picking up the pieces
I knew that the ODMs were going to scramble when I read this interview with Rick Warren, especially since he addresses the lies of the online blogs. Sure enough, it has made all of them start to type, and type frantically. Chris Chris Rosebrough of ExtremeTheology.com has made a feeble attempt to tie Warren with Schuller. At best he loosely proves that Warren was influenced by Schuller’s thoughts on church growth nearly 18 years ago. Ken Silva at apprising.org dragged out all of his old and deflated hit pieces on Warren, proving that he really has nothing new to say. And then there is Ingrid at sliceoflaodicea.com, with her crass name calling and worn-out accusations. The ODMs are busy over this one.
I just sit back and laugh. These guys gotta keep everyone believing that they are right. We wouldn’t want to actually let Warren set the record straight, now would we?
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28 Comments(+Add)
Nathan,
Thanks for linking to Chris’s blog so we could all see how naive you are being.
Chris cite’s Kay Warren in a CT (Christianity Today) article as such…
“During his last year in seminary, he and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller’s Institute for Church Growth. “We had a very stony ride out to the conference,” she says, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. “He had a profound influence on Rick,” Kay says. “We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.”
Imitating Schuller, Warren walked the (then unincorporated but fast-growing) town of Lake Forest, asking what kept people from going to church. (Online Source).”
Hmm, is Pastor Warren telling lies?
*cites
All three of these statements seem to be in harmony with each other. Except, perhaps in the mind of a watchdoggie driven rabid by mere mention of Rick Warren’s name.
what’s your point? Kay is only saying that 18+ years ago they attended a conference and Warren was influenced by him. Rosebrough is acting as if Warren has this on-going relationship with Schuller and is trying to hide something. 18 years ago I watched Sesame Street, and it influenced me to be a musician. Does that mean I have strong ties with it?
sometimes in my head, I imagine that the watchdoggies have a tape recording of the “DUN -DUN-DUUUUN!” sound –the one played when the mystery is revealed in a movie. Yeah, I imagine that they play it when they hit “publish” on their blogs
“best he loosely proves that Warren was influenced by Schuller’s thoughts on church growth nearly 18 years ago.”
vs.
“He had a profound influence on Rick,†Kay says. “We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.â€
Whose words are we going to believe about the influence of Shuller on Warren? Kay Warren or Nathan Neighbor?
This is unbelievable…way to twist the truth guys. I think Rick Warren has a job for you as a minister.
of propaganda that is.
Dave,
Saying someone has had a “profound influence” on someone doesn’t mean a continuing relationship. It can mean a variety of things. To me, it just sounds like Warren was struck by Schuller’s draw on people.
I mean, I would say that the Edge has had a “profound influence” on my guitar playing, but I’ve never met the man. It doesn’t mean I endorse everything he does, either.
It’s a very weak argument.
You’re so right Dave. What was I thinking. I really should have wrote
best he loosely proves that Warren was PROFOUNDLY influenced by Schuller’s thoughts on church growth nearly 18 years ago.
That’s the only discrepancy I see. And look how an adjective really makes a difference. You’re RIGHT! Warren is a liar and a sinner. Quick everyone, get your stones! (note the sarcasm)
Jesus Christ has profoundly influenced my life. I’d like to think that I’ve never looked back.
the fact that Kay specifies exactly what had a profound influence on Warren – positive appeal to nonbelievers – says alot.
Dave,
what of this do you think I am twisting
* 18+ years ago Warren was profoundly influenced buy Schuller’s positive appeal to nonbelievers.
* When asked specifically if he was MENTORED by Schuller, he responds “I’ve only met Robert Schuller twice, I believe. I’ve never had a one-on-one conversation with him. Not once. So how do I even know him?”
Where is the lie? If they asked Warren if they respected Schuller in the past, or if he every used his material, it would be different. Warren honestly answered the question. Even Rosebrough said it!
“Rick Warren may be ‘technically’ correct in saying that he wasn’t ‘personally mentored’ by Robert Schuller”
No one is trying to hide anything!
“has” denotes present tense. “had” denotes past tense. Has influenced vs had influenced is different.
