Looks like the Big K has found a new target in little old me. The problem is he’s got no idea what he’s talking about. I wrote:

“It is wonderful we have the scriptures, and that the common person can read them. But idolatry of the Bible itself has taken place. Unfortunately, if you bring up that issue its immediately spun as ‘you don’t believe the Bible’ which has some eerie similarities to ‘you’re not submitting to the pope’.”

To which he writes:

This is so absurd as to be laughable and if the leadership of OCC has any wisdom, and knows what’s good for them, they will be bringing their pastor in and demanding that he repent of such public nonsense. Far from idolatry of the Bible, what we actually have is an emerging church and new evangelical rebellion against obeying the clear Word of God in the Bible. Christian compromisers like Rob Bell, following in the apostate footprints of Brian McLaren, are busy casting doubt upon the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture in order to grind their emerging church axes against the genuine Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Of course, even if Silva had any credibility left he wouldn’t get real far since I preached this just 4 days ago. For those unwilling to listen to it here’s the point from the outline that was handed out before the sermon:

C. The Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
- Source of authority.
- Source of truth
- Available to everyone. 2 Timothy 2:2
- Everything should be checked by it. Acts 17:11

I want to urge everyone to email Ken Silva. Urge him to apologize and retract his statements about me as publicly as he attacked me. What’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, so if you want to email me and tell me I’m wrong go for it, I’ll be happy to read and respond to you, I don’t hide from what I say by posting anonymously, or by closing comments.

*****Update****
I emailed Ken personally about his lies. Here was his response:

O please. And how easily the words “slander” and “lie” roll off your tongue. You just feel free to post whatever you want to post. Know this, I will continue to do the same in the Lord.

I retract and apologize for absolutely nothing in regard to my supposed lying about you publicly. I copied exactly what you said and it now speaks for itself. In my view you are just whining and being double-minded.

Your statement is very typical of the neo-liberals within the emerging church and its new evangelical knock-off, which gives every indication of not taking the Bible as seriously as we who are Christians are commanded to do.

So my question would be which Tim would we believe? And a little advice for you: You’re a pastor and will be judged as such. If you can’t take the public heat of the Internet War you might try keeping quiet.

For Christ’s honor I labor,

  • Share/Bookmark
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 1st, 2007 at 11:14 am and is filed under Ken Silva, ODM Writers, Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+/- Collapse/Expand All

19 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 11:35 am

Two Christians believe the same thing about what the Bible is and what it teaches. But it is possible that one believer has a heart of worship and a humble brokenness that centers on Jesus Himself while the other man is obsessed with his systematic theology.

Both men espouse the same systematic theology. One man makes his theology an idol while the other man uses his theology to enhance his devotion to the Savior. I understand what you were saying, Tim.

2   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 12:05 pm

Christian compromisers like Rob Bell, following in the apostate footprints of Brian McLaren, are busy casting doubt upon the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture in order to grind their emerging church axes against the genuine Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Statements like this are so absurb I wonder what reality Ken is in?

First off Rob Bell is not my pastor, and i have really not read anything by him… As far McLaren, I still have yet to have these “Clear” statements that cast doubt on the authrotiy of scripture… I may agree and may not agree with him on points, but that is true with Calvin, Luther, Zwinger, Bob George, Chuck Missler, Dr J Vernon Megee, and on and on… but instead of disproving and showing Tim wrong, Ken shows Tim is right on with his statement!
He does not prove that Tim stated as falsehood he tosses out more accustations and slander that has nothing to do with what Tim stated!

Ken has lost it completely… and myabe way back in 2005 ken had some credibility… but all he does is blather on aobut others and never states what he position is.

So Ken, is the Bible the final authority or Jesus?

Is the bible equal to Jesus in its authority?

Do you hold that the written word is greater than the Living Word?

I don’t expet an answer… only more accusations and ranting about MCLaren and Bell… that will have nothing to do with the questions.

But, to me Ken does own an apology not just to you Tim, but to about every person he has ever talked about.

And a rose will not cut it… humility will

be blessed,
iggy

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 12:18 pm

“So Ken, is the Bible the final authority or Jesus?

Is the bible equal to Jesus in its authority?

Do you hold that the written word is greater than the Living Word?”

Iggy, those are questions that represent false dichotomies. Jesus is inerrantly reflected in the written Word but He can never be fully captured by human words. We do not worship a book but the Lord who is revealed in the pages of that Book.

4   nc    
November 1st, 2007 at 12:27 pm

Rick,
I don’t think those are false dichotomies.
It’s a question of “push/shove”.

Who is greater?
The book or the author?
You just answered the question well…
reflected in the written Word but He can never be fully captured by human words

thus the Author is greater.
If all we talk about is the Bible, but we don’t hear our speech saturated with language about Jesus….

i dunno…all I see in people like that is the need to see the Bible as an encyclopedia/rule book.

Newbigen says that when a culture becomes moralistic it has lost the Gospel.

He’s right.

5   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 12:41 pm

Rick,

Iggy, those are questions that represent false dichotomies. Jesus is inerrantly reflected in the written Word but He can never be fully captured by human words. We do not worship a book but the Lord who is revealed in the pages of that Book.

Not concerning eternal life… Jesus stated the scripture was to point to Him for eternal life John 5 teaches this… instead if we think we can find eternal life by just reading the bible we miss that the Life is in the Son… not the book.

So say that they are equal then states Jesus is not needed… we then can as the Pharisees believed, find eternal life in the scripture and have no need for Jesus. It is not a false dichotomy it is a dangerous lie from Satan.

