Marty is a fairly nice guy.
Certainly, he has his foibles: he drinks a bit, is harsh on the kids, has some problems with racial bigotry and the like. For many years, he was married to an unfaithful spouse. She slept around and was quite disrespectful of the entire institution of marriage. Finally, enough was enough, and Marty divorced her.
Years and years have passed, but every year on the date of the divorce, October 31, he pulls the family together for a rip-roaring divorce anniversary. It’s such a grand occasion where everyone in the family can come together and remember what a whore his ex- was, and how great it is that he traded her in for a new model (who, arguably, is not much better than the previous one, but just not as blatant about it).
Sounds like a grand old time, eh?
I have lots of friends who have gone through a divorce, and not a one of them do I know who consider the anniversary of their divorce to be a time to remember, let alone celebrate. Marty and his family, though, they revel in it, creating entire ceremonies around how great it was to give the old skank the boot.
Obviously, I’m dealing in allegory here, but I find it completely unsurprising that the same folks who celebrate the day of the greatest ‘divorce’ in church history, Reformation Day, are the very same ones who are pretty much tone-deaf when it comes to hearing Christ say ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. It all fits in the same flawed ’system’ they bought into when they traded one flawed spouse for another.
I also find it funny that these same folks will curse the harvest festival celebration which falls on the same day because of its ‘goulishness’, yet they will dress up and give out candy as an historical German figure known for writing such things like:
In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule– if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.
[...]However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts…
[...]Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire…
Second, that all their books– their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible– be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted…
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country…
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it…
[...]He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away.
[...]But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews’ synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God’s name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. For our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.
[...]If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews’ blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country.
They [rulers] must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did…
If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.
[...]My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews’ malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.
Given the choice between this guy (no, it’s not Adolph Hitler, though his works were well-used by der Fuhrer) and Freddy Krueger both handing out candy, I’m thinking the latter is less dangerous, since he’s a) fictional; and b) has no real associated world-view.
Do not get me wrong, there was good reason to depart from the direction taken by the systematic theology of the Roman Catholic Church, which was – and is – off the rails in many regards, though it is up to God to judge if it is so far off the rails as to be eternally damnable. The need for the split with the RCC was likely inevitible, for numerous reasons, but I can’t think of any reason to celebrate such a sad occasion as a massive church split.
Regardless, I like holidays because they create greater-than-normal interaction between people, and often result in greater opportunities for living and sharing the gospel, and I hope that any and all that celebrate tomorrow – for whatever reason – will find those opportunities, but will also keep the roots of the festival in perspective – be it a pagan fall harvest or a sad, massive divorce – and not fall into the traps of the roots…
_______________________
Update:
“Pastor” Ken Silva has seen fit to write an entire post based upon a single sentence in this article:
Clearly the writer of that post should stick to things he may actually know something about because this is exactly what the Refomation was; a judgement of God. Through the Reformers–His chosen instruments–the Lord condemned the spiritual whore which is the Church of Rome and called His children out of its apostate Roman Catholicism with its false gospel (see–Gal. 1:6-9). I for one, as a former Roman Catholic myself, will be eternally grateful that the Lord set us free from the sordid spiritual bondage of The Deceivers.
Wow – maybe I need to get a new Bible with books written in the 1500’s… So much for the sola Scriptura he claims to believe and hammers everyone else with.
My apologies, as I forgot that Ken is a prophet, to whom his “lord” speaks directly. I for one, will be eternally grateful that the Lord will one day set us free from the sordid spiritual bondage of The Deceivers like “Pastor” Silva. The Lord be praised that “Pastor” Silva is only pastor to 4 other poor deluded souls…
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
69 Comments(+Add)
harumph!
This whole post is a written urination on the blood of the reformers.
Reformation…a judgement of the Lord?
How exactly was the RCC judged?
there’s no evidence that the RCC has experienced judgement any more than God’s discipline of Protestants that ever more splinter and splinter and splinter…
yep…
what.
ever.
Didn’t take Ken long to write another post on this one. I love how Chris P. said “You are assuming (arrogantly) that all the contributors at CRN even bother to come here and see what rhetoric you are fertilizing the lawn with today.” Seems like the Gen Editor himself takes the time to make it over here on a regular basis.
