Must a Joyful Noise be a Beautiful One?
I daresay I am probably going to call down the wrath of the Sanhedrin of Laodicea for bringing this up, but the recent conversation about the anonymous version of “O Holy Night” raised some interesting points. I have to say I was rather surprised at the number of professing Christians who got their knickers in a twist, treating a song of questionable origin that was not sung for the purpose of dishonoring God as if it were holy writ being spat upon. Bizarre.
Perhaps one of the basic questions to come out of this is “Must a joyful noise be a beautiful one?” One of the Laodicean commenters wrote:
God is a God of order, and if He has not given the talent to sing, you should not try to sing.
To which I wondered where this view was scripturally supported (aside from the book of II Opinions). Of all the replies to this gentleman and a number of other Schleuterites, probably the best one was given by Julie:
I don’t get how this is seen as mocking the subject matter of the song, but rather, the singer either mocking himself or allowing his non-ability to be mocked.
If we’re going to open that little can of worms, fine.
Is every bad piece of Christian music a mockery? Every flawed, non-professional grade, fully orchestrated effort of music by a Christian a mockery of the Creator who perhaps didn’t bother to install a tuner on the voice box? What’s our little litmus test here, as to what’s “good enough†of a performance to be considered honoring, and what’s a mockery with demons cackling and shame following? Is it a matter of the heart? Can we determine that matter of heart, via MP3 playback, if this was a serious effort or not? Can we not all say we know some terrible singers who don’t care and just sing out joyfully and full-bore?
I know that Ingrid prides her husband for his classically trained trumpet efforts and all the work he’s put into it and how valuable all of this work and mastery is to God, as if that somehow makes it more pleasing an aroma as an offering to God. Cain* had some fine, lovely vegetables, I heard. Big whoop. I’ve yet to find a verse that delineates the definition of singing and praising and worshiping and anything else to only those who have mastered some musical instrument or skill or are determined by the human audience without a direct line to the heart and mind as to what they are thinking and feeling as they are making that music.
So, since we do not know the story behind this, and it makes us laugh because it sounds terrible but not because we enjoy some bizarre assumption of mockery, we are with cackling demons.
That’s just stupid.
Amen, Julie.
But perhaps we should look at some REAL examples and ask - must a joyful noise be a beautiful one? If it is not, is it ever acceptable to laugh?
Example #1: One of the commenters posted a link to the video below with the question “what do you do with this?”
I have to say, I was uncomfortable from the vast array of emotions this brought up. I felt embarrassed for the gentleman, imagining myself in his place. I felt moved because his heart seemed to be into the singing much more than a lot of Sunday morning pew-riders I’ve known over the years. I chuckled, because some of the added words were indeed humorous. I felt sheepishly guilty for chuckling. I felt myself agreeing a bit with the “amen”s in the congregation. The whole gamut. But in all of that, I could not even fathom agreeing with Ingrid’s lackey’s comment above.
Examples #2+: A music minister (the same one that gave me O Holy Night) gave me a disc he had received from a friend at a Christian recording studio. On that disc were a number of songs that had been submitted as ‘demos’ for consideration for publication. As such, the singers had to know (you would think) that their work would have to be critiqued. A number of them are hilarious from a “what were they thinking?” standpoint, but at the same time, I would say that a number of them were joyful (though poor quality as determined by human beings - even those that have never heard music before) noises to the Lord.
- “Kill me, Kill me, Kill me” - You must listen through to the chorus
- Hot Summer Nights - Really, what was he thinking, submitting this to a CHRISTIAN label?
- I Am a Man - Yup
- That’s Peculiar - And again, Yup
- Oh Lord (with a LONG introduction from the artist) - You know the drill…
- O Nightingale - O, indeed, I believe my ears are still bleeding
- Our God is an Awesome God - I loved Rich Mullins, and I’m so glad he never heard this
- We Are the Champions (of God) - Freddy Mercury, eat your heart out. No - really…
- His Eye is on the Sparrow - I really had to wonder if they played this recording for any of their friends. If so, with friends like those…
- Chock Full of Love - the first, and probably last, time you’ll ever hear the word “chock” in a song. The tune, itself, may end up playing on your ‘head radio’, so proceed with caution!
- Satan, You Lost, Lost, Lost - Think “first week of American Idol”
- Soul Saved Tonight - there are a plethora of reasons that secular songs should not be completely rewritten for Christian audiences. This is one of them. If you ever want to listen to your Eagles’ albums again with untarnished nostalgia, do not listen to this. Seriously. I warned you…
- Amazing Grace - If you were going to submit a demo tape to a record company, wouldn’t you want to remember the words? And if you didn’t remember them, wouldn’t you want to record them over until you got them right? Hm?
- We Want to Fish For Men - I am guessing this is part of a larger work. I hope I’m wrong.
- God Give the Devil the Measles - This is actually a quality song with cheesy lyrics. I once put together a video of this with a friend and some staff members during break time as a way to entertain some campers (and demonstrate some video techniques). Here is that monstrosity (yes, that’s me with the guitar at the beginning, my wife popping out of the trailer, and my son with the painted stomach.)
- Holy Jerusalem - Can anyone explain to me what happened here?
