Re-considering Rick Warren
The Internet Monk re-considers Warren:
Michael Spencer re-considers his past criticisms of Rick Warren. Its a fair article, and one the watchdoggies would do well to read with an open mind. From the article:
Finally, Warren is a model of personal integrity. I can’t imagine what it’s been like to go from being a church planter, to a leader of a moderately innovative growing church, to the best selling author in the world. It’s true that Warren isn’t John Piper, but he’s not Joel Osteen either. I’m listening to Warren as I type, and there’s been more of the Bible’s central message in the last 3 minutes than I’ve ever heard from Osteen.
Warren’s critics hate the fact that he uses so many different translations when he shares all those Bible verses. Good grief people. Listen to yourselves.
Warren is honest. He’s not comfortable as a media star. He doesn’t play the “generic spiritual leader†role very well. He’s learned how to use his opportunities to point clearly to Christ. I seriously doubt we’ll see Warren doing a Ted Haggard anytime soon. He seems to be the very basic, down-to-earth person he’s always been.
So there you have it. I’m eating crow on this one. Warren is an average preacher. I’m not convinced that his seeker sensitive methods are dependable Biblical. But I am convinced he’s a good man, with a good ministry, who presents the Gospel, encourages pastors, starts churches, demonstrates compassion and lives with integrity.
These days, that resume goes a long way.
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Wow - internet repentance, somebody wake me up. God convicted me last year about throwing someone’s entire ministry overboard just because it has some flaws in my perspective. I agree with Warren being compassionate and a believer, and I also believe he over pragmatizes the Bible.
But in the end he is a believer who cares about people and most certainly has as many sins as do I. God is doing in me many things and the things that this Monk guy said are part of what he is doing in me. There are heretics but there are many brothers who love Jesus but have taken a wrong turn.
This being like Jesus thing is very hard, I like the truth war better, much easier.
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Hello all
Just saying some things about Warren. I’m not sure if he is repented. There was an incident a few months ago when warren visited syria and praised the country (which persecutes christians and drives churches underground) for being religiously tolerant.
Soon after his visit, a key christian leader was assasinated in Syria. I am not sure if he has further political fiascos. But one thing about RW that was quite obvious is his lack of integrity, sorry to say.
Why so? RW said that no video recordings were made of the entire event, so he said that his critics have no right to accuse him of doing as those things mentioned earlier. Yet he posted on YouTube (which was later removed) a video of the trip. If that wasn’t lying what was? By the grace of God, the truth was out and someone happened to save a sound recording of the affair.
The key problem with RW is that he although preaches bits and pieces of the gospel truth, when taken into the bigger context of his other teachings, the truth no longer becomes truth. Its like muslims preaching that there is sin but they say that Jesus was not the one who removes it from his people, but rather salvation through the works involving 5 pillars of islam.
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:33 am
Lance,
I do tend to side with your obvious disagreement with RW’s “ministry”, but I wouldn’t go as far as to compare his teachings with that of muslims saying Jesus isn’t the way. Not yet anyway.
I do believe RW is a believer, but he is one who has comprimised the integrity and desperate spirit shown by Jesus’ teachings when confronting Nicodemus. RW has, by his methodology, promoted easy believism and in turn given a spirit of universalism that deceived pastors have flocked to by the hundreds.
I do believe Rick Warren is a brother who has been deceived by his own humanism and has been the author of many unbiblical ministries because of his well intentioned, misguided perception. Let me say one more time before some of you try to have a spirit filled meal on me…I do believe RW is a believer…just one who’s methodology is unbiblical.
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 am
By the way all…In my opinion methodology is unbiblical if the born again message doesn’t accompany the method.
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 am
Hello Jonathan,
Honestly we don’t know for sure if Rick Warren is a believer or not. But given his current set of beliefs about God, his God is called Jesus but it is likely not Jesus the Christ.
He should stop everything and reflect, lest he leads more into deception. His methods indeed are unbiblical i agree
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:41 am
Jonathan,
My example was an exaggeration so that i would not be misunderstood. lol looks like i failed
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:29 am
Lance,
Of course only the Lord knows who are his so I really can’t say for sure if he is a believer, but if you held a gun to my head I would have to say he is… we will find out in time.
