutritional value. That is why it is used on the floor most often… but yes, a horse or cow will still eat it if it is offered and clean.
But, if you want a healthy horse, do not feed it straw men… feed i hay… for they will still starve if you say.. “hey” to them all day and they will have to eat your words if they were to feed on your, “hey”…
Boy, ain’t you glad we have that all cleared up?
LOL!
iggy
SJ,
They grew you on a ranch in the woods? I grew up on a ranch in the mountains.
Thank you for pulling it back, Nathanael.
Exactly.
I feel lik I’m back in ENGL Comp 100…
So, to update this… for Neil…
In a world of straw men and horses mouths… I think the horses mouth might just win, but will most likely be malnourished.
iggy
Interesting thoughts on “anger” vs “wrath.”
If God is indeed angry, then it follows that he takes “pleasure” in releasing that anger. Is “Hell” a pleasure, or any kind of “positive” for God?
Iggy,
Very good! And the fact that is has no nutritional value just adds to the metaphor – THANKS
Neil
Joe Martino,
Oh, you have no idea. Whoever said I “grew up”? I won’t take that from anyone.
Pistols at dawn.
definition of word in Romans 1:18 translated ‘wrath’.
http://classicbst.christianity.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3709&version=kjv
–Orge
anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
anger, wrath, indignation
anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
of punishments inflicted by magistrates–
At least by that definition, ‘anger’ seems to have quite a place in the concept of ‘wrath’, so I’m not sure the attempt to split the two is justified.
Yes hell is for the glory of God and therefore a postive! Along with His anger. But you can not just look at one accpet of His character, you can not dissect Him. His anger is holy, loving, righteous ect…!
Neil,
Read Revelation 19
S. J. Walker,
Who knew you had a sense of humor!?
LOL!
You know some of you need to stop being nice to each other… it messes with all my “ugly hate” I am known for…
Hey, Chris L, can we take this up a notch?
j/k
iggy
The new and improved other greet meat.
iggy,
What made you think I was joking?
Just goes to show gentlemen, don’t judge a book by the Calvinist.
I think what is missing is this… Jesus died for all men (and a few good women!) and in this if one rejects the only way to salvation all that is left is wrath.
It is called justice. Yet, the upside of Justice is reconciliation and eternal life.
One cannot have kindness and grace and mercy without wrath…
Now, even in “anger” God is just, but He is not angry now, but will be at judgement to those who rejected Jesus.
It seems pretty simple.
Rob Bell is talking of the reconciliation, and the way some of you talk seems that you are negating reconciliation…
BUT it is allotted a man to die, then the judgment… and all men will be judged, either with Jesus or without… either choosing Life in the Son, or the Second Death.
Be Blessed,
iggy
S J Walker…
.
Oh I am holding back… I just… I just… arrrgh… I just can’t… I must…
Oh dang… but, I do that every time I read the Scripture… (LOL!)
I tried to be nice, but it… it… hurt so bad…
iggy
that should have said the “other green meat”…
Iggy
I would say God is made now! Not with christians we only grieve Him and then He discplines us. But the world and is hostile towards Him and He still judges them according to the deeds through various means. Other nations, natrual disasters removing the restraint of His Spirit in the land so they are turned over to their own lust. So God is still anger now but not with His children!
And yes, contrary to popular belief, I do have a funny (looking) side.
Once you’re done with that. Read everything else. It should straighten all of you out and therefore give way to closing this site.
I’m not kidding about that.
Merry Christmas all
I mean mad not made
Kyle,
Brother, I think you and I need to both sign up for remedial English Comp. classes
Or for us:
bother, me thnik I and yourself shood sine up 4 re…re….re……”fixin” grammer skoolin
Kyle,
Well that thing about the angels saying “Peace on Earth an goodwill to men” must have been a load of crap. Who knew?
I believe in some sense, sin angers God, but I don’t believe it’s the sin of unbelievers as much as the sins of His children. Also, I don’t believe that natural disasters are a result of specific sin. A case could be made that they are a product of the Fall.
