When Scoring Points is of Greater Need than Love
It was with great sadness that I read about this past weekend’s shootings in Arvada, Colorado. My in-laws from Allenspark, Colorado (several hours away from Arvada) were here in Indiana with us, so they were rather interested in following the story, as well. It was such a tragedy that a family lost two children in such a sad and senseless way. I found somewhat of a sense of providence in that 40-50 more lives were probably saved because a member of the New Life church, Jeanne Assam, was carrying a gun, as part of increased security, and used it to deadly effect.
There was applause as Assam spoke to reporters and TV cameras saying, “God guided me and protected me.”
New Life’s Senior Pastor Brady Boyd called Assam “a real hero” because Murray “had enough ammunition on him to cause a lot of damage.”
When asked by a reporter if she felt like a hero, Assam said, “I wasn’t just going to wait for him to do further damage.”
“I give credit to God,” she said.
What an example of God providing in a time of tragedy.
Granted, you knew that there would be folks with political agendas to advance in the wake of the shooting, primarily the anti-gun lobby, as Virgil Vaduva noted in his article on Unfinished Christian. Well, just as in the world apart from the church there are those to whom a cloud with a silver lining is only an invitation to call for more lightning, such nasty individuals also seem to find a home in the church. Why allow God to get the glory when there are political points to be scored?
The long knives of the Sanhedrin were out in full force, seeing this as as a time to take shots at a church in tragedy (and not the first time they’ve done it to this church). When you’re at war with the forces of this present darkness, it isn’t surprising that there will be shots that are fired at brothers and sisters in Christ - literally or figuratively. What is really sad is when the get shot in the back.
But it’s not like this is something new for rabid watchdogs in need of being put down…
December 12th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Thank you, Chris, for posting this. This opportunity to make some abstract doctrinal points at the expense of a Christian community tragedy was one of the most dispicable and self righteous I’ve ever read, even among the most virulent blogs. That woman was a hero and her actions by everyone’s account saved lives. But because it happened at a church that wasn’t among the “approved” list she was maligned in herchoice of words.
There was no sign of symapathy for the loved ones, only a ivory tower smugness that many have come to expect from these frauds. Any crevice, any slight variation from their own verbiage brings a critical spirit.
CRN should be ashamed for taking a pot shot at a hero, who by God’s grace was able to rsik her life to save others. One onders if that post would have been different if the same incident would have happened at MacArthur’s church.
You can stop wondering.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
BTW Brendt - these are the kind of Calvinists that give people like you a bad name. They will devour anything in their doctrinal path, even when people are heartbroken. They have no conscience.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Chris L. and Rick,
Grace. Please show love and grace. I sense a spirit of hostility here.
DT
December 12th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
DT,
Hmmm… and how do you think I feel going to many of your friends sites! LOL!
(Not being hostile, just truthful)
iggy
December 12th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Hostility?!?
Let’s see - a church is reeling because of a tragic shooting, with the only positive in the situation being that God put a woman in the right place at the right time to stop the bloodshed, and all y’all can do is post an article on how she and the church somehow were trying to stop God from doing His work.
Hostility?!?
Holy cow. That’s quite a bit of chutzpah from someone who likes to drop in to make false accusations once a week…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:16 am
This is some pretty sickening stuff.
Have they no shame? No sense of decency? At least let the church bury the dead before engaging in these kinds of petty assaults.
Perhaps people will see the true colors at work here.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:27 am
My heart goes out to that church and the families of those who were killed.
Can you imagine how awful it must have been that day? I shudder to think about it. Praise the Lord that church had a security guard and that the shooter didn’t show up at a church that DIDN’T have security. It could have been a whole lot worse.
There’s times to criticize and times not to criticize. This situation is one time that’s not appropriate to criticize, I think.
And sometimes when your adrenaline kicks in you feel strangely calm and steady, which may explain why that woman’s hand did not shake.
My prayers go out to the writers of the articles as well, that they will ask God for judgement and wisdom concerning what they choose to write.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:34 am
There is very little that ranks as hollow as a call for grace and love from someone who hangs out with Ken and Ingrid. Just when I think it cannot get anymore less Christian Ken links to another doctrinal dragon without any concern or compassion for those reeling from a violent tragedy.
And DT calls for us to show grace and love. No, sir, there are times where rebuke and correction is needed and apprporiate. I continue to be repulsed at those whose idolic doctrines are more important than showing restraint and sympathy for REAL people, brethren in Christ, who will live with this until they die.