It can be so difficult to put a heading on your trouble with RW, but I would say it comes from his universalistic spirit which is not of Christ Jesus. Reflecting would be useless at this point because the mirror he looks at would be the one set up by himself. He must go to scripture and in that submit himself to Godly counsel outside the kingdom he has built with man centered hands. In doing so he would be forced to look at a mirror whose reflection he might not want to encounter.
Lance, there is one thing I would say to you which I have fought in myself…Love for the ones I disagree with so fervently. We should pray for RW and ask the Lord to reveal himself to RW like he did to so many in the New Testament. I agree we should correct those who exibit incongruencies with scriptural teachings, but we should also come to grips with the fact the Lord loves them and they are human as we are.
I struggle with this juggling act to this day and I ask the Lord to complete in me a work.
May the Lord put more desperation in our hearts for the souls of men that we may do nothing but proclaim the gospel as the Apostles did!
November 3rd, 2007 at 6:57 am
Jon,
You wrote:
Perhaps it would also be appropriate to pray that the Lord might reveal Himself to us, as well, to demonstrate to us where we may have narrowed the already-narrow way in possibly casting unbiblical judgements on men like RW. We need to be open to the movement both ways - not only that God may change the hearts of those who we believe are not fully in line with biblical orthodoxy/orthopraxy, but that He might change our hearts if our opinions are not His.
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:41 am
I agree with you, Chris. But I have personally been a part of the purpose driven life as presented in a church setting as well as having read the book several times. It presents, as was Warren’s admitted intention, a sales strategy type of gospel presentation that is designed, also Warren’s intention, to get a positive response.
There are no outright wrong statements but there are teachings that have overly simplistic truths that are glaringly lacking in their depth and therefore incomplete. It is possible to include some truth and exclude others and thereby render that truth unclear. It cannot be overlooked that throughout Jesus’ ministry He presented the simple gospel while attaching some seemingly difficult sacrifice in order to become a disciple.
It is unbiblical to button-hole a person, take three minutes to explain the gospel transaction with only carrots as the bait, have a person repeat a scripted prayer, and with that declare him saved. Warren has openly admitted he contoured his presentation with a sales strategy structure with a view toward results.
That is unbiblical even though by God’s grace people do get saved as well as get decieved.
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Wow.
Wow.
I’m almost speechless. But not quite. First, I appreciate the Internet Monk’s article and humility. I also appreciate, most of Rick F’s first comment.
About the rest: Let’s assume RW said something he shouldn’t have in a foreign country. For that matter, let’s assume he said something he shouldn’t have in this country. So? He was not rejecting Christ or faith. If anything I would say it sounds like he was trying to get that country to be more tolerant by praising their tolerance. Regardless, we are assuming it was something he shouldn’t have done. How many times a day do you do something you shouldn’t, or not do something you should? RW in my view has done a lot more good things than I can even imagine in my life. It’s a good thing salvation isn’t based on works, or I’d be in trouble.
About preaching Christ: RW actually expects people to commit their lives to Christ. That shows in their congregation. Not just an acceptance of Christ, but a commitment to Christ. Most churches just say come to church on Sundays and Wednesdays and don’t do anything so bad that we find out about it and you’ll be a good Christian (if they don’t say it, they live it.) Have you ever listened to him? Can he be overly simplistic? Yes. Hey, me too. Doh! Sometimes I make things overly complicated. Doh! Does he miss the point of some passages? Yes. Hey, me too. Doh! But if you listen to him, he doesn’t get just the basics. He gets the whole gist. And he tries to live it. This guy shares Christ in the grocery store. When was the last time you did that? I never have.
Here’s the deal. My biggest qualms with RW are a few theological issues. But he’s not preaching and teaching in my church. He is however bringing more people to a life commited to Christ. Praise God!
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I’ve restrained myself from answering some of the responses here. I agree with Christian, he said it well. And with less cuss words than I would have.
I also pretty much agree with the Internet Monk’s assessment.
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:41 pm
The last thing I’m going to do is say who is and isn’t saved.
I lent out my copy of the “Lamb’s Book of Life” and haven’t had it returned, so until then, I remain quiet on the matter.
November 4th, 2007 at 1:17 am
Julie,
I think Ken has it on his coffee table… I just hope he gets the coffee ring stain off before he returns it… that would be embarrassing!