God’s wrath for mankind’s sin was dealt with on the cross. I believe that the wrath that Romans speak of isn’t God pouring out anger as it judgement. I see as a purifying thing, really. Like fire, it can be both beneficial or destructive.
Kyle,
2 Peter 3:8-10
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
God is holding back his wrath becuase of the Blood of Jesus, yet when the person is judged, and has rejected Jesus, he has no other sacrifice for his sins and suffers the wrath. But this is “the day of the Lord” and, thank God, is not now as God is holding back so none will perish…
Hope that helps.
iggy
So everything will be resotred even all people.
again what does Earth and men mean?
Is it the literal earth and just males.
Is it all peoples from all times. Remember people where already being punished by God.
Or is it all different people(men) throughout the world regardless of race or socioeconomic status.
Phil not trying to be mean but you sound a little like universalist. Could you explain more.
Proverbs
4The LORD is in his holy temple;
the LORD’s throne is in heaven;
his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.
5The LORD tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
6Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
Just look at the bible try searching anger, wrath, hate. Most of the time it is God who is doing it to wicked men! Not to his own sons and daughters. He loves us because Christ took all the anger, wrath and hate he had stored up against us. Yes it is a by product of the fall which is a judgement against sin! Good still controls everything in the weather and on this planet. There is a purpose to huricanes and the like. Why did so many die? Do not think of ourselves as more righteous than then. repent or you likewise will perish!
yes I agree that He is holding back the full fury of His wrath and storing it up until judgement day. This was a promise made to Noah and all of creation! Why is he long suffering. So that all that Christ died for might come to Him. He is waiting for His children to come. This is why we do not see the full fury of wrath. But God still judges both the saved and unsaved here and now. Not fully but on partially
Psalms 11
8The LORD judges the peoples;
judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness
and according to the integrity that is in me.
9Oh, let the evil of the wicked come to an end,
and may you establish the righteous—
you who test the minds and hearts,
O righteous God!
10My shield is with God,
who saves the upright in heart.
11God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.
Everyday! This shows how much God hates sin and the people who pratice it. Blessed be the Lord who sent His Son because of the great love He has for us through Him who did!
Kyle,
It seems like every time someone states something about being restored… someone always then states that person is talking about Universalism…
Why is this so hard to understand… it is all that is “in Christ” will be restored…
2 Cor 5: 17-19 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
It is in Christ God is reconciling all men… and we are to tell others of this reconciling that is in Christ. Not all are accepting the reconciliation and will be judged in the Day of the Lord… not before that… but then.
iggy
Kyle,
Well, I’m a Universalist in the sense that I believe grace is available to all. Whether or not they choose to live in that reality or not, is their choice to make. I guess I tend to believe close to what Dallas Willard said (I paraphrase) that maybe heaven and hell aren’t really that far apart. For some, being in the presence of God will be the fulfillment of their heart’s desire. For others it could be the worst punishment imaginable. Now, I’m not saying that’s my official doctrine or anything.
God controls the weather, but I don’t believe He micromanages it. Obviously, He has the power to do so, but He doesn’t all the time. Actually, some “natural disasters” are only disasters because people have gotten in the way of nature. The storms and such are actually vital to the existence of the ecosystem and the planet, even though they can be destructive.
Kyle, on another note. Why do you think God would create people predestined for eternal damnation? It seems to me that a damned individual would be better off not being created at all.
Kyle,
All was already “judged” at the Cross… and Judgment is carried out on the “day of the Lord” Now, the Spirit of God has been poured out on all men so they can turn to Him because of His Kindness… we are now in the age of Grace… Though I am not a dispensationalist… I see that all men are under grace until the Day of the Lord when they accept it or reject the Grace that is only in Jesus Christ.
iggy
To show the glory of His characted. He did work unrighteousness in us we all desrve hell. he choose to save some and give others justice. Everyone belives that, because not all are saved!
Im mean the “u’ in the sense of everyone being saved when God comes! Not in the sense that the gospel is unversial to all humas.
What about Anninas and lieing to the Holy Spirit and dropping dead on the spot. God still judges today. Not just with His full wrath. He does it so that men might turn and repent. Luke 13!
