When Chris L. asked if I would write on this blog, I was highly reluctant. For one thing, all the writers here were male, and I was not naive enough to think that my lack of theological education would not become an issue to some of the commenters that frequent here. My response was fairly direct:
You know I don’t have a “official” theology training [...] and that most of the time you and all the other people on that site could wipe up the floor with me when it comes to things like interpretation, context, theology…
Which leads me to something that has bothered me from both writers and commenters in many posts, including the comments to two posts I previously submitted here (Are women human; The soul of wit): are we in love with “papered qualifications” in western Christianity?
Do we require external, extra qualifications before a person can be heard, or considered viable, in a discussion or an argument? If a person with a dissenting opinion or a simple question can’t offer a “very qualified”1 rebuttal, but still a valid point, is that opinion of less value or any less true? Is anything written by a less-”qualified” Christian automatically less in weight?
If we truly believe that the Bible is inspired, and that the Spirit reveals truth to us as we read it, why would a person who doesn’t have a theology-based degree, understanding of Greek, or even a full understanding of the huge lexicon of theological terms like exegete, hermeneutics, et. al. be subtly (and not so subtly) called to the carpet for lacking “sufficient” qualifications to enter the discussion? Who requires these extra qualifications, man or God? Does, or does not, the Spirit reveal to all who believe as they read the Word, or does he dole out a little extra to those with a paper framed on the wall and a masters or doctorate on the way?
Head knowledge, and an unnecessary reliance or trust upon those with papered qualifications, is a huge stumbling block to not only hearing an unusual idea or unorthodox take on a topic, but also in creating those associative barriers that lock minds in a loop. The people who heard and believed Jesus were not always the highly educated; some of the most theologically trained were the least able to hear what Jesus had to say.
Well-thought opinions, on-topic responses, and logical answers are not only reserved for those with a degree. In fact, too often the more “qualified”, the more wordy, confusing, obfuscating, and prideful a person can be. One aspect of many ODM blogs and those who put great faith in the writers is in their man-made qualifications. Is the Reverend Ken Silva any more lucid for his “qualifications”?
It is an incredible annoyance to try to make a point in a discussion only to have some supposed non-existent qualifications thrown up as a red herring, making any further comments impossible since my lack of “qualifications” will never be rectified in any meaningful sense of discussion-time.
And so ends my unlearned, art-major, lived-out-in life, lay-person-qualified, opinion. I apologize for not being able to exegete and contextually apply scripture in quality and quantity to everyone’s satisfaction. I should think in the world of hair splitters, split-infinitive correcters, and book thumpers that a fresh voice not based in the usual jargon and ways of thinking would be seen as yet another way to learn. And possibly be more “qualified.”
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1 Clearly’s comment on “The soul of wit“, December 1, 2007, 4:54 pm
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23 Comments(+Add)
I agree – yes I do – that the treasures of God’s truth are notlocked up for educated people but for humble men and women who trulyseek Christ with their whole heart. We can disagree on things, Julie, but on the issue of Bible interpretation and gleaning truth there is no Jewor Gentile, no male of female, and I know Greek and Hebrew scholars who are heretics.
Sometimes the mother who teaches her 8 year old is more profound than the stuffy windbag who is in love with his own theological doctorate. See Julie, on this I am in full agreement with your well articulated view and the Holy Spirit is no respecter of education or gender.
Sometimes education is an obstacle as well.
Julie,
I’m a firm proponent of the ministry of all believers, and that – while book knowledge and research can be of assistance, it can also be a huge hindrance in clearly seeing God. You lose the forest for all the trees.
My qualifications are that I have a heart for God and a thirst for knowing his son now, and what he was like when other people met him in the flesh. That and two survey courses at Milligan college on OT and NT studies.
I greatly appreciate your perspective, and suspect that your qualifications trump most of the ODM folks who rarely get out of the Starbucks & Seminar world and get their hands and feet dirty being the kingdom…
How many qualifications does it take to understand 1 Timothy 2:10-11? Sound familiar Rick?
Julie,
I think that many view “papered’ qualifictaion more important than God’s calling on the individual.
About 4 years ago I was doing a church plant. I looked into quite a few organizations and such and was either rejected (Acts29 rejected me for not being “Calvinist” enough). I was even asked by a few of my SBC friends to go there and had at least 3 people who would write letters of recommendation for me to be ordained through the SBC… Yet, I am openly pentecostal so I just did not see that working, (though one of my SBC friends is also pentecostal).
I did more research and after filtering through way to many “mills” settled on the organization I then became ordained through… and later was heavily attacked over as some (that were in the SBC) began an attack that I was fraudulantly ordained through an organization that was not legit.
