head for the hills
Posted by Nathan on Oct 25th, 2007
2007
Oct 25
didn’t Jesus pull out of the world when it got really sinful? What on earth would Jesus have to do with sinners? I mean, why bring light to the darkness when the light can all hangout together. Didn’t Jesus also make his decisions on where he would go based on how godly the political decisions were. I am pretty sure that was the case, right? I could be wrong.
October 25th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
I think the difference it between Adult and Children.
October 25th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
If you believe that God willsave only the ones He wants and you play no productive role, then let them all go to hell and rejoice in what God is doing.
October 25th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
I hope to teach my future kids how to exist in the real world and deal with it. I know it sounds harsh, but they have to learn how to deal with what is happening and engage it in a positive way.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
This is one issue I can see some common ground with Ingrid on, honestly. The truth is that there are some people teaching in schools who I wouldn’t want teaching my dog. I do think there are a lot of good teachers as well, but I guess it has to be a case by case basis.
The problem, again, is that Christians tend to try and make their individual decision normative for everyone.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
This is the very reason my wife and I choose to keep our children in the public schools.
Sure we could get all knee jerk and yank them out everytime something that comes down the pipe conflicts with our value system. The truth of the matter however is that parents are the greatest influence in their childrens lives. This includes teaching them that God is not greater than the world. Certainly he isn’t strong enough to keep them safe from the *gasp* homosexual “agenda”.
As a youth pastor I’ve repeatedly seen Christian parents abdecate their God given roles of training their children in the way that they should go. Most Christian parents I know don’t do evangelism. So how would their kids ever learn how to be salt and light in a dark world.
Some of my favorite verses: (all paraphrased from the Chris Paytas version of the bible)
“Where there is light there shall be no darkness”
“Father I pray that you don’t remove them from the world”
” I have overcome the world”
“If you abide in me you will bear much fruit”
“Do not worry”
“The peace that surpasses all understanding”
“I will never leave nor forsake you”
“I am sending one that will allow you to do all these things and even greater”
“You are the salt of the earth”
“You are a city on a hill”
“You are no longer of the world but you must live in the world”
“Father I pray that you don’t remove them from the world but that the evil one would not prevail over them”
When church will we stand on all the truth of Gods word? Instead of picking and choosing the scripture that aligns with our viewpoints.
The truth is their are some people in my church who I don’t want to teach my kids about Christ. *wink*
October 25th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Always have to make it a “calvinist” issue eh?
I will guarantee that if every christian in the U.S. were part of public schools we would see no notable difference in the number of those coming to the Lord.
The problem is not the mass withdrawl from a lousy educational system It is what is being presented as the “gospel”.
This post is a crock.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Nathan,
With respect, you don’t have a clue what you will do until you have kids. I know that sounds harsh and unfair, but it is what it is. Before I had kids I would have been there waiving the pom poms with you. While I agree with you to an extent, I’ve chosen an alternative to public education for my oldest and part of the reason was there were things I wanted her to learn and some I didn’t. It’s hard for me to see how I’m supposed to just say, “Well, my five year old just needs to learn how to deal.” That isn’t to say that she’ll stay in private education all her life, or that all of my kids will but for now, it’s the choice that we’ve made for my daughter and if you don’t like you can…well, you can head for the hills. (sorry I couldn’t resist) but don’t think you know for sure what you’ll do because until you hold that little one in your hand and watch him or her grow up you don’t know what you’ll do until you’re there.
Besides all of that, I see this as a liberty issue.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Chris Paytas,
Here’s what I don’t get when this issue comes up. Both sides mock the other. It’s at least implied in your post that you are somehow a better, more godly parent than I am b/c you put your kids in a public school. You must trust God more than I do because I send my daughter to a Christian school. Now, I doubt you’d ever say that to my face, but that’s how your post reads. And, yes, I know you can find posts galore where the christian school/homeschool crowd does the same thing to you.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Chris P,
so, you would say that Ingrid is wrong? That the issue is not the schools, but the church. Hmm… not so much of a crock now, is it?
October 25th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Another useless drive-by comment by Chris P. I wonder if there’s any problem in the history of the entire universe of problems he doesn’t blame on his brothers and sisters in Christ.
I, for one, encourage all watchdoggies and watchdoggie supporters to pull their kids from public school, and the public in general, because the less contact the general public has with them, the more likely they will actually engage and listen to Christians.
October 25th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Joe my apologies for my implication that I’m more Godly than you. This was not my intent.
In the hopes of clearing my *cough* good name. My views are less about parents choices and more directly a response to Ingrids post about how to deal with the situation.