But these meaningless bloggers sit in safe, air conditioned rooms and spew doctrinal salt into the wounds Christ commanded us to bind up and heal. If that was real Christianity I would be a Muslim.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:24 am
Wow sounds like a jungle here with all the chest thumping.
Just out of curiosity, how many here are “packing” at church?
How many of your churches have security?
Also the autopsy results on the shooter show that he took his own life.
I really don’t believe that any of you bothered to read the post or most of the comments.
It is amusing how half of the commenters said “gee New Life is apostate ,but……..”
Anyway I can see what kind of Christ you worship, the kind that blows people away. Now even Chris L. wants to “put the guy down” Wow.
You are no different than what you claim to criticize.You are worse.
Take away your comfortable middle class American lives, and your software and toys, and you guys would be in hell. Amazing.
I am so glad I am on the “rez” We don’t get tainted by this kind of garbage. By that I mean what is espoused here.
Come LordJesus and purge the earth with fire.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:27 am
BTW the true church is at war with this present darkness?.
These churches don’t know what spiritual warfare is and apparently neither do you.
I wonder what the suffering church wordlwide thinks of the
Rambo church in the USA.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:01 am
Ingrid, Ken, and now Chris P.,
Will you all please SHUT UP and stop your arrogant and heartless drivel? Pray instead for the families of the YWAM staff who were murdered. Pray for the DTS students and fellow staff members that are grieving at YWAM Denver. Pray for the family that lost two daughters at New Life Church.
The complete lack of Christ-like compassion during these kind of times is absolutely sickening. Y’all remind me of the parable of the unmerciful servant, who received great mercy from the king, yet refused to show any to others.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:22 am
Hit a nerve eh? Just another know it all who assumes that we don’t pray, or have feelings. I do not have to put on a pharisaical show like the commenters here. You have you reward gentlemen.
I lead the intercessory group at our church and believe me we pray. Even pray for you guys.
I have been praying for all involved in this tragic story, but we pray for God to be glorified and for His will in all things, whether the man centered crowd agrees or not.
Just like the OT patriarchs who were praying according to the Lord’s’prayer model before Jesus even taught it.
Daniel 9:
12″Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.
13″As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth.
14″Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.
15″And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day–we have sinned, we have been wicked.
16″O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us.
17″So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary.
18″O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.
19″O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
December 13th, 2007 at 2:25 am
Your scripture analogy doesn’t wash either. I am not being unmerciful toward anyone, another false assumpton, and no one owes me a thing.
If you want people to shut up, quit blogging.
Pious blether!
December 13th, 2007 at 2:43 am
You’re truly amazing.
But not in a good way.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Chris P,
I have never seen such a callous person… I have hung out with Hell’s Angels with more compassion than you show now… so if a ungodly person can show compassion how much more would you think one who claims to know the God of all compassion.
Do you think that YWAM base was getting “judged”? Then you are some kind of Job’s friend and need Elihu to come and rebuke you.
May the Lord rebuke you in your hate and mischaracterization of our great Lord and God who has come to save mankind.
It seems you do not love and I wonder if that is becuase you do not know love… as you sound more like this:
I do not see anything from your words that show you have passed from death to life…
iggy
1 John 4: 7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13. We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:04 am
Chris P., you and the others have openly demonstrated that you need no repentance, which in Biblical terms is called a Pharisee. To withold compassion for people because your self righteousness won’t let you cross doctrinal lines is repulsive.
A heartless Christianity is no Christianity at all, and it is astonishing to see that not only do you show no compassion, you even have the cowardly and pitiful gall to criticize and attack people in their most vunerable time of need. You are no authentic witness for Christ. Most large churches have security, arms bearing or not. That stupid argument was for another day, but your stone heart pounces upon any opportunity to prove your theological manliness even if it heaps burdens upon those already grieving with unspeakable grief.
This episode is the centerpiece for what is wrong with most of the ODMs, and it has exposed the heartless underbelly of their spirit. They have no concience and actually do not care for sinners, saved or lost. Whatever doctrine that does not bear the fruit of love and compassion when an enemy has been wounded proves beyond argument that doctrine is a lie.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Chris P.,
Saying, “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t beat up on recent victims of unspeakable violence” does not equal “lack of knowledge of spiritual warfare.”
Are you for real? Do you really believe the stuff that you write? “Rambo Church?” What? You are mocking the events that happened? Two girls are dead and you are mocking what happened?
Would you tell their mother to her face, whose husband is in the hospital, that her family attends a “Rambo Church?”