I have always found it quite odd how people seem to think that the Reformation marks the penultimate form of Christianity. It’s like they realy believe Luther and Calvin had everything completely right and nothing else can be said about it.
Actually, I think it is that type of thinking that drives the majority of what ODM’s do. Their brand of Christianity is correct, and anyone disagreeing with them is obviously wrong.
In what other type of field do we take this sort of stand? For as much as Einstein advanced the study of Physics, his work was not the final word on the subject. It just seems so odd to me to take a stance that says we have theology completely right.
That update by Silva is hilarious. His complaints about the bondage of Rome are the height of hilarity as he and the rest of the watchdoggies heap up burdens on anyone who will listen to them. Perhaps someone should print out a copy of Galatians and replace the word “circumcision” with “calvinism”.
Amen Chris L,
That is the height of my thinking in this situation. I find it interesting that the actions of people can be classed as the judgement of the Lord as if the “holy” reformation is the Lords work, and any one under its movement.
People forget that true freedom is when one is born from above and not of any world system.
Catholicism -> *Protestantism = bondage
Heaven -> Christian = freedom.
*or any other man-made system
Anytime you use the word “whore” in a post, The Reverend Ken Silva will find something to blog about.
Maybe some of you oldies like myself can help me out.
My first introduction to the conservative Evangelical brand of Christianity was through John MacArthur’s church and its satellite campus organization when I was in college back in the mid 80’s. Was in various fellowship groups with people with strong ties to MacArthur’s church, and in the early 90’s for three years, I attended there.
My point is that through the 80’s and the early 90’s, I was deeply entrenched into the “Reformed” brand of Christianity. That is where I cut my teeth.
However, I don’t even remember people calling their theology “reformed.” It was called conservative, dispensationalist, biblical, Calvinist etc, but seldom “Reformed.” And I have no recollection of celebrating the anniversary marking the Reformation.
Only recently through reading the watchdog blogs, am I now seeing the renewed fervor for the Reformation roots of conservative Evangelicalism.
So is this just me? This whole preoccupation with the “Reformation” thing seems new and recent. I simply don’t recall any of this even though my life back then was saturated with conservative Evangelicalism (and not just any brand of conservative Evangelicalism, but the John MacArthur approved conservative Evangelicalism. Don’t you ever forget it).
No one is promoting a world system. I have even written songs based on th vereses you quote from Galatians.
The real problem is manifold:
You criticize semantics and rhetoric, and then employ the same methods yourselves.
You assume everyone at CRN is calvinist, another tactic you criticize, and then use.
You use my comment on another post out of context, again something you criticize.
You arrogantly assume that preterism and talmudic rabbinicalism are the only way to exegete scripture.
Scriptural literalists are gnostics, LOL.
Anyone using historical or cultural context as the lens of interpretation are the new gnostics.
There is only the Spirit and the Word.
The Bible is the lens through which all history, culture and religion is “exegeted”.
I have never been “entrenched” in the Reformation. I am a former roman catholic who left that false religion years ago, before I even knew anything about a Reformation.
I agree that the modern church is not the church. However neither is Rome, the ecm/emergent “movement”, dispensationalism or any other “move of God”
The Scriptures and history are one Word from beginning to end.
You fail to see what the Reformation was all about.
Rome’s judgment is that she is doomed to be what she is. Just as men suffer the penalty of their sisn in Romans 1. They are handed over to it.
As for splintering, who cares?
The whole “do unity” thing is not the unity taught in the Scriptures.
I could go on but why bother?
BTW why don’t you try visiting the personal blogsites of the CRN contributors? You may be surpriswed. However5 you don’t and won’t as “dialogue” is the veneer over the real agenda.
In reading this post and comments you almost make the Catholic church out to be some sort of indirect victim. To reduce the Reformation to a relationship that just didn’t seem to work out is one of the most laughable and far-reaching analogies I’ve ever read.
I’m not a Calvinist or a disciple of Luther at all, but I have to say that the Reformation represents at least the beginning of a departure from gross spiritual darkness (indulgences, Latin, Spanish Inquisitions, idolatry, blatant false religion, etc… an endless list).
For some, this is almost a mini-Exodus from Egypt.