October 25th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Apology most def accepted. BTW, this quote T
I absolutely agree with 100%
October 25th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Chris P,
Where in this post does it mention Calvinism? In fact i had not seen the word brought up until you did… so the only one I see making it a Calvinist issue is you!
Sorry, but the truth will set you free bro!
Be Blessed,
iggy
October 25th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Tim R,
I wonder if he even reads the posts anymore… he just seems to come by and complain about us complaining and whine about being a Calvinist…
I liked it when he tried to actually say something.
Be Blessed,
iggy
October 25th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
At least, in this case, the watchdoggies are living what they preach and withdrawing into their corner of the blogosphere.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
in war that would be called a retreat… it usually means that side is losing…
You draw your own conclusion…
Be blessed,
iggy
October 26th, 2007 at 8:29 am
I think Chris P’s comment about Calvinism was in response to Rick’s early comment on the thread.
I agree with those who have said that the problem here is that everyone who has an opinion on this issue (not here, but in general) has decided that what they do is what all True Christians must do. (I want to specifically exclude Joe from that sentence because he was very careful to make sure his comment did not come across like that).
My oldest just started kindergarten. He is attending the public school. It helps that many of our close Christian friends have their children at the same public school, so they have a support group and friends that look after them.
Much of my decision on this issue came from when (before I had any school age children) I was on the school board for the local Christian elementary school. I found that the teachers at the Christian school were good, and that the parents and the other members of the board truly wanted the best, Godly things for the children, but it seemed very legalistic and surface-based. I didn’t want my child growing up thinking that to be a Christian he had to meet XYZ external goals or patterns, especially when a large chunk of XYZ were rediculous.
I think it is a personal issue that must be based on many factors and on a case-by-case basis. It is irresponsible and legalistic to shout from the mountain tops that either choice is “THE Christian Choice.”
That’s just my 2 cents.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Iggy, regarding your “war” analogy I wouldn’t start your foaming at the mouth just yet. Last time I checked, the war being waged extends a little bit beyond the web.
Now here’s an ignorant statement if I ever heard one - laced with (to use a favored word on this site) “vitriol”:
Tim said: I, for one, encourage all watchdoggies and watchdoggie supporters to pull their kids from public school, and the public in general, because the less contact the general public has with them, the more likely they will actually engage and listen to Christians.
Riiight, the only reason the “unchurched” are not flocking to the church en masse is because of those pesky gatekeepers, otherwise known as “Christians” (in contradistinction to the more descript “Christ-follower”).
October 26th, 2007 at 8:45 am
BTW, we homeschool our children so I guess we fall into some of your stereotypical molds. It’s been a great (and challenging) experience. That being said, nowhere will you find us pressuring others to do the same. I appreciate the balance of some comments above (like Joe’s).
From my observations though, in reality I usually see Christian children being led astray by the world, rather than the other way around. I’m sure there are exceptions to this, but the reality of what our children face (for over 8 hrs a day, everyday) takes it toll and appears difficult for parents to undo in the hour (if that - actually dad’s spend less than 20 minutes of quality time with their children a night on average) they have is indeed a battle…
October 26th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Paul C,
I am not foaming at the mouth at all… I just noticed that though this “war” seems to be going on in the minds of some… I have had many attacks from people… mostly on the personal side, yet have yet to be proved such a heretic in what I do beleive as far as salvation.
Now, instead, I get potshots that mean nothing… and then when I confront them on their own beliefs by their own standards, I find that they turn and run instead of give an answer to the hope that is with in them…
Ken never gives answer.
Chris P. has stopped giving answer.
The issue is this… these guys cannot convince me to beleive what I do not. Meaning that they tried to tell me what I beleive so that I will be that heretic they claim I am and instead I seem to only see more and more how shallow they beleive…
Ken again give no answer only put downs and name calling.
Chris P when confronted with his own words tells me to shut up…
So tell me… I am here and still on the web and ministering in my church… even after having two websites that slander me and attacked me… and having even been attacked for (Gasp) calling people to pray blessings on Ken Silva (gasp) on CRN…
I think it is apparent that they are either find a new strategy or have failed and are licking their wounds… as the more vitriol the attacks are on CRN and such the more they are becoming caricatures of themselves and less and less coherent! LOL!
IOW they are imploding and losing favor from their supporters as no real christian wants to be known by his connection to people who hate people in the Name of Jesus.
So… they can keep all the “sinners” out of their churches and keep them at four or less… and we will take them in and minister to them the gospel of Christ and disciple them in the Way of Jesus.