I used to think that there was much commendable about what you were doing. But I’m at an utter loss about what you’ve commented here. You’ve completely lost me. It must take tremendous hate to be so glib about something so tragic.
Rambo Church indeed. Quite ironic.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:23 am
I hope this comment puts an end to all of this.
Now is a time to weep with those who weep. This church is in a time of deep trial — it is our duty to pray for those involved, ask Christ to do a work in their hearts, that He would have the preeminance, that He would be glorified, that the gospel of Jesus Christ would go forward because of these events.
There are many things to discuss about this church, their beliefs, even their methodologies. However, in the spirit of Christ, let us save it for another week.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Rick,
I wonder it people like Chris P even realize that many of us here have friends and family associated with YWAM.
I find it interesting we are accused of “chest thumping” when i see it from our side it is of remorse and sorrow… then comes along DT and Chris P in a self righteous stupor and thump their chest and give us the Pharisaical middle finger as they drive on with out a care…
To quote angry judgment passages is sad in a time when we should be like the Comforter and reach out with compassion.
This is why I will never return to their way of thinking… and would rather burn in hell later to show the love of God now, than to never show the love of God. (if Chris thinks that as what is going to happen to me, then he needs to read how Paul would have given up his own salvation for the Jews… that is what i mean)
blessings,
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 8:24 am
clearly,
May God bless you…
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Yes, Dave, we cannot know the pain some are experiencing. The devil will attempt to question the faith of some, but this will be an opportunity for Christ to work. If Jesus should tarry many churches will experience things like this and we all must show selflessness in the times ahead.
I would feel the same sense of umbridge if someone had murdered people at Grace Community and some emergents had criticized. There are times when the Spirit of Christ would have us stand down for a time and comfort one another.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:43 am
There were a few blogs out there, Ben Witherington for one, who took a very balanced view of the sitution.
He does bring up some very good points.
I am not anti-gun, but the teachings of Jesus and the apostles do need to be seriously pondered personally as we view this horrible tragedy.
Let’s remember to pray for Matthew Murray’s parents as well.
Shalom
December 13th, 2007 at 9:14 am
“Will you all please SHUT UP and stop your arrogant and heartless drivel?”
Did you mean this suggestion from Chris Lyons: “rabid watchdogs in need of being put down…”
Yeah, calling for someone to be exterminated; that’s very loving.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Amen, Nathanael.
Tim and I talked about this last night in our podcast (which will probably come out next week). One of the greatest witnesses I have seen in a situation like this was last year in the Amish school shootings, where the families of the murdered children came to give comfort to the family of the killer.
As for churches “packing heat”, Chris P, there are recommendations by homeland security (dealing with public gatherings of 200+ people) and insurance companies (dealing with the same) that most medium-to-large churches follow, in terms of having on-site security. My church, which runs at about 4,000 members, has a number of members who are policemen, and we have several in uniform every Sunday to discourage mischief of several types, including this.
I’m afraid I don’t track with you - I don’t see where I said that. As noted above, his family will need as much, if not more, ministering as the families of the victims…
December 13th, 2007 at 9:24 am
The thing that I can’t get over is seeing that graphic of the woman with the gun right next to the “Friend of Emergent” logo on Virgil’s blog. That just kind of flies in the face of the ODM’s portrayal of the EC as liberal, hippy democrats.
As far as people having guns in church, my wife and I have been talking about this. I have to say that I have mixed feelings about this. I certainly don’t condemn the woman for doing what she did, as she certainly took some brave and courageous steps. It seems she had a law enforcement background, so she knew what she was doing.
The thing I worry about is churches becoming fortresses with security guards and gates. I’m not naive enough to think that we shouldn’t be vigilant, but it comes down to a matter of trust to me. Do we find security in being armed or by knowing God?
Like I said, I’m not condemning or judging anyone here. These are airing my thoughts. I’m grateful that it seems that this woman prevented more bloodshed.
Another question I have to ask myself is this. Do we grieve as much when this type of thing happens in a mosque in Irag or Lebanon? Do those types of things grieve God just as much. Would we go to just as great of lengths to protect those people as we would Christians? I would hope the answer would be yes, but I don’t think I can honestly say that for myself.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:24 am
I have a close friend who is out on that YWAM base.
She was out bowling with friends. They were supposed to be back by 12:00 midnight, but stayed out a little later. They were mere minutes from the base when she received a phone call from one of the staff members in the building telling them to stay away. Matthew Murray was still in the building when he called them.