The Catholic Church is not just some misled organization that happened to go off the rails a little. It blatantly disregards the Word of God and places its own rules (celibacy, praying to saints, Mary worship, etc.) above even Christ Himself.
I know you guys need material, but sometimes you go a little far out for it. Nice try though.
Chris P,
I personally have visited many of them… most (with one or two exceptions) resorted to name calling and mocking or banning me instead of having mature conversations… Most even tried to tell me what I believe as if they knew me better than myself and almost all defended themselves as not being accountable for what OTHERS write… so, so much for being accountable to each other as that is a big fat lie…
At least here, even a commenter like myself is rebuked and admonished at times… there, if you disagree, you are either not allowed to comment, argued with name calling and slanderous accusations about what you beleive and mocked, in fact most with one exception I do not see as being loving people at all, only arrogant and judgmental.. and there is one that teaches that it is mandated to judge others salvation and eternal destiny… (though he seems to change the story at a whim)
As far as theology, that is also a mixed bag where some teach baptismal regeneration and others teach against it… all seem to quote Spurgeon more than Jesus and Paul… and they seem to overlook that Luther was far worse a potty mouth than Driscoll ever has or will be as a Pastor…
So the point is “NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT ONE” and to think that you are more right than me… only shows that you and others at CRN do not beleive scripture when it teaches that and seem to think your righteousness surpasses that of Jesus in your open condemnation of others.
If I actually read something that had some real meat as far as accusations against others… from a biblical, not reformational stand I might listen, but since my biblical history goes back to Genesis and does nto begin in the 16th century… I think I will read it and study it historically and not in the Platonistic Dualism that is riddled throughout much of the “systematic theologies” out there.
Here is some food for thought… http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/2007/10/christoplatonisms-false-assumptions.html
Personally I stopped going to many of the site as all I read is hate and lies and bad theology and it sickens me.
Be blessed,
iggy
“Anyone using historical or cultural context as the lens of interpretation are the new gnostic. There is only the Spirit and the Word.”
so I guess at my next bible study I should just read the passage and then say “what is the spirit telling you.” Sounds like a reasonable practice if the spirit is all we need. I mean, when the scriptures tell us to not wear clothing made of two types o materials, we need not look at context, right? Just throw out all your polyester/cotton blend shirts! hurry! GO THROW THEM OUT!
Nathan,
Nope Gnostics were always great at picking and choosing what they wanted to beleive… and it seems so today with those who throw out the historical context…
Do you realize to do that is to throw out things like when Daniel predicted the exact day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem… Oh we don’t need historical context… Calvin and Luther and even Spurgeon are rolling in their graves over that one!
Blessings,
iggy
Chris,
Did you post your comments on the wrong thread?
???
This article has nothing to do with CRN – there’s no links to it (or any any specific article) on it, prior to the update from Ken’s article.
I do not assume that everyone at CRN is a Calvinist (though it’s funny that Ken disavows Calvinism in the same breath that he plants a ‘hill-to-die-on’ flag on the five solas), and – correct me if I’m wrong here – the Protestant Reformation is larger than Calvinism…
??? Where were you quoted?
I assume that the primary means of exegeting scripture begins with understanding it in the same context as those who first wrote it and those who first heard it would have understood it. It’s Hermeneutics 101.
As for preterism (actually partial-preterism), I admit it is a lens through which I interpret, though I try to take other eschatologies into account in alternate interpretations. As for talmudic rabbinicalism, though, I have been very careful in my commenting (even to the point of being called out by Paul C) to note that when I bring in Hebraic interpretation, I am bringing in pre-talmudic rabbinic understanding from the Second Temple period, and not post-Second Temple (unless otherwise noted).
[The very same folks that were very careful about copying and translating scripture prior to the invention of the printing press were also very careful about carrying down Josephus' works and other contemporary works from that period. The Dead Sea Scrolls also offer a window into the culture of the Second Temple period. So, it is possible to distinguish pre-talmudic from talmudic interpretation...]
Perhaps you need to brush up on gnostacism, Chris. Trying to use Greek/Western methods of exegesis combined with platonic dualism and Greek fatalism are at the heart of gnosis, and have lead to an exact parallel with gnostacism. I’m confused, though, as I didn’t mention gnostacism in the article (nor hermeneutics, for that matter)…
Who said you were?
