Exhibit A: One Reason the World Hates the Church…
…and why she often looks like a hooker instead of the bride.
http://www.charlotte.com/nation/story/358086.html
For all the whining, moaning and consternation over the ECM, it seems that much of the bemoaning the direction of the church misses the two basic examples in American Christianity which turn off the masses and give all of us, and - more importantly - Jesus - a black eye. These are:
1) Health & wealth gospel-pushers
2) Self-righteous busybodies who are more worried about boycotting Disney and demonstrating over the lack of Nativity displays than they are about the widow, the orphan and the stranger
In general, here at CRN.Info, we’ve dealt with #2 far more than #1, but I’d just like to take this particular moment to say that the gospel of health and wealth is particularly repugnant to the gospel of Jesus and living in the kingdom of God, and that displays like that of the Dollars, Myers’, White’s, Hinn’s and their ilk do little more than pave the wide road with gold bricks. I could care less about whether their view of the Trinity is Oneness, Twoness or Threeness if the gospel they preach - that true faith in Jesus will make you healthy and wealthy - does not resemble that of the one who taught “blessed are the poor…”
Bleh.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:55 am
AMEN!!
November 12th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
I was….watching TBN last night…..(!!!!) for fun, they were doing their
give us moneypledge drive, and I was able to predict to the second with accuracy exactly when during their ’sermons’ they would ask for us to ’sow our seeds’ to them (of 77$, 777$, or $7777). Is that kinda pathetic…? “If you want _____ (fleshy desire), SOW A SEED!!!”They love to misrepresent the parables of Jesus, and OT verses, for money.
“Unlike so many, we do not peddle the Word of God for profit” 2 Cor 2:17
Since the “seed” in the parable of the 4 soils is the Word of God, and they change that seed in to ‘money’, guess what they peddle?
Amen to your post.
Joe
November 12th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
NO!!!
You’re wrong!
It’s purpose driven man loving new evangelical infomercial non-gospel semi-pelagian skybala apostasy that drives people away from churches.
Because what people really crave is anachronistic forms of liturgy, people in their backyards and anger as a sign of true devotion.
I can’t believe you people don’t see that.
You must be hardened and blinded in your sin…
November 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Again I ask
Who cares what the world thinks? Their rejection of Christ is on their own heads.
If the church was the most perfect represenataion of Christ the world would reject it. Actually they would reject it all the more vehemently.
All men will stand before God and answer for their rejection of Christ. They stand alone. The Father will not accept the “christians were hypocrites so I stayed away” response.
Coming to church doesn’t save you, neither does “christians” befriending the world, save men.
This is what the arminian philosophy has done to the church.
And please this is not a defense of the tulip. I am not a calvinist, and I see no biblical basis for arminianism.
I bet someone will quote Ghandi here before the day is out.
November 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
John 15:
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’
This also applies to the church throughout the centuries unto today;
John 17:
20″I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
The world stands condemnned.
November 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Chris P.,
I probably shouldn’t even waste the energy replying to you, but here goes. The world, as in the systems of power that control things on earth, will always hate Christ. Some people will probably too. That does not give Christians a pass though.
All throughout the Gospels Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for blocking people from entering the Kingdom or making it near impossible for them to do so. In Luke 11:52, He says:
It seems to me that if the Pharisees could block people, then so can we.
November 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Chris, are you saying that God cannot use a Christian’s life as a positive influence on those he rubs shoulders with and that a compromised life is also not a stumblingblock? Do you believe that a sinner in some way has a free will?
November 12th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Chris P. asked,
Jesus answered:
November 12th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
I would agree with no. 1 being a problem. I have little love for the prosperity gospel schtick.
I do question no. 2, though. Why would we jump to the conclusion that if someone is concerned about some things Disney does and wants people to know about it, that they automatically must not care about helping those who need help?
And while pointing out other areas of concern may be good, I don’t think it necessarily means that the EC, or at least some in it, are not as much of a concern as before.
November 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Funny how those verses Chris P quotes are always quoted by Christian who are total jerks. Apparently what Jesus meant by that was to be as big an ass as possible whenever possible.