- Come Back America - scary stuff
- Safe Sex Rap - some words you never thought you’d hear in a Christian song (and not because they’re naughty)
- Thank You, God - Really weirdness
- Jesus is About to Rap This Up (Bonus Track) - Something to make dispensationalism just a little bit more wacky…
There were a few more, but I couldn’t find them online (and I don’t have the server space to host them), so you’ll just have to trust me that they’re more of the same.
What do y’all think? (NOTE: If you are going to be critical, please read this article first and couch your criticism/accusation as either an “Absolute”, a “Conviction” or a “Preference”. If you don’t do this, I probably won’t take you all that seriously, because you really are just wanting to self-righteously spout off and not dialog. If that’s what you’re looking for, start a blog and ask Ingrid for advice on your writing.)
December 8th, 2007 at 8:02 am
There is a big big difference between singing from your heart to the Lord and leading in music, and when someone sings solos or “specials”, they are assuming a leadership type role. We all have different gifts. I know of many people who know scripture and some are good orators, but they are not preachers and should not act as if they are, no matter how much they personally would like to.
I was given the awful task once of telling a sweet brother, who volunteered to lead music in a church whose music leader had resigned, that leading music was not his calling. His heart was sincere and his intentions were noble, but he was not gifted for that position.
Sadly, many churches think that if anyone just has the want-to, they should be allowed to assume the pulpit or platform and sing or preach, only for it to wind up being a disruption, quenching the service.
I recall hearing the evangelist David Ring sing Victory in Jesus. David has cerebral palsy and with that has a definite speech problem. But oh when you hear him recite the words, it moves your heart. But in David’s case, he is not a singer, and he knows it.
Every man has got to know his limitations. Leading music should not be a time for entertainment, mockery or being flippant. And those who are pastors and leaders should have the courageous and commitment to lovingly tell some people, no.
December 8th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Oh, one more point…in the case of some of the examples you listed here Chris, no probably should be said mutiple times, and perhaps with great volume….in line with Ephesians 4:15 of course.
December 8th, 2007 at 8:31 am
I agree generally, Mike, but some churches have all night sing nights where even the untalented can sing a solo for Christ. I have heard many like that man lift his voice in praise to the Lord, albeit out of tune.
On the other side of the coin we make too much of human talent and not enough of Spiritual commitment. I have listened to beautiful music being made by someone who is prideful of their talent and less than surrendered in their spiritual walk. So there is a balance.
December 8th, 2007 at 9:04 am
I agree to a point too, Mike. But what about churches that don’t have much of a talent pool to pick from? Also they might not have the funds to hire a quailified leader?
December 8th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Mike,
I wholeheartedly agree with you as it pertains to leading congregational singing, and I hadn’t even thought about the ’speaking’ aspect with “special music”. I think some of the worst theology I’ve heard has come in spoken introductions to SM.
At some point, you reach a level of snobbery (which was, I believe, was apparent in the quoted comment in the OP). Certainly there is a level of quality needed to lead music - or to be awarded a recording contract. But that is not a ‘honoring God’ issue - it is “an ability to lead” issue, as you identified. When you’re leading worship, an ability to put the attention and focus on the Father is key.
As for the video, I don’t have any context to it, but I have known a few folks who, because of mental illness, were known to walk up on stage during a worship service. I don’t remember any of them actually making it to the mike (as may have been the case in the video), though I would never have called it ‘dishonoring’ to God if they did…
December 8th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Scotty,
I have been there before, as well. And what do you do when, in that situation, the preaching pastor taps a family member near the bottom of the talent pool to lead?
In our case, the rest of us just sang louder.
December 8th, 2007 at 9:17 am
I can agree with that Rick. I have said at time that in my case it’s more of making a joyful racket. But ultimately, is the Lord being glorified and honored? One more example and then I will hush….I was at a church service, where my family attended at the time, and my wife and I were in the fellowship hall getting a drink of water. We heard the music starting in the service and I immediately thought I recognized the tune of the intro. As we made our way to the auditorium, the soloist began to sing….
Id gladly walk across the desert
With no shoes upon my feet
To share with you the last bite
Of bread I had to eat
I would swim out to save you
In your sea of broken dreams
When all your hopes are sinkin
Let me show you what love means
(chorus)
Love can build a bridge
Between your heart and mine
Love can build a bridge
Dont you think its time?
Dont you think its time?
Remember this one? Its a song recorded by the Judds and it was definitely not a “Christian song”. Although the young girl singing the solo did a fair job vocally, that song was entirely inappropriate for a worship service. Whats worse, there were people in the congregation with hands in the air, eyes closed and swaying to the music.
More than the singing and the congregation, I had a bigger concern over the leadership of the church who did not show greater discernment and responsibility in that particular situation.
BTW, here a link to David Ring singing Victory in Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_04Ey704MY
December 8th, 2007 at 9:28 am
I have heard David Ring sing that in person, very moving. I am against any secular music in church which INCLUDES the national anthem or any other patriotic songs. The sad part is you could play Ozzy Ozbourne in church and many people would recognize the song and some would love it.
Babylon anyone?
December 8th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Sometimes I think we get hung up on what seems to be, or not be, someone’s “gift.” There is an aspect of obedience, and more than once we have had a person lead music (or some other function in church) who I would say wasn’t gifted, possibly weren’t even looking forward to it, but really felt they were supposed to do this as a matter of God asking them.