The Lord gave this young man the presence of mind in the middle of the chaos to call his returning brothers and sisters to warn them of the danger.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Well what to say? Nothing really…I’m stunned.
D.T. and Chris P. Thank you for reminding me why Grace is such a hard concept to understand.
Just for the sake of some among us the Fruits of the Spirit are; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, and Self-Control.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Sorry, Ken, but despite the self-love reflected in your blogs, closing down a blog is a far cry from “calling for someone to be exterminated”…
December 13th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Thought this was pertinent. As to why New Life had security in the first place. Found here
December 13th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Chris P,
My Church has Security.
Ken Silva,
Please repent of your dishonesty. If you like I’ll post the same verses from our other day calling you to repentence. I do this for your own good. You have said one thing and done another. That is contrary to the message of Jesus.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:40 am
I followed the links provided on the CRN site. I was surprised that they took such a position on this. After seeing so many live, news video-feeds where fully-clad and trained SWAT teams, armed with military firearms, are sitting there making school kids/adults come out with their hands up while perps are blowing kids/adults away inside, I find it refreshing that this volunteer had the fortitude to take this guy down.
Praise God!
However, the real surprise comes via the link to the “last words of David” blog, where we are offered “another perspective.” Listed under “Music” the host of the blog has a link to a band called Savior Machine. If you go to Youtube you can view this band, in all their Goth/Cure-ish/Progpunk glory, complete with flashing lights, smoke, video, worldly dress and hairstyles!
Because CRN is directing people to this blog which openly promotes such Hellish music as Savior Machine, CRN is to be dismissed as Apostate.
Jesus is THE LORD!
December 13th, 2007 at 10:47 am
We as the body of Christ have serious issues to flush out in the days ahead. For instance, if a deranged man enters Grace Community Church and starts shooting and they call the police to come and shoot him isn’t that the same as having your own security?
The issue here is how we respond to a tragedy, remember, it isn’t what goes into a man that defiles him, it is what comes out. A fool utters his whole heart, and in the abundance of words is sin. There are times that prayerful and loving silence is more Christlike than immediately identifying a person’s shortcomings. I just cannot see doctrinal interrogation coming from the Good Samaritan.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Looks like Chris L has his own category now at CRN! Check out the site. Of course I have had mine for some time now
Way to go my brother! Wear it proudly.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Jeff,
Savior Machine is a christian band… they love the lord Jesus… can you stop judging by the outside of the cup when the inside has been cleanse by the blood of Jesus?
Oh and he is more inline with Ken Silva… as he also pushes Steve Camp music!
Oh, and did you notice that the person is having health issues and asked for prayer?
Shhheeesh…
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Wait… jeff was I missing the satire?
oops!
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 11:02 am
The phrase “put them down” was used in a pejorative sense not of course in a killing sense. With all the medieval battle terminology used by CRN one would think they would recognize that.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Ken is sickeningly dishonest.
After Chris L said that “put down” did not refer to being exterminated, Ken published an article at CRN that said exactly the opposite.
It’s one thing to misunderstand someone and publish it. It’s another thing to know the truth, and publish the lie anyway.
Ken, can you really not see the dishonesty in your latest post? Can you not see that what you posted is childish and deceitful? Such things are clearly sinful, and you need to repent and publicly apologize for your lie.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Wait,
Are we surprised that Ken is being dishonest. We have all the proof we need right here. Ken says umpteen times,”I’m not coming back” but then comes back, if a man cannot keep that simple statement why would we be shocked to find dishonesty in other places. Ken’s heart seems to be dishonest since my POMO Bible still says that out of heart a man speaks.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:18 am
I have to say I’m appalled at how the watchdogs used this tragedy to make some vauge disconnected point.
I too was curious about armed guards at a church until I read about the sorts of things the church has gone through, so agree or disagree, I can’t blame them for the choices they made and it seemed to work out for this particular situation, weather the wounds where self-inflicted or not, I’m sure the presence of an opposing force made a difference in what happened.
I’m praying for the families of these victims, I can’t even understand what they are going through, and I pray that God comforts them in this time and that they draw closer to Him in this and are not pushed away by both this tragedy and if they ever catch wind of what the watchdogs are posting. If I was a new Christian and went through this and then saw those postings, I’d have to say I’d probably run away if I thought that’s what Christians where really like.
Savior Machine is a solid band, not my style, but I have a friend who has found a huge amount of encouragment in his faith through listening to them. But if you’re stuck on people dressing different then you, I can see how you’d get stopped at the superficial.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Good point Joe!