November 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
There are many reasons why the unsaved would dislike the church, not the least is that the god of this world has blinded their eyes. But to be uncompassionate about it is unchristian.
November 12th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Interestingly, Chris P stops before the core of Jesus prayer in John 15 and 17… and that is love and unity…
It seems that he also misses that John states in that famous verse John 3:16… starting at 14
Really i hate how those modernists take scripture out of context and proof text their doctrinal stance… this is as bad as any Rick Warren misuse of scripture… at least he gets the core value or principle right!
iggy
November 12th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech!
ChrisP!!
Pop, pop, pop!!!
Vrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom!!!
I’m sure someone will trot out “the gospel is offensive” before the day is out.
I’m so over people who believe that because of verses about the world “hating them” that they don’t have to be concerned about their own comportment.
Thank you for ham-handedly not recognizing that “the world” in the johannine literature meant a particular system of rebellion…context, context…that pesky thing that gets in the way of the “plain meaning of the text”.
The world stands condemned…yep, I can tell your heart breaks too with that kind of strident, sharp, cut them off, “who cares” commentary.
Very christlike.
By the way ChrisP…(you know what’s coming)
How do you reconcile your cut ‘em off, who cares attitude with your own churches purpose driven, open to compromise vision statement?
Reading it makes one think you would care about the lost and broken world.
Are you in conflict with your churches professed ideals?
Gosh, Jesus must have been a compromiser. Heck! GOD was a compromiser!
For GOD soloved THE WORLD….
Evil emergent deity…
November 12th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
NC,
thank you.
I love when someone writes what I was thinking. Less work for me, and I don’t have to restrain myself was typing all those naughty words that come to mind.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
tim,
I’m just tired of having people be glaringly guilty of the very problem they assign to everyone else, ya know?
November 12th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
I saw the other night that Peter Popoff is back on television. I mean, he went to PRISON. How is this allowed to happen? Does any one else remember the 60 minutes expose on him? It was shamful. And yet, he is back, peddling his holy anointing oil.
Speaking of which, a similar themed gospel presentation was offering holy annointing oil, but if you were of a more modern mind set, you could also order the holy oil bath gel or holy oil body butter. No kidding. I only wish I had remembered the phone number. I had no idea Jesus had opened a franchise of Bath and Body works to help slough all those sins. Imgine how popular I could be at the office gift exchange…..
November 12th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
That cracked me up! LOL!
good thing I was not drinking milk or something… = )
ig
November 12th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
the spewing of milk out your nose would be a sign of what the true god is going to do to YOU, iggy-meister.
you are of the sons of belial for you do not show devotion by your perpetual anger and you have transgressed that true god’s holiness by caring for a world you should not love!
know that and tremble in your emergent rebellion!
muuah, hah, ha, haah, haah, haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
November 12th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea.
–Mohandas Gandhi
November 12th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
Oh great… now I wet my pants… but I do that a lot anyway… so it had nothing to do with you…
Gotta go change… again…
ig
November 12th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Well since it doesn’t matter how we treat people (in Chris P. understanding)
Chris P.-Shut up!
November 12th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Hey, this is really simple for me guys…
The world, (even if it’s just a particular system of ‘rebellion’, I’d be very happy to learn about that btw nc, never heard that before, brother), hates us, BUT we’re supposed to love our neighbor as ourself. Oh and, “For God so loved the world” right? Well, last time I checked….
“Whoever claims to live in Him, must walk as Jesus did” 1 John 2:6.
Guess I should love the world too. But some might cry “…don’t you know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?”.
Love my neighbor….light before men….walk like Jesus did….don’t be ‘friends’ with the world (system?). That’s pretty simple to me!!!! And hey, you guys are just as angry with Chris P, it SEEMS to me by your responses, as the ODMs act too. So watch it fellas!! =)
Love,
Joe
November 12th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Joe C.: Wha….?
November 13th, 2007 at 12:15 am
One can love with God’s love… but to be in a relationship with this world… as in my identity is in what I do or what sexual gender I prefer… is “loving” the world system…
Instead of being the Image of God we bow to the “created things” that are really below us if we understand who we are.
