we’ll edit the scriptures, but don’t you dare touch the SOLAS!
This article from CRN shows exactly how dense these guys really are. They will stop at nothing to defeat those they call their enemies. Here is one example from Warren and the video response
Warren: “It takes more than belief, it takes more than faith to really please God… Religion without love doesn’t matter. What matters is how I love God and how I love other people. That’s the great commandmentâ€
Leaven Commentary: “that is a LIE! We are saved by grace alone through faith alone! Rick’s taking us back to the law. The law cannot make us pleasing to Godâ€
Unfortunately, Warren was not talking about salvation; he was talking about pleasing God. Not once did he mention salvation in the entire video. Without faith it is impossible to please God, but faith without deeds is dead. He’s not taking us back to the law; he’s taking us back to the New Testament. But, that’s the great thing about the “solasâ€. You have no responsibility. Sit back and let the world go to hell, don’t upset yourself with loving others, and CERTAINLY don’t worry about good deeds… in the end, the tables are fixed. Just make sure that everyone you know is either a Calvinist or knows how pitiful they are in the eyes of God. In essence, they are only reading the scriptures they want to, and ruthlessly defending the solas.
These guys really have no integrity when it comes to these articles. Once again Ken Silva shows his true character (and as the General Editor, Silva is responsible for every article posted).
36 Comments(+Add)
I think this is a common misstep among ODMs and many Christians in general in that they make ever single issue and verse about salvation, no matter how much you need to mishear or ignore to do that.
I’ve seen it before on these ODM sites where people’s sermon series or comments are blasted just because either what they said wasn’t only about salvation, or when taken out of context to be about salvation can seem confusing or out there.
Salvation is a part of who we are and what we are about as Christians, but it’s not the only part, it’s why we got a Bible and the Holy Spirit and not a tract.
And this is what unmasks many of the ODMs for the frauds that they are. I have serious disagreements with Rick Warren, but the clips they presented were well within Scriptural parameters and even sound. Faith without works is dead is Scriptural, and it is indeed interesting that they link to Extreme Theology which teaches salvation through baptism and yet Warren’s description is much more Biblical here.
Hysteria and spiritual bigotry must be avoided so as not to remove our credibility. I have heard Rick Warren give a simple and Biblical presentation of the gospel and I also have heard some troubling presentations from him. But we must never engage in inaccurate claims that reveal our own dishonesty just because we do not like someone and their teachings.
How anyone could listen to those few clips and claim Warren doesn’t believe in grace through faith is openly disingenuous. And when they make such over the top accusations and their conscience doesn’t convict them what does that say about them? I contend pride sears the conscience.
Then James was a liar and we need to rip out that book…
These guys just quote the part they like so much and then say that others do not believe right?
I say they do not use the scripture properly and abuse it to their own purpose…
iggy
It’s not just the general editor … Ingrid just posted the same dribble too, and Chris R is responsible for the original article (as Rick pointed out, it’s ironic being that Chris is a baptismal regeneration proponent, as is Ingrid).
This is a sad new low for these guys … they truly should be ashamed.
The person who mentioned integrity put it best … they are now officially running on empty. God help them!
I know you are having fun putting down Silva et al. but I would like to change the subject if I may. Knowing that Warren’s church is designed to attract unbelievers shouldn’t he be addressing salvation and not saying things, that in the context of speaking to unbelievers, could be very misleading and perhaps even prevent them from seeking out true salvation?
I attended Saddleback for a little over 2 years. I left because I wasn’t being fed. I sat under this preaching and don’t think that video was dishonest. I don’t think it was honest enough! The Sunday worship experience is supposed to be geared for the un-churched yet week after week Warren’s sermons are about some practical topic like finances, time-management, relationships, family issues, addictions and Week After week you hear about how you need to apply certain steps in order to please God and earn his blessing or some crap like that.
I barely ever heard about Jesus and when I did I thought Jesus was the CEO in the sky looking to see if I’d become a productive little purpose-driven American who had his career, money and family problems sorted out so that he could spiff me with some blessing or an additional room or bigger pool for my eternal mansion.
As best as I could figure making a decision for Jesus at Saddleback was like being hired at Heaven Corp. Once I started, it was my responsibility to do a bunch of good works so that I could pad my retirement plan.
That Jesus is a load of crap and that gospel is not the Biblical gospel. My only regret is that I didn’t scream out in the middle of the service that Warren was full of SH*#!
inquisitor,
Are you saying that to teach that we are to “love God and how I love other people” is not addressing salvation? Isn’t this the very teaching of Jesus Himself?
I think that it is impossible to do these things without Jesus… so in the greater context of a cut and paste quote, this statement alone is a huge part of the gospel message of Jesus Christ…
iggy
If this were the prime directive of Christian bloggers, life would be much easier.
“I attended Saddleback for a little over 2 years. I left because I wasn’t being fed.”
did you loose your bible? did all of your spiritual community die? Did you stop praying? I HATE those words “I am not being fed”
To me it is like someone sitting at a banquet table filled with tons of food and complaining that they aren’t being fed because someone isn’t hand feeding them (and only once a week at that). GRRR… the church is so lame sometimes.