The “it’s not my gift/it’s not her gift” crutch can end up being an excuse, one I hear very much in my small church when I try to find people to sub for me on the piano or teach Sunday School. Sometimes it isn’t about the gift — it’s about obedience. Small churches such as mine aren’t likely going to have a gifted person for every role, and we either end up having one or two people doing everything because “they’re gifted” or people need to trust God to help them meet the needs of the position.
The giftedness — where does it list such “gifts” in regards to music, in the Bible? I know it talks about gifts like teaching, etc., but some of these other things…where does it say that? Where does it support the idea that if the area (of, say, music) is not your “gift” you should not do it?
No. That sounds so good, and for the people who are glory-hogs and want attention and to be involved in everything, perhaps it’s a relief to rely on that. However, no. People are generally more willing to over-know their limitations and be unwilling to step out and do something in an act of faith. In my experiences, people make lists of limitations, of “non-gifts”, and use that as reasons why they can’t/won’t do something God asks, why they won’t do something to help others.
This is a tricky issue, when we start defining who can and cannot or should and should not do something.
I would have said, two years ago, the my limitation was I could not speak in front of people. I ended up having to teach, kicking and screaming, and oh my, I found I could speak in front of people (after a few rough months) after all. I never would have thought that my “gifting” or anything but a limitation unless I had done it and stuck it out, and had people let me stick it out, from the beginning.
December 8th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Amen, Julie, you stole my thunder, that’s where I was headed! Steal away!!
December 8th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Look, the “know your limitations” thing — that really gets me. If there’s anything I’ve seen God consistently do in my life and the lives of those who dare to obey Him, it’s that he blasts through our human-understanding of limitations as if they were paper.
How can I, a human, possibly really know my limitations? How can I know what God is doing, preparing me for, wanting to do, if I say “oh, I know my limitations. I can’t do that.”?
I will say right here that I can’t sing, but there have been times when we’ve had church and no one to lead except at the last minute where it looked like I might have to lead — horrifying! But if God wanted it, I would struggle through and do the best I could.
I would say “Forget about knowing your limitations. Your understanding of these supposed limitations is limiting your obedience to God.” As far as I’m concerned, “with God, all things are possible.” This life is nothing about knowing my human limitations, because the God I serve is unlimited. All things are possible, even leading the singing.
It is a strange Christian view to go through life seeing how “a God of order” limits people and puts them in their place that they will not be allowed from, but I think many conversations I’ve had here, from the place of women in church, et. al., is about throwing of limitations and letting God work.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Julie,
Good points.
First of all our major limitation is ourselves, and the scripture is quoted is dead on for that. It is only through God that things are possible. But are we to say that everyone can do “anything”, if only they believe they can or really really want to do it? It is scriptural to say that God gives everyone different gifts, and we each have our place in ministry. We must be certain however that what we have the desire to do is within God’s will, and this and the limitations or gifts, are discovered through prayer and God’s Word.
I am not called and gifted to pastor for example. But I know many who God has called and gifted to be pastors and He blesses that.
Regardless of whether a person has the ability, voice, gift, talent or however we would describe it, we must also take to heart not to hurt someone and lovingly guide them to realize their place in service and to encourage them to fulfill the ministry God has called them to.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:19 am
There are some issues of wisdom. A person who is not good with finances should not be the treasurer and a sloppy person should not be the custodian. So a person who cannot hold a tune would not be a candidate for a solo regular.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:24 am
From the pews, I try to sing but my wife always wispers in my ear and says, “honey, please don’t, I’m trying to worship.” So now I just move my lips and pretend I am making a joyful noise to the Lord.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:25 am
That seems to be a pretty good response, Mike, but I do know that, when it comes to applying these things to real life, the concept of “gifting” and “limitations” ends up being methods of control, excuses, or making sure people are in “their place.”
I am a member of an Assembly of God church, and I know one thing that I appreciate about it, and others like it, is the same thing that drives other denominations nuts: people are encouraged to let God work in their life however he wants to.
The general reaction to this from other Christians is lists of verse delineating a God of order (see above, in the post), lists of preachers gone bad, etc. as proof that this “lack of control” is a problem. But I say, some of the deadness and sourness I see in other believers who strictly adhere to rigid sets of limitations and tight definitions of “gifting” may not be as wildly explosive as the charismatic failures, but there nonetheless.
The fine line is, as always, to not stop the moving of God, but not get carried away and move beyond it. In this, applying it to the topic at hand, I would say that one group is in danger of humanly telling people that they cannot obey God for “these Biblical reasons” while the other is in danger of saying “by all means, go up there and make a fool of yourself and get some glory!”
I wrote more about it here
I don’t want to get into some back-and-forth, but I just want to say that, yet again, we humans tend to go to extremes in either throwing off boundaries or building them up too high.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Couple of last things before I run out on errands…
What is scriptural? and What glorifies God. They obviously, or should, go hand in hand.
Darren, remember what R.C. Sproul said at the conference when asked who were the two people that molded his life the most….the Holy Spirit and Mrs. Sproul
December 8th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Music has become a screwy thing in the church. It has pretty much bnecome idolized as the great form of “worship”. The fact that “music” and “worship” are synonyms in the church have crippled us as a spiritual force in the world. We HAVE to have music on a Sunday morning, or we are unable to “worship”.
We recently had people write poems during their quiet times and submit them by Saturday night. The next Sunday we recited these poems with scripture all throughout the music slot. We had so many mixed emotions on it. Some loved it and others hated it. One lady told me that she missed worshiping her God, and was going to have to go home and listen to a “worship” CD to get through the week.