Be blessed,
iggy
November 4th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
I’ve also refrained from saying some stuff.
Now the floodgates will open. LOL
Having spent a fair amount of time (in person and on the internet) with Kevin Johnson (Middle School pastor at Saddleback) and also been in multiple training sessions in addition to multiple coversations with Doug Fields (Senior High Pastor at Saddleback) I can safely say that neither of them would serve under Rick Warren if there was an issue with his character.
November 4th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I have never seen any reason to question Rick Warren’s character. That is a baseless accustation. He also seems to be a humble and affable believer.
It is his pragmatism with which I disagree. But let me also say that I believe that Warren has implemented his methods with good intentions.
November 4th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
“I’m listening to Warren as I type, and there’s been more of the Bible’s central message in the last 3 minutes than I’ve ever heard from Osteen.”
Not much of a complement.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Hi Christian, R.E. your comment:
The issue is two fold: praising a country for tolerence when they only let Christian churches exists under Moslem law, i.e. no (or limited) evangelising, limited message etc. and second for saying that there were no videos shot there when there was.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
That is what happens when preachers (or any Christian) get involved with politics. Keep looking at the world through gospel eyes.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:09 am
[Having spent a fair amount of time (in person and on the internet) with Kevin Johnson (Middle School pastor at Saddleback) and also been in multiple training sessions in addition to multiple coversations with Doug Fields (Senior High Pastor at Saddleback) I can safely say that neither of them would serve under Rick Warren if there was an issue with his character. ]
This is a personnal assessment. The syria incident is hard fact with evidence. You can google World News Daily or write to its editors. I’m sure they can forward you the mails/ replies by Rick Warren.
Looking at the way RW phrased his replies on the mail, he was by no means repentant, nor apologetic even in face of hard evidence. He didn’t even bother to explain. All he did was to say things such as ‘i am in the council of foreign relations, so i know as much as about the middle east you (joeseph farah) do”. This is NOT a humble attitude.
True humility shows when crisis happens. For all you know, RW may be putting a false front in front of Doug and Kevin.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Lance all I can say is let it go. You’re commanded to forgive even when it’s not asked for.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Frankly, I seriously have a hard time believing anything that World News Daily prints. I don’t even think Rush Limbaugh will use them as a source anymore.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Lance,
The thing is this, RW most likely is very aware of the words he chose, though I think that many here in America miss that for him to speak out more strongly might have a adverse effect on Christians in Syria. He was praising them for what they are doing in hopes to encourage more of that kind of behavior as far as I can see it.
In many of these countries as you pointed out, Christians are attacked and abused and killed for nothing other than their faith. They are not to speak publicly or to even change their religion. I have heard at least three different stories of where a Christian wife lived as a Muslim woman and practiced Christianity at home in private but outwardly appeared Muslim… if she was to live openly as a Christian, she would be murdered without hesitation.
We here do not understand the persecution that our fellow Christians face adn it seems rather uncompassionate to say that RW should have spoken out stronger or done this or that when we might seem to miss the danger he was in or those of the Christian faith. In fact I see that as being rather selfish Americans if you ask me.
Now, can others speak out that are not in the middle of dealing with a mindset of murder toward others who are not of their own faith? Yes and you and I and everyone who is not dealing face to face with these people should speak out and support organizations that are doing something about the atrocities.
But, again, to be here in America with all our privileges, judging Rick Warren for being cautious and not offending the religion that allowed him to come which in fact hates the very thing his whole life and faith in built on… seems to make me wonder at the global detachment we have here.
be blessed,
iggy
November 5th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
I wonder if the Apostle Paul would have stayed silent concerning evangelism and the Gospel, and the persecution of the saints, and instead commend the Roman Empire for it’s ‘treatment’ of Christians…? Look how the apostles and even those who weren’t apostles acted in front of those ‘in power’, who had the power to kill them. Just look in Scripture, in Acts and the Letters. Syria invited Warren, they wouldn’t have killed him, not such a public figure, but he still stayed silent. What’s up with that???