Nathan – what is really lame are pastors who think that they can shirk their Biblical responsibility to preach the word in season and out of season. What is really lame is preaching the same feel good pop-psychology messages that any of us could get from Oprah or Anthony Robins and calling that Christianity. What is really lame is telling people that life is a test and they’d better get their ass in gear if they hope to pass the test. That is not Christianity it is a purpose-driven lie.
Nathan, amen.
What’s solid food?
Joe
James,
It’s not what happens at Saddleback, either… I’ve got friends and relatives there, and unless you just moved to New Jersey from there (where your messages are being posted from), I call shenanigans on your “attending Saddleback”.
The whole “purpose-driven lie” thing is lame and untrue, and just a sad smear of Christian brothers and sisters. I don’t agree with everything RW does or says, but I have seen a number of strong Christians who have come from his church, or who were first reached by his presentation of the gospel in PDL or from churches which used ideas from PDC.
Regardless of how people here perceive Warren,
I do think there is a larger point from James that I dig.
Not being able to tell the difference between a pastor and a motivational speaker is kinda depressing.
I heard this quote some time ago…
“Whenever I meet a Buddhist monk/priest, I see a spiritual man. But whenever I meet a Christian pastor, all I see is a manager.”
Ouch.
Not that that’s my opinion of Ricky Dubs, BUUUUUT….
There is a real issue here to talk about.
NC,
When will we get past the idea that a pastor=the church at which they pastor and to where people act like they actually believe in the ministry of all believers, in which the purpose of church staff is to equip the ministers and the purpose of the ministers is to advance the kingdom of God?
James,
Perhaps you could point us to a sermon online from Saddleback that illustrates your point. After all, if you went there for two years, and you’ve accurately summed up your experience that shouldn’t be all that difficult.
Chris L
You’re smoking something. I’m not in New Jersey. I’m in a Starbucks in Huntington Beach California on my laptop using my wireless card. I don’t know how you get off saying that I’m in New Jersey. Is that how you marginalize people who disagree with you by accusing them of being in other states?
As for the job of ministers, have you guys never read Acts 6?
Acts 6:1 Â Â In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.â€
It seems pretty clear to me that the job of a pastor is the ministry of the word. Warren doesn’t actually preach the Bible he twists a bunch of out of context verses from a bunch of paraphrases to help him make the points of his weekly motivational address. In my book that is neglecting the ministry of the word.
James,
Who is a pastor?
Oh and if you don’t believe me regarding Warren’s sermons then listen to them for yourselves.
http://saddlebackfamily.com/mediacenter/services/Archives.aspx
Chris L.,
I don’t follow…sorry…
I agree that it’s impossible to love God and man without being saved. But try telling that to the unsaved. I have many friends that have nothing to do with God, but they will tell you that they love Him. They don’t do anything to try to reach out and help someone but they will tell you that they love people. In fact, no only will they tell you this, they themselves believe it. I’m talking about 99% of the human race.
Alright James, if that’s the way you want to play it, we’ll assume everything found on that page you believe aren’t Biblical concepts.
So for example on this sermon when Warren preaches that as the Spirit of God moves within us we become more and more like Him. You would say A) that the spirit of God doesn’t move within us, or B) that the Spirit of God is incapable of making us more and more like Him.
Or perhaps in this sermon where Warren preaches that God wants us to gather together with other believers in what we would commonly call a church, you would contend that the Bible actually warns us against gathering together.
We could go on and on, but I think I’ve made the point that you your claims about Saddleback look foolish to anyone who pays the least bit attention, which is why many of us are skeptical about claims you make about yourself.
James,
We’ve had a number of folks claim to be one thing and end up being another – The ISP and node you’re on is registered in New Jersey, so apparently your Starbucks is rerouting to the east coast through a proxy…
i still think the real story is The ChrisIngrid’s own embrace of baptismal regeneration while getting on their high horse about Warren.
blah, blah, blah…
We go back and forth on this stuff all the time. ODM’s are off the mark! Period! There is no defense for them.
70% of what they write is non-sequiter. 20% of what they write is proof-texted, subjective garbage. The final 10% is well worth a read. To bad you have to wade through the dump to get there.
Rick Warren just co-wrote a book with Chuck Colson about having a Christian Worldview. Great, in my opinion, Rick has finally joined the dark side.
Sometimes, your fellow church members are glad to see the gluttons go.
So to speak.
Julie,
We become gluttons by ingesting all that Word, but never doing any ‘working out’. Orthodoxy with no orthopraxy is spiritual gluttony no matter what way you cut it.
And to all, I disagree with having our primary ‘food source’ being in the form of milk from a pastor. What grown, or mature adult, gets bottle fed throughout their life? None, unless you are mentally incapacitated or increddibly immature and stunted. So what then must we do? Get solid food. Go hunt for our food ourselves, cook it, chew it, ingest it, and then get it OUT of us. For out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth speaks.