So, with this type of idolization in the church, we always MUST have music, even if the person leading has NO gifting for it. We are willing to embarrass someone, so we can “worship”. Mike’s example of the pulpit is great.
By the way… it is this same idolization of music that causes people to need one style of music to “worship” God. People that can ONLY worship to hymns of 1980s maranatha choruses are usually saying that the music brings up good feelings from their past (giving them war fuzzies all over) and thus allows them to worship. My generation is not allowed to write our own anthems of worship in our musical genres because they don’t get the nostalgic feelings with our music , and thus cannot be worship.
December 8th, 2007 at 11:03 am
This is an excellent point. I was talking about a book I was reading with a friend. The author talks about the worship service as the entire service — music, prayer, teaching, fellowship — and so I was using the word in that way. My friend kept interrupting me with things like “You’re talking about doing all this during the music?” or “Wouldn’t that mean an awful long time to sing?” or such things.
When did worship become music only? When did we segment our Christian lives so worship of God was only singing? That would explain a lot of the idolization of worship music, leaders, etc., and why those positions can attract “glory hogs.” If we think the music is the only way we officially worship, no wonder the music issue becomes so incredibly contentious.
That is a key issue you brought up, Nathan. It would be good to explore that sometime…
December 8th, 2007 at 11:07 am
Julie,
I think it is important to know what you are really gifted at doing, and also knowing what you are really bad at. That is part of good self leadership (and I think that is what Mike was saying). I consult with leaders and pastors all the time who have been spinning their wheels to make a church happen. When I ask people around them what the guy does, and what he is good at, I usually get two very different answers. In one church, the pastor moved to the church accountant position, they moved a deaon to the teaching role, and the church began to flourish. A year later, the pastor said that he was the strongest and happiest he had ever been doing accounting.
I think we can be used in our deficiencies, but when we live in our strengths, God is most glorified. In cases like yours with the teaching, I don’t think that God miraculously gave you the gift of teaching. I think that you had a false awareness of your strengths and weaknesses, and found your strength. So, when people know their “limitations” and their strengths (and it is accurate), they can lie out the life that God has planned for them.
BTW… that is the crux of that Mandela / New Age Guru quote that Ken keeps harping on.
December 8th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Nathan,
What you have said about music and worship is good. Many Christians go to church on sunday, to worship, and equate ‘worship’ with singing along with the band/choir/hymnals and raising their hands. Many I’ve met think this is the only way to worship. We forget that when we spend time with God personally, or in groups of fellowship, or in times of study, or when we help someone in the name of Christ, all of these things constitute obedience and love for God, which is a considerable form of worship!
We can’t pigeon-hole our perceptions on this matter, worship happens 90% more outside of the church building than inside, and so many people don’t realize this.
Julie and Nathan, your comments were really edifying, thanks.
Joe
December 8th, 2007 at 11:48 am
As one that has people submit song to me for airplay I will say at times it is hard to tell that person that they are just awful… I mean it is truthful.
Now, I have had to search and pray and and.. somehow I listen again and find one song that is passable.
It is hard though to tell someone, especially a group that has worked really hard, that their music is just bad… even if they have “prayerfully offered this to our Lord and Savior and have been lead by Him in every song”…
Kindness is the best answer… oh and sometimes just ignoring the email that was submitted…
iggy
December 8th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Oh my favorite one was “we want to fish for men” it had that Veggietale thing going for it.
iggy
December 8th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
I’m not sure I fully agree. To some extent…yes, but…
As part of the paradox of Christian life, our weaknesses show God’s strength. When we are “in our strengths” we show “our” strengths; it is easy to wrest it out of God’s hand and rely upon our talent. When we are in our weaknesses, then God is glorified. It is obviously him doing the work.
Strong teachers, with gifted speaking ability, can easily rely on their own strengths to impress or instruct. Those not gifted must absolutely rely upon God to do any work out of their shambles. While it is easier to suffer through an teacher with no innate gifting than a painfully off-tune song, the same applies.
I find that God is glorified in our weaknesses, not our strengths. Because then, there is no question that the good comes from God, not my natural ability to make things come together.
(I have a feeling I’m not making what I’m trying to say clearly, because the responses I’m getting are all very good but are touching on a slightly different level than my intent. Is what I’m saying clear at all? Or do I need to reword it somehow, find a different analogy?)
December 8th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
I have heard from several reliable sources that at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, professional musicians who are not professing believers perform on stage on a regular basis. The church knowingly does this, I have been told.
This is a verifiable fact. If this isn’t true, I would like to know, but I heard this while I attended GCC back in the late 80’s and early 90’s, and I heard this to be still true recently.
If this is true, then I don’t know where to begin here.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Give me a mediocre drummer, a slightly adequate keyboard player, a sincere bass player, and four singers who can generally hold a tune, and let them be genuine, commited Christians who love Jesus, witness and pray, and have the joy of the Lord and you can have all the complexities of gathering great talent, I will worship with them.
We can get overly complex and miss the spirit of the heart. Man looks on the outward appearance but God ponders the heart.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
I think I understand what you are saying, but am not too sure if I agree.
you said “I find that God is glorified in our weaknesses, not our strengths. Because then, there is no question that the good comes from God, not my natural ability to make things come together.”