So, if you say “naughty words” you might not be saved, but if you are a habitual liar, you’re qualified to be a pastor-teacher, and Christianity’s police chief?
Odd.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:26 am
“Ken says umpteen times,â€I’m not coming back†but then comes back,…”
Want to give it a rest Joe. You see, I know your boy Rick Frueh is very honest, so if you ask him then he will tell you that on a few occasions–right in the comments section–Rick offfered the invitation for me to come back.
And so, since I know at one time he was a contributor here, I simply changed my mind and took Rick up on his gracious offer. This is not lying.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:26 am
of course!
People always keep their pet sins and refuse to name them sin, while quick to point out the sin and mistakes of everyone else.
It just helps you sleep at night!
December 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Ah… so Chris L is being called out by Ingrid and Ken for “threatening” “extermination.”
Hehe. And be careful… she is “informing those who need to be informed of this.”
I love how she says she has never suggested people should be harmed. Instead she only celebrates when people she disagrees with are harmed.
So… do you think the FBI, or whoever “those who need to be informed” are, started laughing when they read the alleged threat?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:40 am
I have read all the comments from the endtheapostacy blog and found one of the dissenters to have left an interesting comment.
Are the fundamentalists fighting amongst themselves?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Haha, Ken,
Nice Scramble. Rick invited you back all nine (or whatever the ridiculous number is) times?
Did Rick also absolve you of being dishonest when you said you studied under Walter Martin?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Sorry Ken, I forgot this part:
REPENT Ken, now while God is still giving you the time to do so.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:47 am
What does, “You do not know who you are addressing” mean?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:48 am
“But those who belong to Jesus simply don’t go around using this kind of careless and irresponsible speech.”
Wow, Ironic …
Looks like Ingrid failed to read the comments of the post as well.
I’m not trying to keep count here, but so far we have a liar in Ken, and Ingrid fails to follow decency when it comes to verifying information before publishing it. I doubt very seriously that Chris received any inquiry as to the nature of his comment.
And to clarify …
watchdog is a metaphor. Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that if I said “someone needs to put a leash on the watchdogs”, I didn’t mean that we should put a literal leash on them, but rather put some restraints on their site. Likewise, “put them down” is obviously metaphoric for shutting down their site.
I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. But then again, hate blinds.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Ken and Ingrid’s fruit is showing; and it stinks.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:52 am
When being in the truth (e.g. “scoring points,” as you redefine/reimagine it - nice concise straw man there btw) is of greater need than love? Where is there love without truth?
Love instead rejoices in the truth. There is no need to rejoice where there are fuzzy feelings coupled with confusion.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
I’m not trying to keep count here, but so far we have a liar in Ken,
So how long do you figure until Ken uses MS Tony Jones’ wifes’ “reasoning” (for lack of a better word) and sues the pants off you guys?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Oh, Ingrid…
She lost any authority to call anyone out for using “careless and irresponsible speech” a long, long time ago. It’s kind of like the KGB complaining about a local police department.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
..and understanding isn’t Ken and Ingrid’s strong suits, so I can see how they would totally miss that put them down is about their sites and not about them as people.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Haha, sue us for what? Having screen shots that prove he said he studied under Dr. Walter Martin when all he did was read some tapes? There’s no way Ken lets that get in the public record.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Paula,
Are you saying Ken isn’t a habitual liar?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Do you think Paula is really Paula White?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
The way you guys here use words to get your point across and the way Ingrid uses words to get her point across are extremely different, as some of you may have noticed. I don’t think you guys understand each other half the time. Reading Ingrid’s most recent article that Nate mentioned above, Ingrid is sounding a bit freaked out to me. If she’s not going to read the comments here or email someone with her questions, I think someone in charge here should email her with an explanation (that no physical harm was intended, etc). I think it would be a good thing to do. Hopefully you don’t hate her, let’s make sure she knows that.
God bless.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:59 am
merry makes a decent point. Although I find it hard to believe she is all that scared of a comment that wasn’t even directed at her in the first place.
But, assuming she is, it may be a good idea to ease her mind. It would be nice if she had open comments so someone could do so. Oh wait ….
December 13th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Right, Nate. Actually you’d be surprised at how differently people think. A comment that one person might take nonchalantly as not meaning anything another person may take very seriously. It’s one thing people have to be careful of, especially on the internet where you can’t hear the tone of a person’s voice.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Paula,
Libel requires that the statements made about the subject are untrue. If Ken ever sued us, he’d lose his shirt…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Now, Merry, if you’re looking for reasoned conversation on the internet, you’re barking up the wrong tree. You probably should go somewhere where people are more level-headed, like your local bar or bowling alley.
