Dan Kimball talks about hell:
I started the sermon giving some examples from pop culture of how we generally portray or think about hell today – from Far Side cartoons with a red devil and pitchfork, to AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell” song and then showed a clip from an episode of Seinfeld which is the one where Puddy (Elaine’s boyfriend) becomes a “Christian” and listens to Christian music on the radio but then he emotionlessly makes comments to Elaine how she is going to hell and he isn’t. He then asks her to steal his neighbors newspaper and he says something like “you’re the one going to hell not me, so you might as well steal it”. And then she explodes and starts whacking him with the newspaper and says: “If I am going to hell, you should care that I’m going to hell.”
One of the big complaints from watchdoggies about our e/e brothers and sisters is that they don’t talk about hell enough. I’m not sure that’s true, but what is true is that when we talk about hell we need to have the proper attitude.
Kimball continues:
But if we do believe in hell, and we believe that people are created in God’s image who would then be experiencing judgment and hell – it should make us grieve, and hurt, be in great concern, care, praying, and doing whatever possible we can to be on the mission of Jesus living out and communicating the gospel to people.
Sadly, the people I see and hear talking about hell the loudest don’t seem to have this attitude. Instead, often, it comes across as an attitude of superiority.
59 Comments(+Add)
Many of them are much more concerned that you agree about who is goingto hell than care about who is goning to hell When your theology teaches that you should not care about who God wants to go to hell, then you rest comfortably with that knowledge.
Let us be honest though, we all sleep on dry pillows even while believing people are hell bound. I am glad to see Kimball not consumed with dismantling the teaching about hell but rather exposing our careless attitude about the lost. We need more of that.
Great article. Also I don’t think Christians really do that great of a job explaining what hell is. It’s separation from God. Jesus used a lot of metaphors describing hell, but I don’t think it’s a torture chamber in the physical sense. It’s a choice people make. If they don’t want to make time for God on earth, going to heaven and being in God’s presence isn’t the place for them. Hell is still a terrible place, as any place where God is not present would be. That’s why we need to get the gospel out to family, friends and basically anyone who will listen.
Tim,
Thanks for posting this. I encourage all to read the whole thing – makes me want to listen to the sermon… I assume it’s available in a podcast.
On a more pessimistic front – I suppose someone will criticize him for not advocating a literal lake of fire…
Neil
This is my greatest beef with Ken and company… they are so quick to condemn people to eternity without God and show little love to someone they deem is going to hell…
If they truly loved others, I think their pillows would be soaking wet…
I for one have been so condemned by many of the writers of CRN and I truly doubt any of them have lost sleep over me… as all I have gotten from Ken was and is mocking and the label that I am his Nemesis… that is so sad as he is not my enemy, but has publicly declared he is mine…
I wonder if these would if it were, lean over the pit of hell and taunt those souls that suffer… I wonder if they would spit on them and mock them…
I wonder more that God would allow them to do so now. I wonder that they defecate on Jesus teachings to love your enemies pray for them.
Personally I weep for those… i am not better then Ken as many days I go without thinking about those that will be lost and not be with God… yet daily I strive to love God and others and lean totally on Christ Jesus to do so.
This is the difference that I speak of between the ministry of death and condemnation that comes out of the ODM’s ministries… yet to me they are just like Tiller and Baker and all the others who seek money from poor and weak minded people to support them in their ministry of hate.
We are given the ministry of reconciliation… our debt was paid in full and we are free to come to God for salvation… that is our message and our cause… God will have his vengeance and it is His to do so in a truly just way.
Blessings,
iggy
I’ve always found it disturbing that Christians tend to have a more extensive grasp of what hell will be like, but heaven is left nebulous and untouched by them.
nc said: “heaven is left nebulous and untouched by them. ”
I’ve never come across this. I’ve known Christians to go through many in-depth studies of heaven. It’s quite interesting, too. I can’t wait!
NC,
I’ve been lead to believe that heaven is mostly hanging about on clouds playing harps.
Doesn’t the calvinistic position of being in the elect have a lot to do with this? I mean, if God preordained some to Hell then it is God’s sovergn business, right? Romans 9. I am not calvinistic, in fact I am not sure where I stand right now, but what I see in calvinism is a superior, I am chosen and you are not attitude. I have a real hard time with God making people and then preordaining them to an eternity of pain and suffering. If we chose it or reject it then fine, but a God that would make us to then make us suffer, forever?