If that is the case, then we should not minister in our strenghts, but our weaknesses. You should sing, I should do finances, ODMs should write blogs
I think that God has given us each unique talents and gifts, not so that we can shrink down from them, but to use them to show the world how Great HE is. Preachers should preach, teahcer should teachers, prophets should prophesy, painters should paint, and singers should sing.
I think that church has actually crippled itself by not living in its strengths. Everyone is so worried that they will come off prideful or self-reliant. Because of that, we always produce medicore music, teaching curriculum, schools, etc. In actuallity, if everyone “worshiped” God with the gift they are givem we would be an unstoppable force in the world.
It sounds like you are talking about character more than strength, Julie. You are talking about people who live out their strengths and then revel in their own greatness. That is why the church should be focusing much more on character than talent. Talent naturally raises to the top… CHARACTER is developed.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I offer two passages for consideration:
2 Corinthians 12:9: He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.
1 Corinthians 1:27: but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; 28 and God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are: 29 that no flesh should boast before God.
December 8th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Why is music in churches such a big deal? Church music has to be the most argued over issue I’ve heard. Some people seem to think church musicians must be at the level of a recording artist to be able to play in church. Why is this? Are we afraid we’ll hurt the Lord’s ears? Or is it even the Lord we are thinking about? Are we just afraid that our own ears will get hurt?
My church has almost no musical talent. There are just 2 musicians, me on piano and another person on guitar. (And I don’t think I’d call myself talented, just skilled, lol.) I’ve taken voice lessons, but none of us singers are seasoned, classically trained vocalists. No one in the congregation really cares. They’re just happy we’re willing to do it. Isn’t that all that matters? That we have a heart for God and are willing to serve Him in a way that no one else in the church can? Sometimes talent just doesn’t even matter when it comes to worship.
And I agree with what Julie and others said about real worship. I can worship God helping out in a nursing home just as well as I can singing. In fact, we should be worshiping God all day long, not just Sunday morning.
December 8th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
You are correct merry. Give me hearts over talent.
December 8th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Romans 12:1-2 and John 4:21-24 tell us what worship is, and how we work it out through our lives. It’s 24/7.
Music and the “fine arts” happen to be very powerful expressions of our worship.
There is a “talented†Mohican brother, Bill Miller, who sings this couplet in the song “Father”
“Daily I walk in your temple,
Singing to all who will hear it”
The man knows worship, and what the Bible says re: the restoration of David’s tent of worship.It’s not a man made building. Amos 9:10-12; Acts 15:13-18
Music, or any of the arts, done with excellence, work to help the saints express their worship. We all worship. That has nothing to do with the musical talent.
In the “secular world” would any of you pay for a cd or to see a movie,that looked and sounded like your “uncle Bud” did it?
As for the “heart over talent issue.”
The Body of Christ, which is literally Christ’s body, not a metaphor, is run by the Head. It is a theocracy, not a democracy.
1 Cor 12:
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. 12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
Romans 12:
4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them:……..
Paul’s point is not to give us a comprehensive list of gifts. He is showing us the fact that it is God who gives talents, gifts and callings as He wills, and for His purposes. We are all weak no matter how talented, so let His strength be made perfect in our weakness.
That does not mean He is going to give Pavarotti’s voice to someone who can’t carry a tune in a bucket. God help us!
Let Him be manifested in each one of us as we are called.
1 Samuel 15:
22And Samuel said,
“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
John 4:
23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The Lord will only accept obedient hearts, not our good intentions.
December 8th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Chris - I think I agreed with everything but I could not discern your core thought as it pertains to the entire comment thread. I know you are a gifted musician and I would be interested in your opinion about, for instance, a concert quality pianist with a minimal Christian commitment or a totally commited believer who is just adequate on the keyboard.
December 8th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Rick
I am simply delineating between the uses of musical talent, or any talent for that matter; also the difference between performance and true worship. The arts are not only meant to be used in worship of Him but also for intercession, and to proclaim prophetically; not all are called into those types of ministry.
I believe God gives skill to those whom He calls to do such things.
As for the level of talent at any given time or place, that is up to the Lord also. Every church/fellowship/individual must work with all that God has given.
I would never choose talent over commitment, as commitment reflects calling.
I think we need to be careful to not have a “socialist spirit†(for lack of a better term) in our fellowships. God grants equity, not our idea of “fairnessâ€
Whatever our degree of gifting, let us all strive for excellence for the Lord. Only the saints are given such a heart.
1 Chron 15:
16David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.
Psalm 33:
2Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
3Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
December 8th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Do you remember the macraroni pictures your son or daughter brought home from school? You know, the pieces of paper with pieces of macaroni and bits of coloured wool stuck to them, with cotton ball clouds and the stick people outside the crooked house? They will never hang in a gallery, they will never be esteemed by the New York Times as “art”. But do you remember - do you remember? - how you felt when they so proudly and lovingly presented you with this, their craft-class treasure?
I kind of think it’s like that. I kind of think that’s how God feels when we sing from our heart, out of tune and off time and get the words mixed up - God feels exactly the same way about our ‘macaroni pictures’ as we do about our child’s.
But should someone who can’t carry a tune in U-Haul van be allowed to sing from the stage on Sunday morning? Well, some tact on the part of the pastor may be in order but, in the end, the questions are these: Is there a place for everyone in our church family, or isn’t there? How talented do you have to be before you’re allowed to truly be, you know, who you are?