(and, yes, this is sarcasm)
December 13th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Christians should never sue each other over words or spiritual disagreements.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Chris,
would you mind sending an email to Ingrid to ease her mind? It doesn’t have to be anything special.. Just let her know that in the comments it was made clear that you were talking about the watchdog sites being shut down, and you were not calling for, advocating, or intending on any bodily harm whatsoever.
It might help.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Phil . . . LOL.
Reasoned conversation would be nice! Actually I’m just still trying to figure out why Christians hate each other so much.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
OK, I just read the endtheapostacy post(?)–I’m not sure I can actually call that thing a blog. Couple of thoughts.
1.)Ben whoever seems to be a very poor writer
2.)SJ Walker has an interesting profile and blog.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Nate,
I already did (posting it here before it shows up somewhere else):
December 13th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
I have also added “Put Down” (as in “the rabid watchdoggie was put down”) to the glossary to avoid future misunderstanding.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
May God forgive all of us who dare to call ourselves Christians for the hateful, spiteful comments that are being spilled out on this blog! The name-calling, throwing Scripture verses like knives at one another!! Taking potshots at someone’s writing skills or lack thereof - as if that had anything to do with the issues at hand!!!
Sinful, shameful childishness……..
December 13th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Paula…
So clear this up for me…The title of your post is “Chris Lyons true colors: mean-spirited and hateful” and the title of Chris’ post is “When Scoring Points is of Greater Need than Love”. Then you proceed to suggest Ken suing for liable because of Chris’ article. When he wasn’t even mentioned (not even tagged) in the post.
Please tell me you are more intellectually honest than this?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Elizabeth, I think you mean this blog or this blog and not this one…
You could go leave a comment there, but you can’t leave comments there, so we’ll just pass this one along to them (since they’re frequent readers)…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Elisabeth,
I didn’t take a pot shot at him, I said his writing skills are not that good at all. If he’s gonna post something and everyone misses what he said, by his own admission, the problem probably lies in his ability to write not the readers, but hey come on over and do the drive by thing.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Elizabeth,
Name-calling? What on earth are you talking about? I’ve not seen anyone call anyone any names in this thread. I think you’re mixing us up with some other blogs…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Actually, chris, I find it interesting that Paula ended her rant this way:
The gunman in Arvada was specifically making a statement against Christians, so it was REAL physical violence. In this case, the “getting shot in the back” was verbal, but still just as saddening - because we have a Christian seeing a brother in need and spitting on him over doctrinal differences rather than offering condolences or - if that’s not possible - just shutting their pie-hole.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
pastor silva,
what about your ‘yes’ being ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ being ‘no’?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
proverbs speaks of a blessing for the one who keeps their word to their own hurt, too.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Love Child
Needed to get in this post!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Semi-pelagian, man-loving, poster children for the apostate nastion you should all be ashamed of yourselves for the way you have castigated and maligned the venerable Ingrid Schluetter and Pastor/Teacher/Prophet/Calvin 2.0/Internet Pulpit having/Former guitarist/Ken Silva.
REPENT FOR THE LOVE CHILD SPEAKETH!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
don’t forget “Dudes” and “my wife is hot”, too.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Here’s another exhibit in the watchdoggie focus on control.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
What’s the deal with Tony’s wife?
December 13th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
My bad
December 13th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Well, basically Mrs. Jones wrote Ken a letter asking him to refrain from defaming and slandering her husband. The nerve of some people!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
I have the letter posted on my site and you can even comment
Threat of lawsuit and investigation. The paranoia of the paranoid.
Bruce
December 13th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
I don’t get what the problem is with that letter.
A Wife was honest and invited him to their home.
She didn’t call names…but was still clear about her opinion.
Again…
it’s just soooooooooooooooooo hard when people won’t lay down and take it up the rear from the Righteous.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
nc,
You do have a way with words, I’ll give you that.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
you are all crazy american religionists
December 13th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Well, for real, Phil!
All this talk of whining and viciousness just is another tantrum that people won’t bow.
Augustine called it the sin of dominating people.
And when we resist…we get accused of the same.
It’s completely different.
I don’t care what Ingrid, Ken, etc. believe or how they do church. Good on ‘em all! Be faithful as best you understand, ya know?