Technically, we don’t spend eternity in heaven in the traditional sense it is usually portrayed. The closing chapters of the Book speak of a New Earth.
Does Kimball pod cast his sermons? I could not find a link.
Neil
Jeff,
I’d say the attitude being “superior, I am chosen and you are not…” is a danger of the system. Just like all systems have their dangers of abuse.
The Arminian could have a superior attitude thinking “I have chosen correctly but you…”
Neil
The promise of the gospel is life, whereas rejection of the gospel is death (as opposed to heaven and hell). I agree that we can sometimes be quite indifferent to those who have not accepted the truth of the gospel (not just any gospel though).
There is no hell of eternal torment and screaming, but simply death to those who do not make it into the kingdom at the return of Jesus Christ. When Jesus returns to establish His kingdom upon this Earth those that have obeyed the gospel will be welcomed in, but those who rejected it (even if they prfessed Christ like those in Matt 7:21) will be cast out. That is the greatest punishment and justice imagineable.
But I think you can be unfair when you lump everyone into the same group of being “indifferent, careless” individuals. I would suggest that from my reading of certain blogs that the issue is largely with the wilful ignorance of professing Christians who are confidently running headlong the wrong way.
It is a bit unfair to characterize all Calvinists that way Jeff. Driscoll in particular has shown a heart for the lost that is, to say the least, admirable. However, there is a subset of Calvinists that are loudly superior at being in with the in crowd. Just don’t get the two groups mixed up.
Not only running the wrong way but taking others with them.
Which is why we bother to take the time to deconstruct their nastiness toward other Christians…
Right Chris L… you’re convinced you’re in the right just as much as any of your opponents, no?
I think a lot of the complaints made on this blog are largely whining because you don’t like the tone of others, even though the content might have some value (I believe the more scholarly contributors call this “orthopraxy” or something – could be wrong).
You complain about Mike Ratliffe, for example (someone I don’t know), though he never comes across as nasty or arrogant in my view.
Not to lift anyone to the level of prophet, but I do wonder what your response would be to a man like Isaiah who appeared downright “nasty” in his introduction to Israel (Is 1) – inferencing they were dumber than asses and worse than sodomites?
Consigning people to hell and calling them followers of demons is not a “tone” issue. Suggesting that people are going to go to hell because they disagree with you on secondary (or tertiary) matters is not a tone issue.
There’s no “whining” here – though you could suggest that part of what we critique is orthopraxy – which goes beyond “tone”. Issues of orthopraxy would include quoting people out of context (or outright lying about them) for the purpose of smearing them. Issues of orthopraxy would include acting as if you are being persecuted when people do nothing more than disagree with you.
We also, though, deal with issues of orthodoxy here, as well – primarily dealing with people’s elevation of systematic theology to the level of scripture, and then declaring that those who disagree are consigned to outer darkness…
In the case of Ken/Ingrid/et al, we’re dealing with attitudes and actions that are a blight upon the church and the essence of modern-day phariseeism, and “set us apart” in a way that has nothing to do with “being in the world but not of it” and everything with just being self-righteous jerks…
We’ve explicitly noted taht on several occasions, albeit we use the term “deconstruct” rather than “whining”. As we’ve pointed out consistently, how a message is communicated is just as much theology as what is being communicated.
Perhaps not, but he does come to wrong conclusions that draw the path to God more narrowly than the scriptures do. For example, the quote on his sidebar which basically places Calvinism on a higher plane than scripture, or his take on the language issue in which he basically said that if you disagree with him you’re not a Christian.
I’ve noted before whenever watchdoggies and their defenders don’t want to repent of their nastiness they cite OT prophets, or a single incident in the ministry of Jesus. Meanwhile there’s literally dozens upon dozens of commands written directly to the NT church about conducting ourselves in the way of love and peace, as well as verses condemning sins of the mouth that include nastiness and slander. It strikes me as profoundly in error to ignore these numerous commands to follow the example of men being directly commanded by God.
I was thinking about this issue a few weeks ago, and was going to write a post about it. I’ll probably get around to it sometime.
Anyway, I was driving back from a business trip a few weeks ago, and I passed several small, rural churches with signs in front of them. Most of the things on these signs are just pithy, but some are just dumb. One that I saw that I immediately placed in the “dumb” category said this – “God can survive your rejection”.
Now when I see a sign like that I have to ask what is the message it’s trying to get across. If I were a non-Christian, I would take that as the church telling me they don’t really care about me as a person, they’re basically saying they’re right, and I’m wrong. And ultimately they and God don’t care.