Actually, for better or worse, the modern church, Reformed, Catholic, ECM, Dispensationalist, Evangelical, etc. is all part of “the church”. We’re back to John 3.
The point being? If you’re trying to back up Ken’s assumption that the Reformation was “God’s judgement” on the Catholic church, you’re being just as presumptiously silly as he is. The Reformation was man’s way of affecting a radical change in the practice and belief of the church, and a split was probably the only way it was going to come about.
The Reformation was about giving up hope that the church could be reformed from within, and that a break from the Catholic church was the only way by which the church could be brought back to what God intended it to be. I do not doubt that it had to happen, but that’s a far cry from saying it is something to celebrate.
Rome’s judgment is that she is doomed to be what she is. Just as men suffer the penalty of their sisn in Romans 1. They are handed over to it.
Apparently, God does.
From Ephesians 4 (though the entire chapter applies):
I would also add in Romans 12, Galatians 5 and 6, I Peter, I John 3, and many other entire passages of scripture.
It most certainly is, and the way that CRN and other Christians (including us) frequently ignores this “proves” to the world that the Way of Christ is not better than the way of the world…
Actually, I and others here do. You still haven’t responded to the person who visited your site and your church’s site the other day, and asked about how your mission statement is any different from what might be found at a PD church.
You’ll also notice that the outside-linked blog in the original article is from teampyro – not CRN….
Yes, but only if you consider the meaning of Catholic (as in, universal) to be different than Roman Catholic.
I agree, as well, but once again, despite some – I would estimate – heretical practices when it comes to what was taught by Jesus as the Way, it is still up to God to judge whether or not they are the “whore of Babylon” and that their extra-biblical systematic theology is a damnable offense. In the same manner, it is up to God to judge whether or not the extra-biblical systematic beliefs of Calvinism, Arminianism and other -isms are damnable offenses.
This article deals with the self-righteous need to celebrate a divorce in the Catholic (Universal) church, not the Roman Catholic Church.
As for doing away with inquisitions and atrocities, perhaps you’re not all that familiar with Calvin and the reformers, or figures like Michael Servetus, Luther’s treatment of Jews (mentioned above), and the Reformer’s actions toward others who disagreed with their particular brand of Christianity…
Don’t waste your keystrokes on Chris P. He’s not interesting in any sort of real exchange. His past behavior demonstrates this, but also his words in this case: “However5 you don’t and won’t as “dialogue†is the veneer over the real agenda.” As we’ve noted in the past discussion is anathema to watchdoggies. Chris P’s entire point was to create a crapstorm with his comments, not to do anything remotely constructive.
Just wondering – if you’re going to celebrate Reformation Day by dressing up as Luther and giving candy to your children, after you hand out your treats, shouldn’t you go down the street and run your Jewish neighbors out of the subdivision?
Chris L said: it is still up to God to judge whether or not they are the “whore of Babylon†and that their extra-biblical systematic theology is a damnable offense.
Again, you minimize the situation here by referring to their practices as “extra-biblical”, insinuating that they may be a little off-base, but it’s too hard to tell. I would counter that in many – if not all – areas they are not extra-biblical but anti-biblical.
Despite their anti-biblical ways, they go even further… I was born a Catholic (amazing how you can be born Catholic just like a person is born Indian or Italian) and over the 20 yrs (before the Lord began the salvation process) I was never once called to account for my actions or understood the message of salvation. All I would have to do is confess to a priest, say 5 Hail Marys and 4 Our Fathers and all was OK. No call for true repentance or even an understanding of it.
To me there greatest offense is that the message of the gospel has been completely swallowed up.
As I said, I am no Luther supporter (especially in light of his view on Jews, and I’m sure others) but he was part of beginning something that would evolve and pave the way for truth. He didn’t have truth in many ways, but seems to have been used by God to do what he did.
If only the ODMs would give this kind of grace to other Christians who aren’t exactly like them.
Calvin killed a man because the “heretic” didn’t believe in child baptism. Luther advocated the killing of Jews. Sounds like the kind of grace only the ODMs would love.
When did the evolution stop? Is it still continuing?