If we love the “things” then we serve two masters… but to Love God and one another… be that “other” a Christian or not… (as exhibited by Jesus and by the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit) we now can love God and other as we are told to do….
Chris P confuses loving people as God commands with loving creation and bowing to it… and in that shows his contempt for “others” God commanded him to love.
In this he is in error… and the truth is not in him as he does not love his brothers, let alone his enemies. He loves only his understanding of God… he loves his beliefs in God, and hopes to please God by showing his own devotion… this is religion and what Jesus came to free us from.
be blessed,
iggy
November 13th, 2007 at 12:19 am
You guys are hilarious.
Loved the Ghandi quote.
Calm down about Chris P.’s comments. It’s not like the two above were all that controversial anyway. Except for him mentioning a Ghandi quote. What the heck.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:29 am
Yeah…I wasn’t very clear…I think I was trying to… be funny and serious at the same time…I lost myself lol….I don’t know, let me explain.
It’s easy, to know how to handle the world because we’re to:
Love our neighbor as ourself, let our light shine before men, God loved the world and we’re supposed to walk as God did when He was here. And so many other Scriptures too. That makes how to act and treat unbelievers easy for me.
This is how we’re supposed to act. This is what it means to make the Grace of God appealing.
I hope that explains what I meant better, man my first post was REALLY confusing haha.
Joe
November 13th, 2007 at 12:34 am
PS, I must be becoming emergent with a post as confusing as THAT. Oh I’m just raggin on you Iggy, you like it.
Joe
November 13th, 2007 at 12:38 am
merry,
I will only say this… I know what I talk about above as i was there once… once I found grace I become totally messed up as a “Christian”… I found few who I could talk to… and still at times feel that way.
Once one enters into the Grace of God and sees it in more of fullness… one cannot go back you just see things so differently.
I am not against Chris P… in fact I encourage him to actually engage instead of doing drive by comments. but the reality is the more I exchange with these guys the more I see they miss some really fundamental christian truths and are in error… in that they are right in their own mind and the path does seem clear as it all works out rationally to them. Now, when I found grace there was this huge mystery that began to unfold. I began to see God in a whole new light and began to find peace and understood things like “my yoke is easy”.
My prayer is always of blessings to all Ingrid, Ken, Chris P… and whoever else to find the fullness of God’s grace and see how God can change ones heart.
be blessed,
iggy
November 13th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Joe…
It all made perfect sense to me! LOL!
ig
November 13th, 2007 at 12:44 am
Hey Iggy…your response to merry was very insightful to me. “My yoke is easy”. We make it so, so hard though…
We trust ourselves too much, and not God enough.
Joe
November 13th, 2007 at 8:02 am
–Again I ask
Who cares what the world thinks? Their rejection of Christ is on their own heads.–
I would have to ask, does it matter for what reason the world thinks little of us? Is it because of our stand for Christ, or is it because we have WoF blowhards making gazillions of dollars because Christians, many of whom may be otherwise pretty intelligent, ’sow their seeds’ in hopes of getting rich on ‘the blessings’?
I do agree that if the church were to become more Christlike, it would not really effect how the world sees it, expect maybe to hate it even more. I would also add that the fact that the world tries to skewer a certain minister or ministry does not in itself make it wrong–if the media tries to hold up Osteen as “America’s pastor” despite his poor theology why should we assume that those they denigrate are automatically wrong?
But very often, the world doesn’t think much of us because of things we all have been parts of. The names Bakker and Tilden should be sources of shame to us, especially since their ilk are still out there pulling the same cons. It’s almost unimaginable that after all these years people like that are still pulling in the mega-bucks, but there they are.
So, to sum up, if the world hated us because we consistently stood for the Gospel, then so be it, we ought to obey God rather then men. But we haven’t, we have let profiteers use us to build ministry kingdoms, and when they fall the whole world knows about it, and they rightly question what we are really commited to.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:07 am
We should be supremely concerned about what God thinks about us.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:22 am
The issue with ChrisP is the drive by commenting, his unwillingness to not make immature inflammatory comments when he does stick around and the general pharasaical tone/approach that has been well documented here and elsewhere on his part.