This is just my opinion, but I think Rick Warren was afraid of persecution when he was on that trip. He was more concerned for himself and his image I think. I think he was ashamed of Jesus. Those poor Christians there, we need to always keep the persecuted church in our prayers guys. Yes, Rick Warren too, who instead of looking out for himself, which seemed to be the ultimate end of all of this, should be looking out for the interests of Jesus Christ. But remember Phil. 2:21!
We should be ashamed of ourselves sometimes, our lives are pathetically easy compared to theirs. Such faith! Amen.
Love,
Joe
But this is just my opinion based on all the things I’ve read on this subject.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
I do not think Rick Warren was ashamed of Jesus, it is just that sometimes we can get caught up with being too cute with our methodology. In a well meaning but unbiblical attempt to reach people we compromise, and Joe, your thought about Paul was good.
To appease anti-christ governments for evangelical purposes is a dangerous game. Let us remember that in America as well.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Well I was just going with Jesus’ Words, “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Mark 8:38, also in Luke 9:26.
The Apostle Paul had something to say on this too, I remember, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Rom. 1:16
I feel that sets up a case that in a situation like Pastor Warren was in, if we don’t take those opportunities for the Lord to be evangelical in nature, and if we beat around the bush, or make nice for our own sake, ignore the cries of our brothers and sisters, we deny our Lord. I think we’ve all been in this situation in essence, and I know I have, and I think if we’re honest, we can see that we’ve denied our Lord in situations before too. But not all should presume to be Teachers, because they’ll be scrutinized more. Rick Warren has been a Christian for admittedly a long time, and a Pastor a long time too, and this is a big bumble for such a mature believer. It’s something he needs to forsake and admit wrong in, I feel. I pray Pastor Warren will teach and do the right things.
I think these verses can be of great use and reminder to all of us today.
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” Matt.10:28-33
I think that speaks directly to not worrying about our own mortality before men, but that we must do our jobs as Christians and fear God. “Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.” 2 Cor. 5:11
I just wanted to say that, but yes, I pretty much agree with what you said. Good point at the end there, Thanks Rick!
Joe
November 5th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
And yet…what he said was the following:
Really sounds like he’s ashamed.
This standard that everywhere all the time Rick must proclaim what he believes is ridiculous. He is the author of a Times best selling book, he was invited to Syria by the Syrian government, and he is a pastor of one of the largest churches in the U.S. It’s pretty safe to assume that Syria knows his stance on Jesus.
Rick also said:
Quite frankly; I’m tired of Christians who claim some moral high ground because of a percieved violation.
If only God was going to judge me on what Rick, Bill, Mark, or Rob had to say or how they lived. Unfortunately at the end of my life, God will judge me on how lived not on how they lived.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Taken from the following report http://www.uscirf.gov/countries/publications/currentreport/2005annualRpt.pdf#page=1
I expect every Christian in every one of those countries to begin protests and a campaign to declare Jesus as Lord. Shame on me if I let them get away with being ashamed of Jesus.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Chris,
I agree with you. The fact is that is very few people can even begin to imagine the type of pressure that comes along with being in the public eye like Warren is. It is so easy for people to be armchair quarterbacks with pastors. It particularly irritates me because my father is a pastor, and I’ve seen this type of people my whole life.
Generally, I would add this, too. The amount of effort a person puts into criticizing a pastor is generally inversely proportional to the amount of work he or she actually does for the Kingdom. It’s like the women who would complain to my dad about the church not having enough nursery workers. When my dad would ask why they couldn’t volunteer, they would inevitably have some lame excuse.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Thanks guys for the good responses!!
Joe
November 6th, 2007 at 1:13 am
Hi Chris,
I am not being unforgiving here. I am simply reporting what is reported to be a fact. You can choose to take it or to leave it. But the truth will stand.
Rick Warren is known to be able to misinterpret scripture, many times for the sake of making a point that is not there. This means he is likely to be able to twist anything to his own advantage as well. I’m not saying that its 100% sure, but given the reports, 90-95% confidence is that Rick Warren had lied somewhere during his exchange with Joeseph Farah -of which he had no real need to.
Its ironic that while we are told to mistrust the syrian press, every ‘accusation’ against Rick Warren must be a lie, a misrepresentation or hyped-up anti-warren rhetoic or something. Is Rick Warren never wrong?