Luther seems to be the poster-boy of the Reformation but there were other movements, though lesser known, that had already broken free of the grasp of the harlot system – otherwise known as the Catholic Church. But they had to tread carefully on pain of death and torture.
How many people died in the Inquisition? Millions. How many people were falsely led into believing their participation in Crusades would guarantee salvation? How many purchased their salvation with indulgences? How many people were slaughtered in the name of just war by the RCC directly or indirectly?
There’s a scripture that comes to mind…
Rev 19:1-4: “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.”
CRN.info will definitely have something to say against these “ODM types” I’m sure.
The problem I see with many posts and posters on this site is that you claim to call for grace when what you’re really calling for is compromise. Anyone who refuses to compromise… you tend to get quite upset.
We are all sinners in desperate need of salvation, but let the arrow fly straight and true.
How many Jews were killed/persecuted because of what Luther taught?
And how many Palestinians are dying because conservative Evangelicals’ unconditional support of the nation of Israel?
Probably 0.5% of the number the RCC was responsible for throughout its reign.
Many people we’ll never know of, whose names are lost to history, stood much closer to the truth than he did during his time. He had the name recognition and know-how.
I can’t figure out for the life of me why everyone here seems to sympathize with the poor, little RCC. Ridiculous.
Paul C,
I can tell you why I do. Every Catholic I’ve gotten to know has treated me well, and, though there is a lot of disagreement the basic gospel is there. That may have to do with living in a decidedly non-Catholic area means that being to be Catholic you have to really want to be Catholic.
The RCC teaches salvation by works, Mary as co-redemptrix, purgatory, sin forgiveness through priests, and man other falsehoods. They are not a true church although there may be some believers in their midst.
Tim, I’m all for human decency despite what culture or religion a person adheres to. I agree that there are many nice Catholics just like there are many nice (fill in the blank for whatever religion or culture you like – even athiest).
I also agree that it’s the living out of faith that determines your faith (I fail miserably at times, believe me). But the area I think you are missing it is that you simply see the RCC as differing by degrees from some biblical premises. As an institution – though some good people are there I agree – they are hardly even Christ-centered. Mary holds just as much, if not more, allegiance, as do there many rituals and sacraments.
While you see the whole thing as just a messy divorce, I think many people see it as an Exodus. Know what I mean?
I agree Rick. It’s the simple truth.
The whole point of Chris’ article wasn’t to defend the RCC at all. The point of it was that it seems ridiculous to celebrate an event that, though necessary and for the good, was still a harsh thing. If anything we should remember the event with fear and trembling.
It would be a bit like celebrating having your wisdom teeth pulled. Sure, it was necessary, but it was still a painful event.
Paul C,
Here’s my biggest problem. People like Ken Silva foam at the mouth and scream that the RCC is the whore of Babylon.
Reasonable individuals quote from various papal edicts and councils, and I’ve read most of them and the conclusions in them are tragically flawed. The problem is my actual experience I don’t run into Catholics who refer to Mary as “co-redemptrix”.
So now I have to choose. I mean other than choosing to ignore the rantings of watchdoggies about Catholics. Do I read Catholic documents and reject every Catholic based on those documents? Or do I listen and react to actual Catholics?
Phil – that depends on whether you see it as a tragic marriage blown apart or an Exodus. Your simplistic view of how great an event this is might be skewed by your experience, others may see in the same way a nation rejoices when a dictator is finally overthrown (though usually to be replaced by one equally as harsh – that’s another story).
Tim – what do you call the very prayer “Hail Mary” – where they ask someone who is dead (Mary) to “pray for us sinners”? That’s just scratching the surface. Go into any church and you’ll statues of Mary, often with the more diminuitive child/baby Jesus.
Tim – The issue is not the individual Catholic, it is the ecclesiasitcal structure itself. They do not teach the truth.
I do not believe the Bible teaches the observance of days.
That’s pretty much the same argument you made before.
Tim – I’m afraid that you’re so busy defending a position here rather than the simple truth that is laid before us all. Defend the RCC if you will but I would recommend you do so through the lens of scripture.
I don’t see many places where the outright and unapologetic disregard of the Bible (I believe this is covered under Papal Infallability or Papal Succession that allows them to bind whatever they want) as being acceptable to the apostles.