I don’t know if perhaps I’m over-reacting, but it just irritates me to see those sorts of things. Ultimately, I’ve not seen too many people complain about Christians caring too much.
Tim, I’m not condoning nastiness for the sake of nastiness, but having read this blog often in the last few months I think:
a. you (meaning contributors and commenters) often jump on things that aren’t really that offensive (unless you’re guilty) and try to look at it from different angles to see how you can “deconstruct” it
b. the tone and arrogance (though there is an attempt at veiling) come through on this site maybe as much as those you are critiquing
So, I’m not saying we should slam everyone for malicious reasons, nor do I see this happening on the vast number of blogs/sites calling for warning, yet sometimes pin-pointing is required (albeit in the right spirit and right motive which doesn’t happen often – on both sides)
In the day we’re livin deception reigns. The begging and pleading for leniency is not necessarily the way to go and can be just as dangerous – and probably more – as those you call “Pharisees”.
BTW, I agree with the nature of this post (not the theology though).
What?
Really? Cause I do. 90% of what is being fought for on watchdoggie blogs are adherence to a specific systematic theology that didn’t come into existence until 400 years ago, and customs that accompanied the development of that systematic theology. Its little more than a powerplay to preserve the culture they grew up in.
Which is why I give very little credence to your view that:
In fact, I would say that more than ever we’re living in more honest times when it comes to Christianity. No longer do people use their church as a country club, or a family hang out. I have a sister that lives in Utah who told me its refreshing to go to a church where people actually believe and are determined enough to act on the basis of that belief.
And we don’t call them “Pharisees”, we call them Pharisees.
Do you know anyone that thinks that they are going to hell?
Paul C.,
RE a) – You are correct that, from time to time we may get carried away in our exegesis of the ODM… that is however a “sin” of exuberance, and not a reason to cease.
RE b) – again, yes, at times the rhetoric can escalate beyond what it should.
However, unlike the ODM’s oft quoted here – from time to time chorale one another, and I’ve yet to see a retraction, correction, nor apology from an ODM.
Holy crap, can we go a single thread without Inquisitor obsessing over determining exactly who’s going to hell?
Watchdoggies make me want to go stop being a Christian. Or at least find a different name.
Hey Tim,
“obsessing” huh?
I wouldn’t necessarily say “obsessing”?
I think it’s important. In fact, what’s more important that where someone spends eternity?
Do you know anyone who thinks that they will spend eternity there?
Do you know any Christians who are as concerned about the hell they create here and now as they suggest they are about the hell to come?
I think I understand why “Christ-follower” works so much better…
Let’s see – Jesus’ primary message is about the kingdom of God – which starts here and now – and how we should not be creating hell on earth, and that we should be always ready to go.
It seems that over 2000 years, this has morphed into a near-legendary obsession with the afterlife with lip-service (at best) paid to the kingdom of God – all the while being quite content to let the present world go to hell here and now.
Inquisitor,
You bring it up in every topic we have no matter what that topic is. You’re obsessed.
Inquisitor,
I’ve known a few…
Neil
Yay!!!
Sorry.
Just had to inject a little levity…
If only DT would come over to play on this thread…things could get really interesting…
Inq,
I for one was a person who fully acknowledged I was going to hell… in fact I welcomed as I (at that time) believed my father who died when I was young was there… In the course of the Youth Pastor’s sharing the gospel to me he told me about hell… which I already had vivid visions of before i was saved… and I flat out told him I did not want to go to heaven but wanted to go to hell as I was an evil person and my father was there waiting for me. I knew my mother, but since my father was taken from me at a young age I desired to know him.
It took God to show me the Cross… the kindness and forgiveness that came with it and that also, there was a hope that my physical father was not in hell for all his sins… and the sins passed on to me… I found hope in a suitcase, where he had spent time with some pentecostal Christians in Texas who shared Christ with him and had written in that suitcase many scriptures and prayers for my father…
With Christ we have hope… for forgiveness of sins… even the most vile of sins I had committed and I placed my faith in Christ at that time… not our of fear of Hell, but out of reverence of God’s saving power and love for me…
Be blessed,
iggy
inquisitor said, “Do you know anyone that thinks that they are going to hell?”
I’ve met two people in my walk that were convinced they were going to hell, what’s your point?