I am not assuming moral high ground nor i think anyone is assuming any such high ground, chris. I am simply reporting facts and asserting that RW is not all good as you may think him out to be and i urge you for your own spiritual safety, to be cautious when approaching his teachings in view of the fruit of his (questionable) character. Of course, the choice really at the end of the day IS yours and you answer to the Lord yourself, as you have said.
Phil,
People such as Macarthur critique RW badly. Many of the vocal anti-warrenists have done alot for the kingdom of God - just read their sermons and books! So i believe this generalisation is not true.
[generally... The amount of effort a person puts into criticizing a pastor is generally inversely proportional to the amount of work he or she actually does for the Kingdom.]
November 6th, 2007 at 7:51 am
Can I assume this is satire? Simply writing or saying “good” things does nothing for the Kingdom. Saying ≠doing.
A number of the folks who would fit under the label “anti-warrenists” certainly talk a good game, but observation of their additional words/actions suggests descriptions such as “cups which are clean on the outside but dirty inside” or “whitewashed tombs”.
Do I agree with everything RW does? Of course not! Do I agree with everything I do? Well, no. Is there anyone, apart from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who’s got it 100% right? I don’t think so.
Regardless of the pastor, we should not elevate them to some pedestal. And, by the same token, Lance, your Monday-morning quarterbacking of Warren, is lame, as well.
Every pastor has strengths and weaknesses, which, somehow, a huge number of self-righteous Christians just can’t stomach. In this particular case, RW’s strength is not deep hermeneutical exegesis, but rather it is in other areas of evangelism. In Johnnie Mac’s case, his strength is hermeneutical exegesis (though I sometimes disagree with his extra-biblical systematic conclusions) and not research.
So, when JM ventures in to areas of research (see “Truth War” & “Charismatic Chaos”), it is fair to criticize the shoddy research, but it is not fair to call him a “false prophet” or the like. In the same way, when RW makes poor hermeneutical choices (like he did earlier this year with Psalm 2:4, it is fair to criticize his poor exegesis, but it is not fair to call him a “false prophet” or the like.
Lance, your inference here could well be considered slander…
November 7th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
has anyone emailed, called, instant messaged, myspace messaged, text messaged, interviewed, or even done lunch with Mr. Warren on this issue? Before anyone spouts off their own 2 cents on the issue, you may want to see what he thinks.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
As much as I appreciate everyones views here I would question how much research is done before comments are made (in some instances). Not suprised to see I Monk go weak on Warren and flip flop. Many of us saw that coming a year ago. To bad to because Mike used to be a good source of info.
Warren is a salesman thats just a fact and he is selling Purpose Driven not Christianity. Rick would have did great in Amway since he is a master at networking. Rick had a very prescise plan of selling Purpose Driven through Pyro Marketing. And Warren carried out the plan with great skill and manipulation. Rick even predicted that Purpose Driven would sell millions before the fact. Not a act of God but a really savey business man.
Im amazed that people even refer to Warren as a pastor since Rick refers to himself as a rancher rather than a shepherd. Ricks problem is he wants to please man rather than God. Thats how Rick built Saddleback by asking what people wanted(instead of seeking the Holy Spirits wisdom) and then serving what the flesh wanted plus more.
Rick Warren is one of the best businessman of our time.
Pastor or Christian leader though?
Not in my mind.
But hey doesnt Rick and Kay do a lot of good things. Lets say the foundation they set (and let everyone know about it) to help fight AIDS. The foundation was called Acts of Mercy.
Go look at where the money went though. The 990 forms are a matter of public record.
On the foundation board (which Rick and Kay founded) the only paid board members were Rick and Kay at 63,750.00 for the year of 2004.
How was a major portion of the money spent (exactly 992,634.00) Was this spent to combat AIDS as this foundation was advertised?
No this money was spent on 3 programs that taught pastors and countries (such as Rwanda) Purpose Driven.
Rick relies on his agenda not Gods thats my biggest problem with Warren.
And he tempts others to follow in his footsteps by selling (and giving away sermons) instead of pastors falling on ther face before God and seeking His wisdom through the Holy Spirit.
But face it since Christianity is such a big business many pastors like this because they are to busy running their mega biz instead of preparing for a sermon that would truely speak to Gods people.
Hey we like easy thse days and have gotten lazy.