This is a difficult concept to get our heads wrapped around but the truth is that if we really and truly value authenticity in worship, then excellence is no longer a goal worth pursuing.
No?
Then consider this… If we have a ‘testimony’ at the microphone we don’t expect the person to be a polished, professional sounding speaker. They might choke up. They might fumble the words, lose their place, get things mixed up. That’s okay - we understand. We appreciate their testimony because we know they’re speaking from the heart. But if that same person shares their heart or testimony through a song? My goodness, the production standards suddenly get very, very high. Seriously - what is that really about?
I know I’m writing an essay here but, look - when I consider my life - how many times I’ve messed up, how many times I’ve sinned, how many times I’ve taken the low road - and then consider how much God loves me in spite of it all… well, quality really isn’t at the top of God’s priority list, is it? If God really cared about ‘quality’ he wouldn’t want much to do with me. But here He is, and I’m grateful. Not that God is slovenly or a slacker - He is, in fact, perfect in and of Himself. But He also has a keen eye for what really matters and what doesn’t. Us? Not so much.
Thanks for listening.
December 8th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
” But do you remember - do you remember? - how you felt when they so proudly and lovingly presented you with this, their craft-class treasure? ”
Yes, I spanked him.
December 8th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
First we find out that Chris P goes to a purpose driven church and now he sounds like an emergent.
They’re gonna take his watchdoggie card away.
December 8th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
I used to “lead worship” in church (I use inverted commas because it’s a strange matter to me) and I came in thinking one thing, and out another. I can’t sing very well, but play guitar well and I lead with the guitar and voice. For some reason, and I don’t understand, everyone liked it!
The conclusion I came to in the end is that holding a tune and remembering lyrics (I used to make them up on a regular basis when I forgot) is secondary to having a spirit of worship inside. That means having a life with God outside of Sunday night and honouring the Lord at all times. I also think that to be a worship leader you need to be a teacher as well, otherwise your words in song are meaningless and you may say wrong things, or choose bad songs.
Now conversely, this all changes when the congregation size grows. Suddenly you need to sing well or it doesn’t work, you need to play well, or people don’t come back, it needs to be rehursed, coriagraphed (sp?) ordered etc. My last church was like that (I haven’t attended formal church for a while now) and the size changes the dynamic. So I agree that in a large church you HAVE to sing well, play well and be a professional, so the question becomes, “is it right?”
December 8th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
This is territory where language and definitions are important, because I think I’m interpreting something differently, here.
I worry when I start hearing comments like that. It brings to mind personality tests, and things that corporate America uses to create successful business, not things that are actually Biblical.
No doubt, God gives gifts and talents. I am not denying that.
Let’s put it like this: I am a decent piano player. People often tell me after church that I am “so talented” which kind of annoys me. Obviously, the crucial point is my own heart and not how people react or even what they’re really trying to say when they tell me that — perhaps that’s just a “thanks for playing.” But, the use of the talent can get in the way and it is easy for us, in our flesh, to forget why we are there and instead think “wow, he/she is a good musician.” Now, I can think of a very specific moment when a young girl got up to play at church and it went very badly but — and I can’t explain it — her song really touched me and a few others. I have no doubt it was God. I do not think it her talent or human ability. In this way, God was so strong, so present, even in her obvious weakness, that he seemed even stronger.
I’m not sure that it is because we are ashamed to use our talents for fear of pride that we produce mediocre music, etc. I think there are greater issues at work here, in our (I agree) deficient arts. Schaeffer, Rookmaker, et. al. have written about the Evangelical mind and how we have treated the arts and artisans and what it has done to our own church culture. I think those issues apply more to what you’re saying than people not living in strengths. I would even further postulate that we end up with mediocre arts/music/writing because people are so living in their strengths that they continue on in “their” strength and succumb to meeting market demands, outside pressures, and what is seen as acceptable for what has now become their “product” rather than worship. The mediocrity in arts, etc. would be a whole other post in itself.
Nathan, I wonder if, since you are coming from a larger church, this is going to be a more difficult concept to understand as I am saying it. That is not meant to be patronizing or insulting, but in a small church, fewer options and choices in all areas lead to a very direct understanding of God’s strength and power keeping the church going miraculously, and not a reliance upon large budgets, plenty of warm bodies, and a sufficient talent pool that makes sure we are all living in our strengths.
Chris P., I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. The whole thing about not listening to Uncle Bud’s bad CD and the quality of our music and all that — what are you saying? I get the impression you’re trying to say that I’m for sloppiness and haphazardness when approaching God, when I am not saying that at all. I am for openness and not the facade of perfection. We can approach God, now, and do not have a curtain that prevents us from his presence. The last thing I want is a “curtain” of requirements, i.e. good enough, the right gift, the correct amount of talent, etc.
December 8th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
I go to a purpose driven church???
I am emergent???
Where do you get this?
I am on staff at an AG church that is the least AG of any that I know.
We are biblcal in both orthodoxy and praxis.
I have never seen or used myself any purpose driven methods or theology.
December 8th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I am not accusing anyone of sloppiness in their efforts.
I am saying that there is a difference beteween the corporate or individual worship of the saints, which is incense in the nostrils of the most high, and the call to lead music, write music teach on worship etc. This also applies to any of the creative arts.
I am afraid Beethoven’s 9th is “macaroni art” to the Lord.
the primary “requirements” are, that you are a true member of the body of Christ and that He has called and equipped you to do what you are doing, whatever ministry that might be.