But when people try to project their preferences/interpretations in a way that attacks and demeans others and then there is vigorous disagreement about their claims, they cry “vicious” or “persecution” or “hypocrite”.
It’s not the same thing and the assertion that it is doesn’t make it so.
It’s like Fox Noise: Just because you say every 5 seconds you’re fair and balanced doesn’t make it true. It only demonstrates that people can start to believe something if you say it enough times in a row…
But then again…
I’m just a mean-spirited person because I don’t agree with some shrieking self-important person whose job is to listen to the sound of her own voice.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
new post on crn by Paul Walker about what he thinks about this issue. It seems to me like you guys are saying the samething. But hey might as well keep aruguing and bickering.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Hey, did anyone noticed that some of us who “hate” Ken.. stood up for Ken?
With Jeff, who stated:
It was interesting that at least two of us were quick to point out that that band was Christian… and that the person should not slander Ken Silva that way…
Yet, Ken will come here (after saying he will never return) and put down someone for reminding him of his OWN WORDS… and then state we are all dishonest…
Funny we stand up against Ken for slandering others, then others for slandering Ken and Ken still does not get it.
Ken, you are welcome, but at least acknowledge you are going back on your OWN WORDS by coming back. I understand about saying those exact words as I have with Tony Rose and Mike Ratliff, yet neither of them have invited me back… nor do I see myself doing so… but if you want to renege on your OWN WORDS go ahead and we will over look that you have.
But do not castigate or rebuke someone for point out your OWN WORDS against you… for that is what Jesus will do on the day of Judgement…
and stop lying about Tony Jones…
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Iggy,
I think you should say that you will over look that b/c I will not. This is a man who has built his entire “ministry” on the idea that others words must match his. He has said too many times that he’s not coming back.
I can see overlooking it 1 or 2 times or even 3 but we’re well beyond that now.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Joe,
I am saying is all he has to do is admit his OWN WORDS and he is welcome here to converse with us… but if he is going to stay all self righteous about it… he can stay away for all I care.
iggy
December 13th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Chris L.
“That’s quite a bit of chutzpah from someone who likes to drop in to make false accusations once a week…”
I can drop in every day and make a “false accusation” if you like. But then again, you don’t want those who oppose you strongly to come by do you?
But I am not part of your elitest group here.
When I think of your group here Chris L. I think of Luke 18.11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men.
DT
December 13th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
That’s funny Todd, I read that verse and thought, “Man, that sounds like Ken and his group.” Seriously, I posted about it here once.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Iggy,
“then comes along DT and Chris P in a self righteous stupor and thump their chest and give us the Pharisaical middle finger”
Now that is class!!
DT
December 13th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Iggy,
“I do not see anything from your words that show you have passed from death to life…”
Since when did your name become Jesus Christ?
DT
December 13th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Iggy,
Yes, I was being facetious on the music thing.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
By the way…
I just remembered…
There is security at Johnny Mac’s church.
I don’t know if they are armed…but there are men in the front designated as protection for him.
ironic.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
John Mac, the late John Wimber, and probably quite a few others who have large, visible ministries, have ALL had to have bodyguards or security due to threats of death or assault. Usually from nutcases who had nothing to do with church, or Christianity — just mentally unstable and with easy access to firearms. It’s bizarre, but it happens.
It’s to no-one’s discredit if they decide to protect themselves when they’ve received threats — didn’t Nehemiah pray for protection AND issue his workers swords?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Actually, I would prefer that those who just come by to make false accusations, toss insults and have no interest in actual conversation to not comment. Strongly opposing does not have to be congruent with being a complete jerk.
There are (and have been) a number of folks who have disagreed and desired respectful conversation and have received it.
There are (and have been) a number of folks who have disagreed and been complete jerks. Some have received patience in return, and some have not. While I wish that insult would not be traded for insult, I fall into that trap - as do others - all too often. I do hope to improve, though…
December 14th, 2007 at 2:31 am
DT,
I am using the same criteria that is used on me by all your friends… if I am wrong, then they are wrong and you need to tell them to repent and stop their attacks.
So am I still wrong to judge him by his fruit as you and your so oft do of me and others?
BTW do you see anything by Chris P’s words above that he is truly acting as one who is living out the Life of Christ? If so… show me in which sentence above so shows his love and concern for those who were victims of this crime?
If you can do that I will repent… if you cannot, then the words Chris P states show the condition of his heart… of Jesus is a liar s he stated, “Out of the heart the mouth speaks”…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Iggy,
“show me in which sentence above so shows his love and concern for those who were victims of this crime?