Speak for yourself here. Calvinists believe that. A classical Arminian would not, and there are still a lot of Arminians around.
This is my biggest beef with Calvinism. When you read the Bible through that lens, you will always make it say what you want it to say. I mean, I could waste all afternoon trying to explain this to you, but it’s fruitless. I pray you’ll take some time and read Scriptures apart from the Calvinistic system and get a glimpse of God’s heart. You’ll see that God’s desire and will for man has not been judgement. He longs to restore people back to the beings He created them to be.
I meant did NOT work unrighteousness in us, sorry.
Why did God create hell?
Why did he create angles?
Why did he create men if he knew that they would go to hell?
What is the purpose of all of creation?
I mean that you would say that God has a purpose behind the people that do not choose Him. It is not just willy nilly. The is a purpose in everything that happens. I know how we would differ. But most A will still say God is soverign and has a purpose for evertything that happens.
Because he knew we were all crooked at heart, since Adam made us no longer straight (in a non-sexual sense)?
But the angles where also crooked at heart. He made them for His glory. So it can shine forth in different ways. Angles long to paratake in Christ because they where judge without mercy or grace. So the fact that God would send His Son is also amazing to them. In fact they started to sing new songs about this glorious work!
If God didn’t create angles, our protractors would be absolutely useless!
I remember daydreaming in Math class, as well, but I never heard the angles sing! (apparently you missed my humor…)
God did not create Hell as Hell is the absence of God. How does One create his absence? Can you show me a verse that supports your claim of angels singing?
Anger and wrath are basically the same as is trnsgression and sin. No where in the Scriptures is there a delineation between the two, it is as I said a man made distinction without Scriptural basis.
God is angry at sin and the sinner, and that anger will one day be displayed. I personally believe Bell has unintantionally misrepresented that nature of God. I loved my father but I feared him as well, and so is the consistent teaching in the New Testament. The unbeliever has the condemnation and the wrath of God upon him. How silly to suggest that God’s wrath is upon him but God isn’t angry.
God is plenty angry about plenty!
Mike/Ann/Sabres/Bell -
1) Hell as the ‘absence of God’ – this is the view of tohu a vohu – formless and void – from Genesis and Genesis Rabba (a Genesis commentary started before Jesus’ time and completed a century or two after his death). This is that God created everything out of the void – chaos – and that as God creates, the void shrinks. Thus, at the completion of time when hell is thrown into the lake of fire, the last part of chaos is destroyed because it is not all God’s creation and everything apart from it has been obliterated.
This is similar to the concept of heat & cold, where cold is simply the absence of heat (not a separate entity to measure)…
2) I think he was talking about angles, not angels, singing – which was what I wanted to hear. As far as angels singing, I think the primary reference is in Luke 2, though that was prior to his work on earth.
Spelling class 101.
Angles = connecting lines made with protractors.
Angels = heavenly beings who are God’s messengers.
Just for clarification. Because yes, Chris L, Kyle completely missed your joke.
Sorry about that Chris L. soemtimes I just don’t get it.
Hell is also a place. There is weeping, gnashing of teeth, fire, sulfur ect.. Just like heaven is a place! So He did create it and for a purpose.
Rev 5
8And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
Here you see the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders singing a new song about the great salvation in Christ! Also I should clarify, we I said singing I really meant worship. Also you can the the seripham praises God as holy, holy, holy in Isa.
God would not be “absence.” God is just as present on earth as He is in heaven. It is just in certain times and places He manifest His presence more or less. I do agree that hell is an “absence” from Him but it is also a real place. Do I know the location, some say the center of the earth, no. Does this mean it is not really of course not. I just trust what the bible says about it. God created so He would know more them me.
Sorry I spell at a elementary level.
Rick,
I think there’s still a difference. Anger is primarily an emotion, and wrath is the execution of a judgement. God’s wrath goes hand in hand with his desire for justice. Grace is in a sense the withholding of justice. So I do think it is possible for God to execute a judgment without being angry.
Rick,
You’re still missing the point completely. This is not the difference between transgression and sin.