Plus even though the 990’s didnt show any illegal activity it really shows how disengenuious the Warrens are. In my opinion.
Peace
Tim
November 7th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
The more I hear Rick Warren’s critics, the more I believe they’re adding to the gospel.
Do you have to be all PDL in order to receive the gospel? No. Can you be? Yes. That is unless you’re Warren’s critics, then you have to look like, act, and be exactly like they would.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Chris L,
[A number of the folks who would fit under the label “anti-warrenists†certainly talk a good game, but observation of their additional words/actions suggests descriptions such as “cups which are clean on the outside but dirty inside†or “whitewashed tombsâ€.]
This is a generalisation. So how many percent are we talking here? 10%? 5% of all good talkers? I presented the general case and you are simply representing the minority case here - people who talk but have no action.
[Regardless of the pastor, we should not elevate them to some pedestal. And, by the same token, Lance, your Monday-morning quarterbacking of Warren, is lame, as well.]
It is a fact (check christianity today/newspapers etc) that people HAVE elevated (not 1 or 2, but a LOT) RW to being ‘America’s pastor’. So i am dealing with reported observations. Hence our so called quarterbacking is required because this RW is not some normal unknown pastor with little influence. Lets deal with reality here shall we?
Hmm … When you evangelise someone to a wrong God (or wrong understanding of a right God) the number of real believers made [at that moment of time] equals to zero. So RW strength is neither evangelism nor hermenutics, as any evangelism that RW has done is made useless when the believers were made not on the terms spelt out in the bible (i.e. in truth) but on some lopsided gospel or emotional gimicks.
Its like introducing 100000000000000 people to believe in the Jesus of the mormons: 0 saved at that point of time. Introducing 1000000000000000 people to a wrong jesus is the same as introducing them to other gods. No difference.
Although it can be said that some people THROUGH OTHER MEANS AFTER the faux conversion (repentance, etc) may really believe, those end-state real believers did not become real believers because of what RW did: they became real believers because they repented and found out the truth.
Maybe you should look at Matthew, which warns us of false prophets (the topic here)
[Matthew 7, NIV]
A Tree and Its Fruit
15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I bring your attention to verses 21-23.
Sure , these people do all kinds of things, including ‘evangelise’ and make these faux believers ‘twice the son of hell as they are’ (its a biblical verse). They also do all kinds of AIDS work too - anything to make up for the fact that their truth is not the truth at all. Their christianity is at odds with the truth - a works based , truth-minimised faith. One should do the former withOUT ignoring the latter. RW ignored the latter, hence nulifying the former. Notice that the Lord does NOT acknowledge them even if they did a million things connected to christ.
DO you think the job of a christian is to deal with poverty and AIDS and bring XX number of people to Jesus? Don’t be silly. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Jesus never solved poverty when he came, so forget solving it now. Jesus didn’t come up with a disease cure, he just cured as and when he wished to show that Jesus indeed was God, thats all. And certainly don’t ever run away with the idea that a christian must bring people to heaven, as if he/she could make a person believe - it is solely and completely the work of god - man acts as the conduit but even if this conduit misfunctions, God cannot be frustrated.
I do not know if JM does shoddy research. We could fault him for shoddy research, even slander, but certainy not heresy because heresy involves wrong facts about GOD not people. To call him a false prophet would be silly because wrong research facts about PEOPLE does not mean he has the wrong facts about God.
RW has the wrong facts about God AND he preaches it amd proclaims the false facts. So shall we call him misguided? If yes, do you think RW will call himself that? Obviously not - if he did he would have repented. Given the antiRW hype in cyberspace, RW already knows that many have taken notice in his errors. Instead of acknowledging them and correcting them, he simply prints more of the same book and rattles off the same kind of speech. Think about it. At a personnal level, RW is
1) willfully disobeidient
2) consciously repackaging the gospel (come on he has a Dr in his name) - - You sure he is misguided?
While it is true that every pastor has strengths and weaknesses, one weakness that CANNOT have is poor handling of the word. Because they are the ones who feed the flock , and it is in the bible. Check the 2 books of timothy
November 7th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
I will not entertain anymore on this topic. I think the truth will stand on its on. Chris et al you all can have the last word.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Gee, where have I heard that one before.