“Watchdoggies make me want to go stop being a Christian. Or at least find a different name. ”
“Goofball”
Tim,
Perhaps I am a little obsessed. However, I’ll take my obsession over your indifference. Maybe you could learn a thing or two from Kimball’s lesson here.
Iggy,
It was your knowledge of hell that showed you God’s saving power and love.
If God saved you from a paper cut it would be hard to see how loving and powerfully saving it really was.
Thus your knowledge of hell actually helped you to see God’s goodness and greatness for saving you from such a horrible fate.
Inquisitor, being obsessed over figuring out exactly who’s in and who’s out isn’t admirable. Neither is pretending I don’t have a heart for the lost.
Scotty,
my point is what did you do? Did you try to save them from their punishment, I mean, did you try to lead them to Christ?
Inquisitor,
Why is it you seem more interested in dwelling on hell than on the gospel?
Inq,
I do not deny that but it was not hell that lead me to Christ, it was God’s kindness by showing me His truth… and I met the Person Jesus…
Then hell was unleashed at me… but I will not go into that.
Hell played it part, but I never feared it nor thought it something other than what I deserved and desired… so your point is still a bit off, at least for me… an btw it was my conversion and I told it how it happened… so please do not change it from that.
iggy
Right now I could care less about heaven or hell as I’m trying to figure out why Christians hate each other so much.
love of God for fear of hell is not love.
I guess for some people, Christianity is all about hell, which is pretty much the opposite of what Jesus taught…
Wow.
That’s so grace filled and full of gospel power.
Creating anxiety about hell and then still living in fear after you say your magic incantation.
Now THAT’S good news!!!
1 John 4:15-21
Funny how some think the only way one can come to Jesus is through fear misses that it is my His love we now rely on the love God has for us…
I do not see this love in those from ODM’s… I see only those who preach the ministry of death and condemnation on others they deem unworthy… as if they themselves were more worthy of Grace.
I see that by their actions they show contempt for the kindness of God through Christ that leads all men to repentance.
iggy
When I was in my youth, my family went to a church that was pretty solidly fundamentalist. A lot could be criticized about them, I’ll not deny that, but one criticism that would have been unfair would be to say that they didn’t care about doing what they could to bring people to Christ and keep them from hell. They were big into things like door-to-door soul-winning, revival crusades, and bus ministries for kids. They were not the only church I’ve been to that had a central focus of leading people to Christ, but they were among them.
Jazz,
So are Jehovah Witnesses… so your point? Does doing all that prove they had saving grace? I did much of that also… I street witnessed and did children’s ministries and was a youth pastor… but did not know the Grace of God, my motive was to find approval from God and win His blessings.
There are good motives and motives based on truth of the Gospel. I had good motives, but as the Pharisees I would go to great extent to win souls, which in all honesty was not for God but to have “jewels in my crown” and to “bear fruit unto God” as proof of my salvation to others.
So, works righteousness can look good on the outside and be sincere, but be the path to hell as if one never knew Jesus at all… that is what Matthew 7 is about.
be blessed,
iggy
–So are Jehovah Witnesses… so your point?–
Are you determined to think of fundamentalists in the same way as a cult? I was in Christians missions for several years. Are you going to say that I’m the same as Mormons?
– I street witnessed and did children’s ministries and was a youth pastor… but did not know the Grace of God, my motive was to find approval from God and win His blessings.–
Very well. At the same time, if I waited for completely right motives to do anything, I’d wind up doing nothing. That doesn’t mean critiquing and correction are not important, but the fact remains that those fundies from my youth were greatly concerned about rescuing people from the road to hell.
–So, works righteousness can look good on the outside and be sincere,–
These were not ‘works righteousness’ people. I would say that they were overly restrictive on the behaviors they approved for believers, but they were soundly “salvation by grace through faith” people, not “salvation by works”.
Jazz,
I hear what you’re saying, and I believe that this type of outreach can be God-honoring and effective – where I think the rub sometimes comes is when this is seen as the ONLY legitimate (more often “most legitimate”) means of being the hands and feet of God on earth…
Jazz,
I can only give you my testimony and why i left my “fundamentalist” background… if you cannot accept it then all i can say is from my experience inside and out this is true of many.
iggy
Igs,
I do think you’re being a bit unfair here.