We are saved by grace, yes?
Grace, whether observed through Penal Atonement or Christus Victor, is a redemption from the consequences of a system of Justice, not a system of Anger.
Anger is manifested as fury – chaotic punishment – as seen in the storms and the sea.
Justice is manifested as wrath – orderly punishment – as seen in the consequences of judgement.
Anger has to be appeased. Justice, on the other hand, cannot be appeased. Rather, only grace can avoid the consequences of judgement.
This is a well-understood concept from prior to Jesus’ coming and supported by his and Paul’s teachings on grace. God is not “angry” about anything – He is just, and most men will fall before His justice in the final day because they have not accepted the grace available to them. This is not His fury – it is his wrath – the result of justice…
Phil – if you are speaking of emotionless and antiseptic justice you are not speaking of God. He will meet out His justice with divine emotion and purpose. The Bible does not indicate that He meets out justic dispassionately, far from it.
I do not believe Isaiah 53 indicates God smote His Son without emotion. God’s anger and wrath were poured out upon Christ for us. All outside of Christ will reap a whirlwind of God’s wrath.
Chris – the things you say have no Scriptural basis. You have constructed subjective logic that must be supported Scripturally. The word wroth was used interchangeably in the Old Testament, and the New Testament uses wrath in describing God’s anger.
What is the point of telling people God is not angry but He will in His wrath one day cast you into the Lake of Fire. What is the point?
For the record, the verse in Luke 2 specifically does not say they sang. It says they spoke. If I remember my Theology 101 class right, there is no record of angels singing in Scripture. Cannot be found.
So, Chris L, do you agree with Bell/Ann/Mike/etc. all of that person?
Phil
“Grace is in a sense the withholding of justice.”
Justice is fully satified in mercy and grace. He is both just and the justifer of those who have faith in Christ.
“Grace, whether observed through Penal Atonement or Christus Victor, is a redemption from the consequences of a system of Justice, not a system of Anger”
It is not a system of justice, God has no obiligation to a system of laws that demand justice. It is His character that demands justice, it is who He is. He is rightous, holy, just, jealous, loving, king, patient…..
Psalms
11God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.
If anger is chaotic punishment what is indignation. We are told we can be angry and yet not sin. Angry is an emotion that God fells towards something He created who in returns hates His very exsitence
Just so no one calls me a heretic:
Rick,
I’m not saying God is emotionless at all. I just don’t see that God would tell us to “be angry and not sin”, or in other words don’t act on are anger, when He Himself does it. God isn’t motivated by anger. He is motivated by love.
Now He gets angry, I believe, but I don’t think we can really understand His righteous anger. It seems that the majority of the time He is angry, it is in the context of His people misrepresenting Him.
Joe,
You’re correct – that’s what happens when you go from memory…
Too bad I’ve already mapped out the last “De-sanitizing Christmas” article, and it doesn’t include this myth/tradition that just jumped up and bit me!
“I just don’t see that God would tell us to “be angry and not sinâ€, or in other words don’t act on are anger, when He Himself does it.”
The error in this is that what God does in anger isn’t sin.
Perhaps, this could be a new series called “De-sanitizing the Bible”
That would be fun.
Joe,
If you’re asking about my agreeing that hell=the absence of God, I would say that this is one definition I have heard – with the origins in tohu a vohu in Genesis – that makes sense to me.
To be honest, I’m not all that interested in exactly what hell looks like or whether it’s a physical place in three-dimensions or if it is a state of being or if it is, in the end, annihilation. Whatever it is, it is bad and it is permanent. Regardless, that can’t be my motivation for following Jesus – it’s got to be out of love and gratitude for his sacrifice…
No His people are forgiven. He has no anger towards them. Ever ounce of wrath God had towars us(christian) is full eaten up by Christ. It is finished! His anger is dericted towards those that are hostile in mind, enemies of God, sons of disobence as we all once were! That is grace why would He do that for us! Turn His fierce wrath and anger from us and place it on His Son, His only Son.
Rick,
So God is basically saying, “do as I say, not as I do” in this case? I just can’t buy it.