Be blessed,
iggy

6   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Your statement is very typical of the neo-liberals within the emerging church and its new evangelical knock-off, which gives every indication of not taking the Bible as seriously as we who are Christians are commanded to do.

How easy the lies and slander role off his prideful tongue!

the more he speaks the more he buries himself in his own delusion…

REPENT KEN for slanderers will not inherit the Kingdom… and those who hate their brother show the truth is not in them. The more Ken speaks the more he shows which side of truth he really is… and it is not on the side of Jesus.

Continuing in prayer for blessings on you,
iggy

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 1:21 pm

I agree with both of you, but the written revelation and the Risen Christ are different but inseparable so forcing one to choose between the two as it applies to authority is confusing.

8   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 1:39 pm

It is they (ODM’s) that force the choice as they teach the bible is the final authority, while Scripture states Jesus is… so they confuse the issue on something that Scripture does speak clearly about….

Not to mention that Jesus taught about it in very plain language. It is their false dichotomy if there is one…

Blessings,
iggy

9   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 1:41 pm

Rick,

the other point is that Ken denies that there is bible idolatry out there… and in fact condones it by his statement… let us hope it is just out of ignorance.

Be blessed,
iggy

10   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 2:04 pm

The Bible idolatry issue is obvious on many levels. The KJV only people practice it, the people that rely on other exclusive versions practice it, and listen to this – we ALL sometimes practice it. Formulating and arguing doctrine disproportionate to praying is an example of Bible idolatry.

Using Scripture to destroy people is also handling the Word in the flesh. The Bible is the only written revelation ever given to the church, but ink on pages is not the full revelation of Christ only the full revelation to man. John lived with the incarnate Jesus but when he saw the Risen Christ he fell at His feet as though dead.

Obviously John’s earthly revelation was incomplete! And so is ours! I can’t wait!!

11   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 1st, 2007 at 2:18 pm

Well said Rick.

12   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
November 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pm

my pastor once said that our problem (speaking to a class of seminary students) was that we fell in love with the scriptures before we fell in love with God.

13   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 2:44 pm

What we need in the American Christian Church right now are some leaders who really want to fight a Truth War

This is one sentence that really bothers me and shows that they do preach another gospel… for there is only on church The Body of Christ…

Yet they speak of another “church” and the American gospel that represents it.

It has become one God under Our Nation… and that is the same as One God under the bible to me! It shows Kens lack of discernment for the real Gospel… but instead of a real answer we will just get “the axe grinding emergent church and its blah, blah blah…. and not give answer to the axe grinding that Ken does that is a fake gospel and a false god of hate clothed in self righteousness…

Ken needs to give account of HIS belief and doctrine… though is shows forth very well and is found wanting against the teaching of Scripture itself and against the Kindness of God Ken shows contempt for every time he writes a miss(ive)

it is that Ken needs to be called to account to the true God… Ken needs to give answer and not do like Adam and say… it was her fault… Ken needs to take responsibility for Ken and not point to others he thinks are worse than himself… that is a sad way to do a discernment ministry and an insult to those who are truly discerning.

Be blessed,
iggy

14   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 2:53 pm

John 5: 36″I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41″I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]?
45″But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

With these words Jesus, clearly states that some will be judged by the law, for that is here they sought their life… they went to Moses and the letter of the Scriptures instead of Jesus for eternal life. This is what is going on and what Ken is promoting. In that, Ken will get his just reward by the standard he puts on others. They have created a new law and have denied the Spirit.

Be blessed,
iggy

15   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 1st, 2007 at 3:28 pm

When we say the Words “Bible idolatry” we in no way seek to diminish their revelatory exclusivity and indeed nourishment to our souls. The Scriptures are the third greatest gift the Father has ever given to us, the first being His only begotten Son and the second the Holy Spirit. By the power of the Spirit they guide us into all truth and gloriously reveal the divine Messiah to the understanding of our hearts and with that salvation itself. They are a glorious treasure to be proclaimed, protected, and obeyed.

But ink was not shed for us, and paper did not suffer in our place, and pages were not beaten for our transgressions. We do not pray to a book no matter how miraculous the revelation, and it is not the work of a printing press that will breach the sky and return in unimaginable glory to this earth. The Bible is the inerrant and only written revelation God has sent, but even still we see through a glass darkly. We must never worship God’s revelation, we must bow and worship God Himself in spirit and in truth drawn by the power of the Holy Spirit and guided by the enlightenment of God‘s own Word.

But His blood was real not just a narrative; His suffering was felt not just told; His resurrection was in body not just literature; so let us be grateful for the miracle of God’s written revelation which is our only conduit to spiritual truth, but let us worship God and God alone.

And even going furthur, some today make their doctrines an idol. Like listening to a song on the radio and claiming you were at the concert; or even worse singing the song yourself and claiming the writer is singing, both remove an element of reality.

16   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
November 1st, 2007 at 8:14 pm

Your statement is very typical of the neo-liberals within the emerging church and its new evangelical knock-off, which gives every indication of not taking the Bible as seriously as we who are Christians are commanded to do.

Are you kidding me?

Taking the Bible seriously…we who are Christians. Puuhleeze! I just ate!

17   Joe C    
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 am

Amen Rick, that was a fantastic response. Very reasonable and very polite. I feel it was drenched in Christian love. And you know I’m not just saying this to puff you up. What you wrote is what we need more of. Thanks for that.

Joe

18   inquisitor    
November 21st, 2007 at 6:41 pm

I thought that the written word IS the living word. Am I mistaken?

19   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 21st, 2007 at 6:51 pm

inquisitor

Jesus is the Living Word and the written words lives because of who Jesus is… John 5 teaches this.

iggy