If you can do that I will repent”
I lead the intercessory group at our church and believe me we pray. Even pray for you guys.
I have been praying for all involved in this tragic story, but we pray for God to be glorified and for His will in all things,
You got onto me a while back for as you called it “name-calling.”
What is this?
Actually, I would prefer that those who just come by to make false accusations, toss insults and have no interest in actual conversation to not comment. Strongly opposing does not have to be congruent with being a complete jerk.
Where is the tolerant emergent crowd here?
DT
December 14th, 2007 at 9:43 am
DT,
Instead of compassion you gave insult and then implied we were not showing grace… in fact that we were hostile in that we did not like how some used this tragedy to promote their own agendas at the expense of the victims.
You stated first off…
That was a very judgmental statement…
Chris P then adds his voice and states:
And then goes on with a verbal assault against us who are mourning…
Then you claim I am being unloving in rebuking such arrogance and disregard for grace in yours and Chris P’s own words… so in my rebuke show me how and where I have sinned in this… and as I stated i will repent and confess vigorously…
I also pray for you both…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:45 am
So why are you being one and condoning Chris P’s actions and words here? Why vomit on the grieving? Is your vomit more holy than the Blood of Jesus that you need cover us with it?
Peace and Grace…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:47 am
Iggy,
There is no reasoning with you.
DT
December 14th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Not if you have none to offer…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:50 am
So why are you condoning sin?
Can you answer a simple question?
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:57 am
BTW you throw out that “tolerant” thing… I see that tolerance is lesser that love… it is to see the other as lesser… so it is not true love where the other is equal… so you show ignorance as to how I and many other “emergents” even think..
And it shows that you have a double standard to call me to tolerance when you do not see it as something to pursue yourself….all I see is that only God is tolerant in scripture… I do not see anyone else called to tolerance… but to love.
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Iggy,
Speaking of liars around here.
From you “If so… show me in which sentence above so shows his love and concern for those who were victims of this crime?
If you can do that I will repent”
From Pajak “I lead the intercessory group at our church and believe me we pray. Even pray for you guys.
I have been praying for all involved in this tragic story, but we pray for God to be glorified and for His will in all things,”
Where’s the repentance?
Chris L. said ” Actually, I would prefer that those who just come by to make false accusations, toss insults and have no interest in actual conversation to not comment. Strongly opposing does not have to be congruent with being a complete jerk.”
“Jerk” Slang. a contemptibly naive, fatuous, foolish, or inconsequential person
The double standards have been heaped on me…well, what the heck is this? I reminds me a kangaroo court.
DT
December 14th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Rationalize your sin away, but only the Blood of Christ will cleanse you of all unrighteousness…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 10:02 am
You said you would repent. I gave proof. You change subject.
Red Herring?
You condone name-calling as long as your camp is the one doing the calling.
Enough said. I finally see the angle here.
DT
December 14th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Chris stated many unkind words… and attacked us as if we were not also praying for those in this tragedy… he condoned using this to show that “god is punishing” those at that church and organization…
And you call me to repent of calling him a hypocrite for being unloving? LOL!
I repent that Chris P is unloving and hypocritical that he prays with his people then condemns us here for praying and mourning for them…
Feel better?
Now if you have something that I can truly repent of, let me know… but I see that your own words were most harsh and I am standing here in your face… in love (otherwise i would just walk away) and confront you with your own arrogance…
Why is it so hard for you people to confess your own sins and always focus on others?
Maybe you need to look up repentance…
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 10:08 am
One of my seminary professors used to call this in-grown eyeballs.
DT
December 14th, 2007 at 10:12 am
DT,
You called me a “jerk” and that is a name… so get over yourself…
The only chest thumping here was when Chris P went into this…
You cannot see the arrogance and “i am so much better than you” attitude there? You quoted it like it was “good” and “pure” but it reads like he thinks we are not doing so as he is… so he is our standard of righteousness?
Good grief… talk about “man based”.
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 10:12 am
DT,
FYI - my usage of “jerk” was in describing behavior, not specific individuals. Basically, I could have said “If one is only acting like a jerk when they comment, I would prefer that they kept their comment to themselves”, would this satisfy you?
I mean, really?
December 14th, 2007 at 10:13 am
I think he was a wise man.. did you learn from him… and with them what do you see?
iggy
December 14th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Iggy and DT - can both of you dial it back a notch or two?
This seems to be becoming a spitting contest…