My single point is that the Reformation (for all of its flaws and flawed characters) can be viewed almost as the equivalent of the Exodus for the Jews.
That’s completely untrue. The hope (as evidenced both by writings of the reformers and the very terminology that we use) was for reform. As in the changing of the church, not an exodus away from the church.
Paul,
How exactly is my view “simplistic”?
My view is that is easy to look back and see one side as all wrong and the other as all right, but in reality it’s more complicated than that. Overall, the Reformation was a good thing, but it still was a sad thing. Even if it was a part of a judgment from God, I don’t think God delighted in the fact that things had gotten to a place where such a thing was necessary.
Sure the RCC has done a lot of evil things. So have Protestant churches through the years. It is just harder to pin everything on Protestants in general because they are so splintered. In America, we had Protestants killing each other in the Civil War. Is one side of institutionalized religion viewed as less evil by God?
Tim – that si why the term Reformtion is misleading. It wasn’t a reformation, it was the birth of Protestantism. It was a departure from the Catholic church as well and the exodus metaphor does fit. The teachings of the RCC have decieved hundreds of millions, and although we have no substantive evidence, it is not a stretch to believe it may play a negative role in these last days.
Even the current pope proclaims themselves as the one true church.
That’s eventually what it became. That’s not what was wanted. Luther died proclaiming himself still a faithful son of the church. While those claiming to be his ideological descendants are busy anathematizing the RCC, he intended to restore the RCC.
Of course Luther had some RCC grave clothes still intact, but he never realized the expansiveness of God’s plan. In the end he gave up on the Rcc also. This is not rocket science, the RCC is a false church and we can not join hands with them on anything.
That’s right Rick – this is very, very clear and simple.
And here we come to the crux of the matter.
You: The RCC is terrible just look at these documents.
Me: What about these RCs who teach the gospel?
You: Just look at these documents!
OK, I finally went and read the article on Pyromaniacs, and I have to say the thing that is described is downright weird. Having someone dressed up as Martin Luther come in and hand out candy? Very odd, indeed.
I’m surprised they don’t have a fake boxing match between Martin Luther and the Pope. It could be refereed by Erasmus.
The documents that come from Vatican II are authoritative. A catholic person who teaches the true gospel is incongruent with Catholic teachings.
I just hope that as Phil is dressed as Luther… he watches his language around the kids…
iggy
I will say this, though. Martin Luther would never have been accepted by those who champion him now. He was a drinker, used strong language, was given to temper, a vitriolic anti-semite, and still believed in some forms of catholic doctrine. Hardly a Sprugeon or MacArthur. And I think it is unbiblical to call your church by a man’s bame which Paul adressed in I Corinthians.
The idolization of man is alive and well today.
Rick,
Can you say… hypocrite… vipers brood! Jesus did white washed tombs!
It makes you wonder (as I noticed some “misspeak” and back-peddling by MacArthur concerning anti semitism after stating some rather anti Semitic statements) that maybe there is more to this Luther worship and idolization… that maybe some of those beliefs are also carried on deep in the hearts of Luther’s worshippers.
Now, I am not stating the Lutheran is like this as most Lutheran doctrine has been purged of the lower based vulgarities of Luther… and reaches to his high points… but it seems that some purge only what fits them and raise the man above and give homage to him.
I see that many fall into this… they turn from the One who called them by Grace and follow their own way of “rules” such as “becoming a disciple before regeneration”… (how can anyone do that?) Or that one must accept Jesus as Lord… yet Jesus’ own words state that many that call Him Lord He will say He never knew…
Lordship salvation is just a replacement for the Salvation prayer (that magic incantation of salvation) or the “come to the Alter” or even worse the adding Repentance as a work to grace…
“What can I do to be saved” was asked of Jesus and His reply was “be perfect as God is perfect” and “Perfectly obey the law” and Steve Camp tried to tell me that it was a biblical way to salvation… yet we are to do nothing except trust in what Jesus did… that is gospel… not dressing up a Luther and giving candy… Maybe dressing as Jesus… but not Luther.
Be blessed,
iggy
Rick,
You don’t celebrate any days? The Bible is full of celebrating of days.
Rick,
You wrote:
You must not have read the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy (among others). God is very much a God of celebration, where days (and weeks) are remembered for the great things He has done, and where the experience of the community is vastly important.