We aren’t talking about one on one coffees in Starbuck’s here, Nathan. Does it take a one on one meeting for my entire ministry to be influenced by someone. I have never even met DA Carson — but yet, I have read his books. My ministry has been significantly influenced by him! The point is that the training that Warren recieved at Shuller’s little school thing has had a profound on the way he does ministry. That’s the point that the “watchdoggies” as you call them are trying to make. That point is significant, btw. Rick can get on an interview and say that he has never had a personal conversation with Shuller. That doesn’t really matter — significant influence is broader than personal conversations.
Dave,
You start your debate by implying that Warren is lying.
When its shown how that didn’t happen you spin your claim to “Well he was influenced”.
Since you leveled the charge the onus is on you to prove where Warren lied. Not on us to prove he wasn’t influenced.
Furthermore these non-sequiter leaps of connection that the ODM’s make only goes to prove Warren’s point of the blogosphere rumor mill.
Clearly,
You’re really unbelievable. You defend Ken by re-defining “self-proclaimed” to mean something other than “self-proclaimed” and now you’re condemning Warren through the same semantic games playing.
Why is it that all watchdoggies seem to reduce their faith to a vocabulary game?
Shuller’s webiste even claims to have mentored Rick.
“We are the home of the world’s first Church Growth Institute, -launching the mega-church movement in the 20th century. Tens of thousands of pastors, including famous graduates Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Bishop Blake, Walt Kallestad, and Sundo Kim of Korea, were mentored here.”
Tim, I can see your pride was hurt when I took you to school on “self-proclaimed.”
Just read Chris R.’s post.
Nathan you nailed it!
Nathan said:
Chris R. said:
Kay Warren said:
Chris R. said:
Chris R. then said:
Finally Chris R. said:
Chris, ‘profound’, ‘heavily’, and ’significantly’ are not synonyms. And they have very different meanings. If one were keeping score I would say that those “bending the truth” may reside in SoCal but they don’t attend Saddleback.
For the record…My last comment is a moot point.
And I can see that you’re blind not just to Ken’s lies, but your own.
IF it wasn’t for all the lies watchdoggies told I’d almost think you were good intentioned and misguided.
“He had a profound influence on Rick,†Kay says. “We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.â€
I guess I’m in trouble too Dave. Robert Schuller had a profound in infuence on me too. He had a hand in bringing me to Christ. I’ll try to make this testimony as short as possible…..first off GEEZER alert, cause I’m going to go WAY back!
After coming out of the military I was drawn into the sales field. In 1971 I was reading Og Mandino, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peele. They were the “scripture” writers of their day for many in sales. It was the “gospel” to many in the sales field I was in. On a boring Sunday I was channel surfing(ALL four of them) and tripped across Robert Schuller, back before his hair had turned white! I certainly was an unbeliever at that time and certainly wasn’t looking for God in any shape form or manner. But, Schuller lured me in. I watch him for few years, read some of his books and was hooked! He was saying everything I had studied. If I had been living in California I would had been at his institute. I lived in Michigan so I only had his books so in a way, I DID attend.
It was Schuller that lowered my defenses. To the the point that I was able to cross the threshold of a little Bible thumpin’ church in New York. Before Schuller that would not have happen. I thought a church was a church was a church. I accepted Christ in that little church in 1974, did I still listen to Schuller? Yup,but, as I matured in Christ I out grew Schuller’s message. Albeit it was only eighteen years ago that Rick Warren for me it’s been almost 35 years. Would I be viewed in that same light when I say the Robert Schuller had a profound effect on me? Do I still follow and endorse what Schuller teaches? No But I guess in some peoples eyes I too would be guilty by association.
I’ll make that same statement, “He had a profound influence on ME,” Scotty says. “I was captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.”
So what am I now, Dave? I trust God enough to know that he can use anything and anybody to bring one to the thrown of Grace. Even people and organizations that are a bit less than what standard you judge by.
Scotty,
I was in sales in 1996, when I was led to Saddleback Church and heard a simple message that I matter to God. The rest is history. Rick Warren had a profound effect on my life with that simple message and I will be forever greatful to my Lord and Savior for using the ministry of Saddleback Church to restore my faith.