Jazz,
And yes in many cases there is not much difference from a “cult”… if the church is really big on authority teaching… such as it is against God to leave your church, or to question your pastor because “you should not touch God’s anointed” or demands such as mandatory tithing or you must dress a certain way or cut or not cut your hair or wear makeup or the wife should not work outside the home or … the list is quite long… but all of that IS works righteousness…
Again, good motives does not mean one is right with God. Also, works righteousness can look VERY good on the outside, but God is more concerned about the inside…
iggy
Tim R,
I am not saying every single fundy out there is not saved or is into work righteousness, but I do think most are. I have run into many sincere “believers”, but our sincerity does not save us… it is the acknowledgement we cannot be sincere and the hope for mercy and grace by the cross and resurrections of Jesus.
I also am not saying they did not come to salvation, but have been stunted in that they “fell from grace” to “works”… yet as I read Paul, he seems harsher than I am here on those who teach such things… he actually calls for them to be cursed!!!! I do not do that at all… LOL! I cry out for blessings to be poured out in hopes that God humbles the proud spirit and they can receive His blessings.
I am also not saying these types of outreaches are all wrong… but that they may not be done in all true purity so that the person need check his own heart before they blast others with their own standard of righteousness that they do not even keep themselves.
iggy
“I am not saying every single fundy out there is not saved or is into work righteousness, but I do think most are.”
Iggy – that is not accurate. You are confusing salvation with being in good standing with God after salvation. The majority of fundamentalists believe in salvation by grace through faith, but many require certain things after salvation to be “right with God”.
Many fundamentalists use the sinners prayer and of course there are no works connected with that. MacArthur believes in Lordship salvation but he doesn’t believe in a works salvation. Your assessment is incorrect.
Iggy and Rick,
The truth is neither one of you know who is saved and who isn’t. Neither one of your (or anyone else for that matter) knows how many fundy’s are saved or how many emergents.
Our job is to share the Gospel, and take care of the poor. We are not to try and reason out who is in and who is out.
My only good standing is that I am in Christ… anything I do to add to my standing before God is adding to the works of Christ Jesus and takes away from it… that is works righteousness… and is in no way how anyone has a “good standing” before God…
And many “mouth” the right words… as did the Pharisees of Jesus day… like the rich young ruler they tell Jesus to his face, “I have done all that since I was very young” so Jesus ups the ante to the point where he walks away because he finally see that he cannot “do” anything to be saved… except follow Jesus, which he chose not to. He was a believer… yet did not find salvation.
I think you guys are really missing what I am stating. I am stating that many out there and from what I find mostly from the fundy arena, do not know the grace they profess and attach works to keep themselves holy… if God made you holy in Christ what can one add to the Holiness of God? How can one become more sanctified if God has already sanctified you? No, one must grow in these things God already gave us and not seek to become what we already are in Christ… when one does that, they are not depending on Jesus for their holiness, sanctification or righteousness, they are depending on their own works to find approval.
iggy
Just a question Iggy… what does Jesus mean (several times) when He says, “I will reward every man according as his works shall be”?
Rev Martino,
I hope you see I do not claim and am being careful not to state that I see some as not saved… I am not saying these are not… but I do believe many are not that think they are because they are under heavy legalism and not yet come to salvation by Grace.
Historically may great men of God, including Wesley and many others went through a conversion from works to grace… I think that even my own testimony on this speaks to what i am saying…
I have found throughout the years as I talk to people they are amazed to hear the grace message. I know an 84 year old woman who has been in the church all her life state that she had never heard grace until I talked to her.
I have many stories like this… I know of a junkie in Cali who I talked to for a long time who could not accept that Jesus loved him as he was and that if he trusted Him, Jesus would get him clean. He need only believe and walk in faith. It would not happen over night. He left and went back to his old way and ended up in jail… later he found me and told me he found grace and was getting clean… he even had a job he had kept for a while.
God can change people dramatically by His grace… he changed me after all! LOL!
I preach the same grace to those who do not know Jesus and those who have known Jesus for years and see them change by the message of Grace. It is amazing how many people are in bondage to bad theology that claims grace then denies it after salvation unless you maintain your salvation…
iggy
Paul,
What is done in Christ will remain… all else is hay and stumble and will be burned up. So if your works are your own, they will be burned up, if they are down by Jesus in and through you, they will remain… (1 Cor 3)
I love the motto which i took as my own, by Maj Ian Thomas…
Many look at Christianity as Jesus coming and living in the little kingdom of my heart, and that is a lie… He came to bring you into His Kingdom and give you a new heart. Some thing that Jesus comes into our life… and again that is a lie, He came to give us His Life which is eternal. (Ezekiel 36:26;
iggy
Luke 12:31-32