Additionally, in the outline of the Mosaic Covenant, which we refer to as the Ten Commandments, one of the ten is an observance of days – the seventh day of each week. The difference between the celebrations outlined in the Hebrew Scriptures and the ones like Halloween, Reformation Day, Independence Day and the like is that the latter are tied to remembrance of human events and the former to key aspects of God…
I think Paul taught that true worship no longer centered on the observance of days.
wow.
my favorite part of this thread was the comparing of the body count because of bad theology.
as if 1 death from bad theology is somehow less a tragedy.
Whether you attend an RCC church or not, it’s still part of our story and even post-reformation nobody gets to claim the highground when it comes to death effected in the name of God.
Can you say “manifest destiny”?
That was a particularly Protestant American agenda…
Yeah. the RCC is just the epitome of evil.
Get over it.
Phil,
I think you are on to something as it seems when there is an emphasis on the “institution” is the top priority we replace the person… Now in that we replace the Persons…
Galatianism is about doing just that…
Paul states so in Galatians 1: 6-7
The issue is that we replace God who calls us with “whatever” even hierarchical systems (RCC) or that the Bible is the “final authority” which negates its own teaching that Jesus is.
They replace Jesus with “little laws” and then complain about others compromising… they not only have compromised, but perverted the Gospel… and I will not mince words about it.
So, to replace Jesus and say the Bible is the “final authority” as was done in the reformation… and to also then say the Bible replaces the Holy Spirit (not in words but in actions and in theology where they say some gifts are no longer effective) we see that there is a Bible worshiping reformed group that has cut themselves off from Christ Jesus and now live under the Bible teachings without the True Author who give all authority and teaches sound doctrine from that authority.
IOW, the Reformation for all its good has gone too far in some areas and taken to its wrong conclusion… instead of staying with Christ as our very Life… we now reduce this Life to a future thing and say it is not effected now… we negate the Kingdom and the King… and get… institutionalized religion and a book of law in its place.
Religion only leads to pride, prejudice, fear, and shame… instead of dealing with it, the religionist wants to drag down those who have found THE LIFE.
Be blessed,
iggy
Iggy,
I’ve been thinking along the same lines. It is wonderful we have the scriptures, and that the common person can read them. But idolatry of the Bible itself has taken place. Unfortunately, if you bring up that issue its immediately spun as “you don’t believe the Bible” which has some eerie similarities to “you’re not submitting to the pope”.
Tim R,
I know that is the “Spin” but worse was when I was talking (using that very loosely) with Tony Rose who tole me I was “in need of psychological help” because I believe that the Bible only has authority because of the Author… then I quote Spurgeon who stated the same thing and was told I was misquoting him and that I was abusing Spurgeon to make my point… then they gave me a quote which restated what I just had said and told me again I was wrong and horrible…
They insisted that the Bible and Jesus are One… and I agree to a point, but the Bible is dependant on Jesus… but they do not see it that way.
Jesus even stated about Himself that the Father was Greater… as He was dependant on the Father… so to say that the Bible is dependant on Jesus does not give one a low view of Scripture. In fact I find that the more I realized that the bible was all about Jesus… that Jesus and the bible became more important to me. (Not that it was not important to me in the first place)
The point is that to raise the bible as equal means that it then in and of itself give on eternal life… it cannot and Jesus stated so Himself and the Bible states that the Life is in the Son…
So Tony Rose and others proved to me that they worship the Bible as equal to the Person… we are not called to the Bible but to the Person of Jesus Christ.
Again this places scripture in it’s proper place and elevates Jesus and the bible more in its authority rather than diminish it… to worship the bible is to remove Jesus as the final authority and so diminish both Jesus and the bible and make human rationalization the God of their religion.
And Ken says we are the “man lovers” but it is them.
Be blessed,
iggy
[I also find it funny that these same folks will curse the harvest festival celebration which falls on the same day because of its ‘goulishness’, yet they will dress up and give out candy as an historical German figure known for writing such things like]
Hmm if this is an instituited form of celebration, then reformers ought to lament and repent over their ways. But the critical question i have to ask is this: are the ‘reformers’ who dress up as luther and give out sweets ‘true’ reformers in the first place? Or are they the ‘black sheep’ of the reformers? No where in the reformers’ writing can we ever find them advocating such an act. hence it is likely these candy givers are aberrants.