December 8th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Chris P,
Its been pointed out before that the vision statement of your church is rather, well, Warrenesque:
And this last post or two you’ve made has been rather McManus-esque, with a dash of Bell thrown in to season. Add to it that the vision statement on your worship center website uses emergent buzzwords like “missional” and its not looking like you’re going to be voted Watchdoggie of the Year by any watchdoggies out there.
December 8th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
“The least AG of any that I know. We are biblical…”
Hmmm.
I’m A/G, neither the least nor the most. No qualifier.
Please don’t use the word “accusing”, Chris P. For once — just once — just take me at my word when I say I merely don’t understand you, though I do not feel accused. There is no “accusing” going on, OK? I didn’t understand what you were trying to say earlier, is all.
OK. I agree. Sounds good.
Now. Let me mull on this without accusing or even directly responding to you, Chris P., beyond taking your idea and furthering it, OK?
Called? Is that a permanent calling? Could it also be a momentary calling to get up and do something right now? Could it be like Samuel, a momentary calling to wake up, all as part of a greater calling?
Sometimes I think we get wrapped up in finding the “bigger” callings that the smaller “wake up” callings get missed. Perhaps I’m not called to be a singer, but there might be a time or two I am called to get up and sing (as bad as that would be for those listening).
And then…
Equipped? Equipped as he sees fit, or as we see fit?
I think of Joni Erickson Tada, who can’t use her hands. She is obviously equipped with the talent of drawing — she is a phenomenal artist — and uses her mouth, but she would seem lacking in what we would traditionally, humanly, think necessary: use of her hands.
If a singer is singing but seems to not have be equipped with the obvious talent of carrying a tune, who are we to say that God has not equipped him, anyway, to do what he has called the singer to do in that moment? Do we really know what a person needs to be equipped with in the arts to properly worship God?
I think we don’t understand what equipped means, and have our own definitions of what it takes. Therein is the crux of what I am trying to say: God equips us for what he asks us to do, whether or not we happen to exhibit all of the necessary equipment that are on human lists of being qualified. What might seem to be me, dwelling in weakness, might actually be me, fully equipped by God to do what he called me to do, even if it seems otherwise by man.
December 8th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
I contend that the ecm and Warren ripped us off.
:0
I don’t care for Warren or any of the mega moguls.
I will always be a “watchman” Habbakuk 2:1
December 8th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
The difference is, Julie, Joni has overcome her handicap and she CAN DRAW. God does not call people to do what they haven’t been equipped to do. Sometimes it doesn’t look like they have the tools to us and it turns out they do.
But if a person cannot carry a tune they can be a member of a choir but they are not called to lead music.
December 8th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Allow me to qualify:
We do not stress such pentecostal “distinctives” of tongues and such as primary.
Though I am completely non-cessationist, as well as is our church, we are more than a little bit reformed in our theology. I am also not a pre-trib/”dispy” either.
Most of the Ag churches around here are stuck in the “Texas brush arbor” days.
I have never been a member in an ag church until I moved here six years ago, and I am here soley in obedience to the Lord.
As for Samuel’s “waking up”, that is an action taken in response to the call, as is every action thereafter.
Ms Tada would be an artist whether or not she had the use of all her limbs. The fact that ahe doesn’t fits right in to Paul’s thorn in the flesh. She had to have been foreknown to be what she is by the Lord. She is equipped. I am not looking only at the externals. I couldn’t play or write music if the Lord hadn’t given i to me to do so. The reality of it is we really have no choice in what we are called to do.
I suppose that what I am really saying is that we don’t have to make qualifciers on behalf of the Lord to make Him look good, or ourselves feel better about Him and His sovreign will.
All is for God’s glory. We are created for Hs glory.
Who are we to argue with potter?
December 8th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Sorry about the typos. I got in a hurry
December 8th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Rick Frueh - At least you didn’t throat-punch him. Thank goodness for sensitivity training. We’re making progress!
December 8th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Hey,
Chris P, I did not know you were of the Arminian persuasion… I was AG for many years and at age 21 was moving in the fast track toward ordination…
So how does it feel to be a “man-loving, semi pelagian”?
That is what Ken calls you…
Yep, just like me… and you are also not saved like Wesley and Finny! LOL!
Welcome to the Ken hates you club…
iggy
December 8th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
At this point, I give up. I can’t see how I didn’t say that. I would swear I said that, what you said in the last sentence.
It seems I can’t use analogies effectively because now you are telling me that Joni overcame her “handicap” (i.e. lack of proper equipping) and my point was that her handicap, as we SEE IT WITH OUR HUMAN EYES (i.e. “Look, she can’t use her hands.”) turned out not to be a handicap after all, for what God intended. That God had equipped her in ways we would not humanly expect.
Again. I give up. You seem to have just negated your own point that you (and I) just made about Joni.
There’s no point in me talking about this further. Has anything I’ve said made one iota of sense? Seriously — am I writing badly? Because I feel like I’m repeating myself.
Someone. Anyone. Is anything I’m saying being understood? Or am I making no sense at all?
December 8th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Exactly. Despite apparent outward appearances, Joni is fully equipped.
That is what I tried to say. As an analogy. To further say: what seems to be an ill-equipped person is not always so in God’s plan.