Otherwise, you’re a glutton. And you would have no orthopraxy, making your orthodoxy useless. “Faith without deeds is dead”.
Love,
Joe
Good point.
PS, that ‘good point’ was for Julie. Sorry.
The need to constantly be fed is the marking of a spiritually immature person. Just like human babies need to be fed by someone else, it is not unrealistic to think that people who are new Christians need to be fed. The problem is we have people who have been sitting in the same pew for 50 years who still claim they “need to be fed”. They don’t need to be fed; they need to move their fat butts and exert some energy.
Christians in the US have more Biblical resources available to them than Christians at any time in history. Anyone who is depending on a pastor to feed him, is sadly mistaken. Pastors are called to “equip the saints for works of service”. This may involve some teaching on the pastor’s part, but it also means that the people who are in the congregation are actively doing “works of service”.
Also, the passage that was cited in Acts about the “ministering of the word” was not talking about educating Christians. It was talking about the Christians going and speaking to Jews about Jesus. They weren’t holding Sunday School classes.
(Can I hear an ‘Amen’!?)
Amen Phil! I heartily agree with you.
New Christians need milk, bottle feed…however…
What happens if the baby never gets off the bottle? They become retarded in their growth, and perhaps starve.
We have to GROW UP in our salvation!
So, Amen
Joe
I don’t agree with the attack on Warren in this case.
But in following some of the later comments here, I want to ask, what do you make of references in scripture to “meat in due season”?
Scripture refers to milk and meat. I would suggest that some of the Christians who think they are so mature and grown up may be the ones that are immature (proud and lofty).
Someone simply made the statement (perhaps rightly and deserving of consideration) that they weren’t being fed and everyone piles on him/her and automatically draws the conclusion this must be because he’s a fat and lazy hearer of the word. Is this mature and right?
I like what Jesus said regarding Christian maturity, which seems to be the opposite of what man would deem maturity:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Amen, Amen, Amen!! At the risk of sounding like Mark Driscoll (which wouldn’t be all that bad) I’m tired of whiney little Christians babbling about “I’m not being fed”, or “I can’t have a nativity scene at my city hall”, or “if it weren’t Madeleine O’Hare” etc…
I have 3 friends who are missionaries in China; they don’t have bibles, churches, government support, powerpoint, worship bands, christian radio, pews, batismals, jones memorial carpeting, sound systems, internet, sunday school curriculum, or seminary trained pastors…They have each other and maybe one bible. Guess what? The church is growing like crazy!
When I asked my friend why? He said “Prayer! Not petty petition prayers, not Lord change the government prayers, not ‘Lord rescue me prayers’, but Prayers of Adoration, Commitment, and Thanksgiving.”
The most I ever learned about God came from a bum named Cleveland on the streets of Cinncinnati. Trust me he wasn’t quoting scripture. But his life breathed it. To quote my pastor “You want meat, you want challenge in your faith…Here you go…Love the Lord your God with your heart, mind and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself. Try to do that and you will have a lifetime of falling deeper into God.”
Paul C, I wasn’t commenting specifically on any one certain post, but in general about milk and meat.
I think you’ve used the verse you quoted way out of context. In fact, the verses after that quotation give you the meaning of the verse, directly. It has nothing to do with ‘maturity in Christ’ other than the fact that Peter would be older.
I gotta go fly on an airplane for the day (oh the military, how you pain me! lol not), so I’ll talk to you guys later. Cya.
Joe
No Joe, this wasn’t speaking of Peter’s martyrdom, but rather his spiritual growth… a great example of God’s mercy. In many ways, taking a self-confident, decisive, bold individual and molding him into a faithful, trusting, loyal to the death disciple. That’s the kind of death that glorified God.
Have a safe flight
Paul C,
It is about Peter’s martyrdom… for Peter asks about John and Jesus states to Peter to mind his own business who long he will live. It is the prophecy about Peter…. the strong who would later be bound in chains
Peter alludes to this in 2 Peter 13-15
So it is a reference to his martyrdom… and not just to his spiritual growth.
Now about meat… or also called “solid foodâ€.
It is a reference that is used that one drinks milk which is the teachings of the foundations… the “elementary truths of God’s word†as Hebrews states. It is these foundational teachings that allows one to continue to grow… but often people either fixate on these or remain ignorant of them and thus stay as mere babes in Christ… to act like carnal men.
I believe it is the same idea that Paul uses about the Law being a schoolmaster and when one matures they come to Christ.
Be blessed,
iggy
I can accept that – but I would also say that perhaps this scripture has dual meaning as it also relates to spiritual maturity. As you grow in Christ, you become more dependent on Him for girding, directing and so on.
I was thinking of Paul who confessed in Phil 3 that all the things that he girded himself with, thinking he was drawing himself closer to the Lord, he ended up having to flush down the toilet and start from scratch.
The point I am a little concerned about is this concept of being all grown up. The web and blogosphere are filled with millions of people (perhaps even on this very blog – gasp) that are convinced they have something unique and important to convey, only to create more confusion.
Paul C,
I can accept that also! LOL!
And actually really like how you stated it
Thanks.
iggy