It’s ironic that people who are so concerned with protecting the Gospel, Jesus, God and whatever supernatural reality that is apparently so incompetent that it needs angry humans to defend it, deeply betray the gospel by such attitudes.
I don’t write off ChrisP, but in response to him and other ODM types, “the measure with which you measure will be measured to you” and it reveals their hypocrisy.
The difference here is that nobody claimed the moral high ground based on personal preference and sub-cultural idolatries. Those people did. So…
1. If they claim it (explicitly or by support of those who do)
2. and express it sinfully (lies being the number one issue)
3. they deserve special attention/critique
It’s not personal and I don’t attack him personally.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:49 am
It is frustrating though to have someone who claims intelligence come on and say incredibly ignorant things then blast everyone for showing scripturally where they are off… then resort to calling names.
If they claim to hold scripture literal, then why get angry when i or someone points out what it states?
It seems that the literal they want is of convenience to fit their own doctrines. That is error and leads to this sort of hypocrisy that nc is talking of…
There is not much left to do with comments like that but poke little fun (which is wrong I admit0 at how absurd those comments are….
I mean every time I mention to him his comments that “the only cure for AIDS is death” he tells me to shut up… I have only spoken his own words and he is unrepentant of them. I fear that when Jesus quotes them someday they tell Jesus to “shut up” as they are judged by their own words.
His condemnation is not me condemning him… it is his own conscience that does. Again, I know this because I was very much like him until I almost lost my faith becasue I could not live in a double standard… or be a schizophrenic Christian teaching one standard and not even getting close to it myself. Now I hold Jesus as THE standard and realize no one meets it… and all need Grace and Mercy from God through Jesus.
I pray for that to move from mental assent to experience in others.
Be blessed,
iggy
November 13th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
But there IS NO cure for AIDS Iggy!!! Except a Miracle. So TECHINICALLY, and if we take his statement the MOST literally, Chris’s statement about the only cure for AIDS being death, is true. If I quote the quote you used.
Man, I’m good at this literal stuff.
Joe
November 13th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
LOL!,
Joe, he was stating it in the context that we as Christians should not do anything about it. That it was as if god ordained that all homosexuals should just die to AIDS…
So, it was a little more sinister than that… But to be literal, the cure to every thing is death… be it the Second death, or dying to ourselves in Christ to live in Him.
The funny thing is that I do take the bible more literal now than when I was not “emerging” the difference is understanding context and not just picking and chooosing what I want to take literal…
I take literally that if my son is disobedient (as a Jew under the Law) I am to take him outside of town and stone him… but since I am not a Jew under the law I can give my son grace…
I believe literally the words that it is better to pluck one’s eye out or cut off one’s hand… than have them offend me and end up in Hell… but I also understand Jesus was teaching the strickness of the Law and how perfect one must be to please God… and Jesus fulfilled that.
Before I would pick and choose was was literal and fit my own doctrine.
Be blessed,
iggy
November 13th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
As to the world:
In John 18:36, we read:
Here, the word John uses for “world” is κοσμου - kosmos, which comes from the word komizo - which implies the orderly arrangement of things. In the Greek, the implications of this word are more than physical location, but rather imply the order of things in existance.
John, in particular, uses this word in two different ways - one to describe the systems of the world (as in Jesus’ words to Pilate - “of this world” - implies to be created from the systems of this earth (which are derived from human power - political, financial, physical)); and the other to define its entirety (such as in John 3:16), from which a subset (people) are singled out for discussion.
So, yes, we should not care what “the world” thinks of the church (i.e. how the systems of this world want the church to fit into their order of things - the power structure), but we should care what “the world” (the individual people in the world) sees when the church - the people who claim to follow Christ - is on display as an example of what Christ taught us to be like.
November 13th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
To show a cold and dispassionate attitude toward homosexual AIDS sufferers is unchristian. And to suggest that God punishes homosexuals with AIDS is baseless superstition.
November 13th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Ig,
I’m right with you on that brother. Context is “king” when fully understanding Scripture. Good thoughts on stoning and chopping limbs off too, I can live with that. lol.
And Chris L, good thoughts on ‘the world’ and the usage in Scripture.
Joe