I just wish Rick had fessed up to Schuller having had a profound effect on his ministry 18 years ago instead of trying to dodge the bullet by referencing the fact that he has never had a “one on one” conversation with the man. That’s the kind of spin doctoring that gets us all into trouble.
In the words of one famous spin doctor, it always depends on what the meaning of the word “is” is . . .
It’s obvious that Rick Warren just has no respect for the mentor/mentee relationship.
JohnD said, “I just wish Rick had fessed up to Schuller having had a profound effect on his ministry 18 years ago instead of trying to dodge the bullet by referencing the fact that he has never had a “one on one†conversation with the man.”
Personally, I don’t see why he even bothered to address this. It was 18 years ago. A man can’t change?
I wouldn’t matter to me if he was a Mormon 18 years ago, it’s only an issue to his detractors.
I really liked the Spin Doctors… they made a come back last year of sorts…
Oh… wrong forum… but it seemed more interesting than arguing over something 18 years ago that was either profound or heavily or whatever in how RW approached his CHURCH PLANT… it does not say he was influenced in his views on Schuller’s teachings…
I guess also following this logic, Ken was a “rock star” with a record out… many years ago, so he is still profoundly influenced by his once decadent lifestyle… (I mean he had long hair and stuff!)
Ken was heavily influenced by the acetone in the Walter Martin tapes he listened to and decided to do the opposite of!
Ken was heavily influenced by the Clintons as they are now the mentors of the SBC… I guess he has truly learned a lot from them as they got away with a bunch of lies…
I mean this from a guy who can’t even decide if he is a Calvinist or not, but will lambaste anyone who is not!
Ken, the man, the lies the hater false accuser of Christian brethren.
iggy
And I am not even a fan of PDL at all.
Iggy,
I’m just interested in letting my yeas be yeas and my nays be nays. I get tired of the constant spin in our society, be it from the pundits, the politicians, or the preachers.
And oh by the way, I am a fan of of PDC and think PDL is a great way to get introduced to Christian orthopraxy.
And how do you know Warren isn’t.
JohnD,
I am also interested in yes being yes and no being no… And truth being truth and a lie being a lie… and I am very tired of Ken and company not knowing the difference.
As far as PDL, I was very involved in a couple of PDL churches… I see some good things from it but as far a for me, I am not a RW fan… I have not even finished the 40 days of purpose as I just found it a bit… boring.
I am not against PDL I am just not fan of it…
I think this site understands yes being yes and no being no and at times go to absurdity to show how silly Ken and company are at times…
There is more “proof” that Al Gore is a clone and the real AL Gore is captive under the Whitehouse… just look at the way the man’s politics changed since the early 80’s… yet is that true?
That is often how I read Ken… he takes something that is not really that big… puffs it out of proportion then attacks it.
On some occasions, he is right… I have even stated that a few times… yet the stuff he writes on the most with all the name-calling seems to blur the yes and the no and makes it a mixture.
Ken is SBC and calls it apostate… so he is in no position of integrity to go after anyone. If he truly were so honest and true, he would hand in his ordination. Yet, that does not even get to the points where he has only gone out with slander and lies and disregarded the truth.
iggy
gentlemen,
I urge you to stop the bickering and angry rhetoric. Those who want to believe what they want to believe — regardless of the facts — will do go their own way despite the truth. It will NOT matter to them what is said, or how clearly and patiently it is said. I explained this whole silly Robert Schuller thing with regard to Rick Warren (including Kay’s oft-abused quote) in my 2005 book “Rick Warren and the purpose that Drives Him” (see pp. 99-106). It has made no difference. People like Silva and others WANT to believe Warren is a heretic. Indeed, they MUST continue to believe it in order to justify themselevs and push their own agenda. I pray for them. I urge you to pray for them also. My support for Warren has created all manner of false rumors to be spread about me, my faith, my ministry, and devotion to God. It has been a terrifically painful thing to watch. The days are indeed evil — but not for the reasons so often cited.
peace,
R. Abanes