I, too, was not looking at externals. That was also my point. Internals. The externals are what we see; the internal is where God does the equipping.
I have no idea what the “Texas brush arbor” days are so…I can’t respond. I’ll have to look that up.
December 8th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
If that is what you meant I apologize. My point about allowing a willing heart to be in the choir (most have them) is to extend grace, not negate my own point. Overall we must be lead of the Spirit and not American Idol tryouts.
December 8th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
iggy
I am not of the arminian persuasion. If I close my eyes and count to three will you be there when I open them?
I will tell Ken that he can hate me when I email him later.
Julie,
What I mean about the other ag churches here is they are into the old time religion thing. The methods they have employed on the Navajo Nation fo the last 50 years haven’t worked very well. We are definitely not from the bible belt.
I believe that we are in agreement on the rest.
December 9th, 2007 at 12:03 am
Chris P,
Are not going to a AG church.. read their bylaws… they are Arminian based as can be! They claim their start on Azuza street revival… with tongues…
I left the AG when I began to learn about grace and realized I could not with good conscience serve that denomination if I believed in eternal security. They would not ordain me for saying I believed someone could not lose their salvation…
SO, you go to a Arminian based church, so you support “free will” which according to Ken Silva, makes you a man loving semi pelagian… with much more facts to back that up that when he called me one! LOL!
Now, we can argue over this, but just go read you bylaws then get back to me. = )
So again, do not lie, if you go to that kind of church and work for them then you support their doctrine… right? If not you are lying to them and to yourself.
iggy
Oh heck this is so much fun… here are some of the 16 fundamental beliefs…
#4 WE BELIEVE…though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.
#8 WE BELIEVE… The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.
On the “security of the believer”…
So, if one can lose salvation, they must have earned themselves as one cannot receive it as a free gift then lose the gift…
So you either follow the bylaws or the bible…
(Sorry to you that also go to the AG, I am not against the AG I have many great friends who serve in it and we get along great and love one another… this is to show the difference between Ken and Chris P and that Ken if he is honest must toss Chris P into the same pile as Rob Bell!)
iggy
December 9th, 2007 at 4:07 am
Oh Chris P,
John MacArthur thinks you are a heretic also… remember his book Charismatic Chaos?
He states that all “charismatics” are not in line with scripture and are apostate… so now you are judged and condmened also with me by Johnny Mac! So welcome to the club!
LOL!
iggy
December 9th, 2007 at 8:46 am
I can’t believe that no one has stated the obvious answer to the question posed by the post title!!!
Not only must it be beautiful, but it also must be caucasian (preferably of Western European origin) or else someone might shake their fanny.
For those unfamiliar with what I’m referring to — this is in NO WAY my opinion — I’m just paraphrasing Ingrid.
December 9th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
actually, I think Chris P has been very civil on this thread.
I liked hearing his thoughts on worship…
Let’s not goad unnecessarily…
He didn’t come here on blast this time.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
All goading aside, there is a moral here.
When you continually throw babies out with the bathwater (a hallmark of ODMs), one of those times, the baby will be yours.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
nc,
This is not “goading” in the sense that he is not being civil here… I appreciate that… I am poking a little as I find it hilarious that he can condemn others yet he himself is just another log on the fire of Ken Silva’s hell bound accusees and cannot even see that… I hope to open his eyes to see that for all his condemnation of me, he too is condemned by the standard to the ODM’s…
I hope he will see this and confess his sin before God and man and thus thwart any more possible shame as he stands before Jesus.
I believe he is sincere… but not kind…
I am trying to be kind… and sincere… and hopefully break through his pride to bring reconciliation.
=)
iggy
December 9th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Since I was the one that origianally linked the above video, and after reading through this thread:
1) I still think the “O Holy Night” audio is hilarious. I don’t think the singer was serious. I could care less if he was or wasn’t a Christian (re: the song and his intent). The first time I heard the song–a couple of years ago–I had no doubt it was comedy, was always intended to be comedy and nothing else. It never crossed my mind that it might be [ fill in adjective ].
2) The video is disturbing. Chris L referred to it as “uncomfortable.” I have to agree. Although we don’t KNOW the circumstances, pretty much anyone with a pulse could probably put it together (or at least get pretty close). I figure:
a) They guy is not a professional singer (obvious)
b) He has probably had a rough life and now, for whatever reason/circumstance finds himself in a congregation/church setting where he has found hope and encouragement.
c) He either asked or was asked to speak about his new found hope and in the course of that testimony, felt moved to express himself via song.
d) “Amazing Grace” best describes his (and probably most of our) journey[s]. He may not know the words, but he sorta knows the title and appears to have an understanding of this “Amazing Grace.”
e) There’s more to the “Amens” at the end than we’ll ever know. The congregants have seen this guy’s journey first-hand. They know he can’t sing, but they also know he most likely has experienced God’s “Amazing Grace.”
3) It is AMAZING to me how a post about a specific topic can start off so good, and take some of the most bizarre turns in the conversation, i.e . Arminian, AG, Purpose-Driven.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:53 am
On topic for #1, I found that video good. I’ll take it at positive level and assume he is a man who is either challenged or off drugs and it is a sweet sound to behold. I’ve been in meetings before where people have given testimony and sung a woeful sound to the ears and a beautiful work of God to the heart.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:17 am
I cannot imagine why people will hyper-ventlilate over something so little.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Grace is amazing… isn’t it…
iggy =)