Its as good as finding Brain Mclaren and using him as the absolute definition of a true christian – a wrong example.
Well, i’m against reformation day for a simple reason: no where in scripture are we called to celebrate the following
1. reformation day.
However if we apply the same rule, we ought not celebrate christmas and easter as well, because
a. they are actually pagan festivals in origin
b. the date of christmas is wrong. Shepherds do not let their flocks out in winter – christianity should not celebrating falsehood.
c. Easter is named after the pagan godness ‘Istar’.
Since we are told to be separate, it fits the bible to NOT observe these 2 days. instead, we celebrate the Lord’s ressurection all the time instead of a special day called easter. In fact it makes more sense to celebrate reformation day vs christmas and easter because
a. The day is accurate – go refer to wikipedia.
b. the event is not used to replace halloween but it just happened at the same time.
Biblically, while people do have the bilbical freedom to choose to celebrate certain days as scared, they cannot force all people to celebrate these days unless biblically commanded.
So observation of reformation day, like observation of christmas and easter, is an individual decision and one ought not be ‘compelled’ to celebrate them unless explicitly called to do so by the Bible.
Lance, there are no sacred days anymore except the day when Jesus calls His church home and only I know that date.
Lastly, i know this is a stumbling block to the writers in this blog, but we do not do things for the sake of depriving ourselves joy. Even the chief end of man is to glorify god and ENJOY him forever.So in the aspect of the key role of man, joy is not an option. It is a must.
So why does it urk anyone that the reformers celebrate and thank God for something they believe to be a wonderful thing?
Is not God being enjoyed in? was not the reformation correct? Why shouldn’t the reformers or even, the Protestants (charismatics, evangelicals) celebrate the leaving of a church that was in true, accurate fact, preaching falsehood? (i.e. RCC)
If you are crying over it, are you telling RCC that the decision to split was wrong? While it is comendable to cry over the loss of millions of souls, is joy also not an propriate option?
While you all cry to God, they celebrate to God. Are not both of you God-centred? If so, why do you all insist that one emotion is more appropriate over the other?
Yet because the chief end of man is in the enjoyment i.e. the sowing of joy in God, the reformers are more appropriate in their emotions because God, who we should rejoice in, is far greater than the millions of RCC who are condemned to die for apostasy. Hence the joy of celebrating God’s work in saving all protestants from RCC ought to outweigh the saddness we have for them.
pls refer to what david did AFTER his son died. He was no longer sad. he comforted his wife and brought about another son. He was joyful in God thoughout his life. never did he once (biblically) lament for his son after his son died.
so was David wrong?
Rick, i am refering to scripture.
[Romans 14] 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
some consider days e.g. easter or christmas or reformation day more sacred but he/she must be fully convinced biblically.
Rick
[Lance, there are no sacred days anymore except the day when Jesus calls His church home and only I know that date. ]
know the date?? Are you referring to the second coming?
1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
Humor Lance.
Lance,
Welcome to Ricks sense of humor…
iggy
Wow, Lance.
Jesus grieving over the lost people of Jerusalem…
what a betrayal of himself.
Lance,
.
I totally agree! Surprised?
iggy
Chris P: BTW why don’t you try visiting the personal blogsites of the CRN contributors?
OK.
editor.blogspot.com — darn, that didn’t work
editor.livejournal.com — nope, that one didn’t, either
Oh, I know.
editor.wordpress.com — strike 3, you’re out
Oh well. I tried.
Don’t forget editor/teacher@sliced.spawned.com
lol… i think iam still lost with respect to Rick’s sense of humor. Again.
Hi iggy,
I agree with myself too. Surprised? lol (OK this is a bad joke)
Nc
Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So was Jesus joyful or sad? You should know far well that not everyone will be saved because of what Jesus had done on the cross: buddhists muslims jews who remain obstinate will end up dying.
And because this is an one-off opportunity, it means that Jesus was joyful in executing and planning the events that lead to 1) salvation of the elect 2) condemnation of most of people e.g. those in Jerusalem who he crie for.
Human beings having the emotional range of a teaspoon does not imply God has to follow the same pathethic emotional range.