Funny thing is it was about as accredited as Calvary Chapel…
I then became involved in the Vineyard movement about 2 years ago. Though I am still ordained in the organization that ordained me I usually do not even mention it as to me it is not that big of a deal.
I am not even sure I want to be ordained in Vineyard, though they are grooming me to do a church plant.
I know God’s calling on my life and it has little to do with man’s approval and documentation. If I mention my ordination, I usually do so jokingly…
I am still in good standing with the organization… and am in good standing in Vineyard…
In my opinion, paper means very little to one truly called of God.
Blessings,
iggy
BTW…
The organization I was ordained through is more stringent in their members than the SBC. If one writes them that the person ordained is not teaching scripture and the Jesus is the Savior, they will be put under investigation and if found guilty, their ordination will be removed…
The SBC seems to not have that stringent of accountability and seems to just about ordain anyone if they can pass their rather easy ordination process.
iggy
Being in a college town and around quite a few people with many letters after their name has made me realize that having those degrees doesn’t mean on is smarter or more knowedgeable than a mechanic who only graduated from high school. Many times I think there is a lot of truth in the adage that “those who can’t do, teach” (and its addendum, those who can’t teach, go into administration…).
I mean I’m all for learning what I can, but knowledge does puff up, so we all have to be careful. God speaks through whom He chooses, and much of the time it’s not people who have all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed.
Clearly, Was that Chris P driving your car? Once I heard the engine rev, the tires squeal I tried to duck before I heard the gun go off so I missed the driver.
Nothing like being told you are an “idiot” not those exact words but that is what they mean, oh but in Jesus name!
While certainly there are things in the Bible hard to understand (and I have training and experience and I still don’t understand), the Bible is not as hard to understand as the experts make it out to be.
Now living it…………..that’s a whole other story.
Keep at it Julie. Tell the experts to _____________ well, tell them whatever you want
It takes one: Christian, filled with God’s spirit.
The problem is in your ability to understand the word “understand.” I understand the passage differently than you. Is understanding some kind of toggle switch, Clearly?
Is it possible God reveals his word to people differently, seeing how different people are in different places in life, in different cultures, in different stages of relationship with Him, needing different things, i.e. different?
Yes. I maintain that the problem is your understanding of the word “understand.”
…I mean, unless it would make things easier for you if I were quiet and in full submission.
Would it? Are you looking for “easy”?
And so it goes. The great and predictable:
1. You’re not qualified!
2. You’re a woman!
The two-trick pony. Nice.
Julie,
If you believe the meaning of the Bible is determined by the 20th century reader’s life perspectives, you can believe that. The truth is in the text, not in life experiences we bring it.
I agree.
And not in the people who interpret it.
Hmmm. Did I say that, actually? Or did I possibly suggest that it is more like saying that since we are not “Locutus, of Borg” that we don’t all have hive-minds and may, because of our life experiences, views, age, culture — everything — understand it differently? Do you think that if you randomly pick a person from anywhere on the globe at any given time that they aren’t going to understand interpret passages differently based on how God applies his foundational truth to where they are at?
Why do you think I am suggesting that the core truth is changed when all I’m saying is that, to use an example, I couldn’t go back to the 1600’s and tell them about the space shuttle, so I’d have to try to talk to them about it in terms they would understand with whatever I could make available. I’m not changing anything, but working to make it understood to people who are not at that point yet. Don’t you think God has a few challenges trying to do the same with us? You know, that part about the glass darkly that I said to you on the other post? I was serious.
Regarding the negation of bringing the modern life into how I view the Bible, let me know when you start greeting all your brothers in Christ with a holy kiss.
A big, enthusiastic one.
On tape. Consistently.
Then I’ll listen.
We don’t really do that anymore, do we? Why is that? Something to do with a changed culture, maybe? So we interpret that as “not applying to me today.”
Dave,
How about we stop putting words in Julie’s mouth? Hm?
She wrote:
This was not about making the Bible fit the 21st century (I don’t know where you’ve been the last 6 years) reader’s perspective – it is about the Bible being as applicable now – in our increasingly post-modern culture – as it was in the first century, when it was being written to a Greco/Roman culture. Times change, God’s word (written and flesh) does not, but its application in the kingdom is ever changing to fit the needs of the kingdom.
So you can tell Julie she’s wrong because of this passage, but I guess you don’t apply this thinking to Ingrid since you link to SOL on your blog. It seems you’re only consistent when you want to be.
1. No culture determines the meaning of Scripture
2. The condition of mankind is the same since the garden.
3, Don’t worry about competing with theologians, as there are none on this blog.
4. This blog worships the intellect even more than the ecm and liberal movements.
5. If you believe that the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth
this blog will call you gnostic.
See Joe, I picked up an automatic weapon, Uzi of course.