Hmmmm.
Where would you start (after angels (and angles) singing, that is)?
“gratitude for his sacrifice…”
The rescue from hell/perishing is inherent in that gratitude.
Kyle,
Did you ever wonder why the brunt of Jesus’ anger was directed at the Pharisees. They were supposedly God’s representatives on Earth. Unfortunately, they failed miserably it seems.
Even your boy Jonathan Edwards understood God’s anger at Christians. His famous sermon “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God” was not written for heathens. It was written for people sitting in churches who should have known better.
I’m sure if we put our heads together there’s a lot myths out there. Or we could just take on some of the more angry laden stuff. The suppression of women in church leadership roles; spanking being violence against children; Calvin being an unregenerate murderer, etc.
Chris L.
Why do you spilt it doesn’t fear, love, righeous, justice, grace, wrath all draw us to God. It is not just the nice one that we like that do it. it is all of them. If you look at Jesus’s warnings concerning salvation he seemed to allude to judement a lot along with love.
Jesus should anger. he did not sin! We can show anger and still not sin. Not sure exactly how since we can never know our own motives but it is possible to act in an anger but loving way. I should study this more. Anger what is the role of righteous anger in a christians life???hmmm…..
Phil
Have you hear or read the sermon? I am sure you have. You can never assume that everyone sitting in the pews are christians. The bible is full of warnings to christians because the gospel is central to everything. We will harden our hearts if it where not for the gospel and there are many people that where not christians in the church.
The title is Sinners not christians. The reason the sermon was so effective was because everyone was a christian by birth then. Much like muslim nations are today. There are tares amongst the wheat even today. Paul desired most to preach the gospel to the romans who where already christians. Why?
Kyle,
That’s my point. People in churches should be living in a certain way. By not doing so, they’re misrepresenting God. Therefore, it ticks God off. I believe that ticks Him off a lot more than the average heathen sinning.
I guess, I still do not think He has any anger or wrath towards those in Christ. Judgement does start with the church though. From what I understand biblically God is grieved, saddened, hurt and angry(if seprated from judgement and wrath) when His kids sin but He does not judge with wrath He judges with discpline.
I do too… in fact I try to use spell check as much as possible… as it seems I can’t spell as well as i used to.
Mostly my fingers can’t type as fast as i think… or that I think they should.
I get a bit frustrated as on little letter can change teh whole enemaing. Spell check only tells me if the spelling was right but nto tell me if I miss that spelled the word right but left out a or used the wrong word with the right letters.
hope that helps some of you with you insecurities with spellijng.
iggy
This text was unedited to show my human flaws…
lol
i think we need to be careful when we quote Psalms and Proverbs as if they are systematic theological statements in the vein of some of the epistles.
genre (along with context) determine how we should read a particular text.
It’s simply not good enough to hold to a kind of “historical-grammatical” hermeneutic without taking into account those things.
“many even sporting the same dark rimmed glasses.”
I encourage whoever wrote this to look through any college yearbook from the 60’s . . . if you want to complain about dark-rimmed glasses, then have at it!
Hey everyone…
Can you take a moment to pray for me. I am having just some strange muscle pains… or joint pains… like the flu but without all the other symptoms…
IOW, I just plain hurt today… way more than usual and cannot figure out what is going on… it has been like this for a couple of weeks but today is the worse.
Thanks
iggy
Iggy,
Will do.
You haven’t been ripping any phonebooks or blowing up any hot water bottles lately have you?
No, but that would explain it… I could do a phone book at one time… but I never had the breath to do a hot water bottle.
iggy
And you’d condemn him even if he were Jesus.
What’s the time stamp on that original comment, Tim?
Tim and Joe…
It was a statement by Chris P… and i stopped reading his comments a while ago… they just sound so Charles Masonish they actually scare me a bit…
It is like they almost make sense then they sound like a raving lune who needs to be locked away to not harm himself or others….
Scary stuff those ODM’s…
iggy
Joe,
Its way up at the top. And it was written by our favorite drive by commenter. Looks like it was 10:46AM Dec 20.