1. Words in my mouth.
2. Sinful? Yep. Great point, not sure why you included it.
3. You’re on this blog. Just now.
4. Opinion of Chris P.
5. OK. It hasn’t happened yet, but forewarned is forearmed.
Phil,
That comment was to Rick…I have no problems with Julie posting. That’s the issue that Rick has with Ingrid criticizing heretics like Rob Bell.
Wow, Chris – what’s with the incoherent drive-bys?
1. Nobody’s claimed that here, that I know of – application to the current culture, certainly, but meaning, no (we leave that to Ken, who apparently has a direct line to God)
2. Actually, no – the condition of man changed back in 33 A.D. – certainly, this has not fully come to fruition, but we already know how it ends…
3. And…?
4. Oh please… Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. Just because Ken, Ingrid and Dwayna couldn’t pass 3rd-grade logic doesn’t mean what we “worship the intellect” when we doconstruct their nonsense…
5. Hrm? Gnosticism see only good in the spirit and evil in the material, but being led by the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with gnosticism…
Chris P,
1. No culture determines the meaning of Scripture
So why do you still live under the culture of the 1900’s? Is Darby’s version based on a 8 year old girls vision of heaven more accurate than a study of scripture and basing what one believes on what it states instead of 17th century theologians interpretation of it?
2. The condition of mankind is the same since the garden.
Actually for a time mankind was without sin in the Garden, it was after the fall and then they were cast out… the Garden remained pure, man was THEN cast outside the Garden and was curse with death because of sin… so your statement as is is technically wrong.
3, Don’t worry about competing with theologians, as there are none on this blog.
No one claims that except you who proves this as you comment here.
4. This blog worships the intellect even more than the ecm and liberal movements.
Really, you know every one’s heart… is is crowed on the throne you are shaing with Jesus?
5. If you believe that the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth
this blog will call you gnostic.
I think you need to go and study a bit of Plato and then you might see how much your own systematic theology is Christoplatonic… that makes you much more Gnostic than me! In fact as I point out the Gnostic beliefs of people like you you grow hateful and deny the truth with your contempt for it as you cling to Platonic dualism.
Be blessed,
iggy
BTW,
we are talking papered qualifications so how does this question even fit in the topic? As far as I see it has nothing to do with ordination…
iggy
I now admit that the word “papered” makes me think of dogs. Little kick dogs, with weird haircuts and annoying owners.
Wait.
That certainly ties in, doesn’t it?
Gestalt!
OOOOHHHH! That kind of papered!
Yes, I was paper as a young pup…the only thing that was bad about it was getting whacked on the nose when I dodooed on the carpet.
iggy
Julie
Thanks for this post. It has been encouraging to me, as another woman, whe reads this and other blogs, but feels intimidated to post because of my stay at home mom with my fine arts degree back ground. I thought the point of Christianity was to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul and strength, and love my neighbor as myself. Somehow, I think many have overcomplicated this.
Regarding women speaking in church. At my bible study on Friday (all women) we have been doing a Beth Moore study, and somehow it was mentioned that it was a shame that her demonimnation did not allow her to be a pastor. And then it was brought up about Paul telling women to be silent, and how wrong he was, yada, yada, yada. So, I made the following observation:
1. We had lost about 10 minutes of valuble study time on what amounted to a b—- session. Maybe a little less talk would have been more holy.
2. Beth Moore is a gifted teacher who has affected the lives of millions of people-men and women- the world over. Odds are, she would never had been able to do this tied down to ministry in one local church.
3. We can’t accuse Paul of being culturally biased, and then accuse God of not being in step with the women’s movement. I have a doctorate in music. I choose to work at home and home school my boys. You can imagine the flack I get because I am not doing what the culture around me says would give me fulfillment and wasting myself ‘just being a mom.’ Sadly, this comes from my churhc as well. I mention “God has called me to do this” and I get blank stares. Just because you are not “allowed” by men to pastor a church does not diminish your calling to teach, and it is our culture now that dictates being able to teach men/pastor a church as the epitome of sucess. To suggest that a woman who teaches the 5 year old sunday school class is somehow doing less for the kingdom than the guy in the 3 piece suit at the mega church is to miss the point of the Kingdom. I think many women strive to become pastors to prove something in our culture, just as many men shun teaching kindergarteners for similar reasons.
We are all called to be servants of God, and need to be open to his calling to what ever lofty position or humble acts of service He calls us, and others, to do. If you honestly believe God wants women to be pastors, you should pray for them. If you don’t think God wants women to be pastors, you should pray for them. Ultimately, it is between a person and God. What you, or I, or anyone else thinks will not be mentioned when we are called to account for our actions.
Julie, I find you very bright and articulate, and I enjoy your insight. Keep up the great work.