I have come to not fear them at all… even when Tim Bell prays that God punishes me…
BTW, the war was a farce anyway…
Be blessed,
iggy
October 26th, 2007 at 9:06 am
There is no guarentee concerning our children, the spirituality of the home is the most imporatant issue. Remember, God homeshooled Adam and he still rebelled and I m sure we won’t question God’s parenthood.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:25 am
You’re right Rick. I completely agree and am under no illusion that somehow we can save our children by homeschooling. In the end, they are in the hands of the Lord. Modelling Christ (as much as possible, laden with our own faults as we are) is key, as is providing a solid home environment.
As parents we are charged to shepherd and protect those the Lord has entrusted to our care.
But we need to face the facts that the home is failing in general - Christian and non-Christian. It is a battleground we are sorely losing for the most part. I’m not trying to be hysterical here at all, but these are the facts.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:04 am
BTW on home schooling versus public schooling… I am on the fence… or rather it depends on the school system we are talking about.
I had friends who pulled their kids out becuase their kids told them about two girls making out in the hall and the teachers not doing anything about it…
Yet, I know that some children have had trouble adjusting from the protective environment of the home school situation as they entered into college… they had trouble with making good descisions… but then again so did I coming out of public school… soooo….
It depends on you, your school system and your child…
be blessed,
iggy
BTW the “war” thing was a bit off topic… sorry.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:16 am
I grew up in possibly one of the most liberal cities in America… Los Angeles. I went to public school. I heard and saw alot of stuff that a kid probably should not see. However, I had an amazing spiritually vibrant home and church that I was a part of. I stayed very grounded in my faith.
I had three friends who’s parents pulled them out of the evil LA school district and sheltered them. Today, one is a gay alcoholic and the other is afraid to talk to people (literally).
Now, I am not saying that homeschooling does that to your kids. And, I don’t have any so I have no real experience with this. But, from life I have seen that even the sheltered kids are not immune.
In general, I don’t think it is the best idea to pull your kids out from the world (whatever that means). They need to learn to love those who are different and deal with the real world. And, I have seen home schooled parents do that as well.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:22 am
I too went to some of the most liberal schools in the country (Massachussetts). I think I turned out ok. If I had kids, I wouldn’t send them to the local Christian school because growing up I knew the kids from that school. They either turned out good or really really bad.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:27 am
You know what Nathan, I have seen evidence of the same thing. Some homeschoolers seem to have an air about them. Even when your kids grow up and serve the Lord we must point to God’s grace, certainly not our expertise in parenting.
And when I read on Ingrid’s blog that as she is cleaning she hears Schubert or Brahms or Chopin coming from her son’s room and that is supposed to be an evidence of something spiritual, well, that again exposes that she lives inside her own world.
I’ll never unerstand how those who parade the “doctrines of grace” turn around and parade how they do everything right in…uh…everything. They do church right, singing right, writing right, parenting right, doctine right, eschatology right, evangelism right, and after expounding on all that they do right they sprinkle it with a token mention of God’s grace.
It must be just me but I don’t get it.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Rick,
Perhaps that’s because the “doctrines of grace” are everything but…
October 26th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Rick,
It could mean he is gay… but I am not claiming he is… just that I know a lot of people who listen to classical music as well as show tunes that are gay… sooooo… but I am not claiming he is at all… so I am not starting rumors… for all I know he just likes classical music… and show tunes… well maybe not show tunes…. that might lead to turning gay…
Oh btw there are classical tunes that are inspired by Satan!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Satan_(book)#Classical_Music
So he could be sacrificing chickens in his room!!!!
But, again, he most likely is not a gay Satanist… I am most sure of it… but if he was emergent… I bet he would!*
Be blessed,
iggy
*this was all meant in humor and satire on the level (low humor as it is) of Phil Johnson and Co… As approved by John MacArthur.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Iggy - reserve the luxury of an unexpressed thought sometimes.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Just a thought, but isn’t the public school system as we know it today a relatively new concept (ie: last 100 yrs or so)? Today people claim it’s the most influential socializing force in our society. With the downturn in the home, I don’t really doubt that it is.
The saving grace of God is just as important on a homeschool child as it is to public school child, but the Lord gives very clear commands throughout scripture on the parents’ responsibility. It’s not either/or - might I suggest that parents are co-workers together with the Lord?
October 26th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Because I’m very prideful…I coined the phrase “drive-by commenting”. Just for the record.
Have a great weekend everybody. Taking my high schoolers on retreat.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Well, Paul, if you consider that vitriolic then you may want to start by rebuking the watchdoggies yourself. Unless that’s only vitriolic when its people you disagree with.
And I’m not suggesting that there’s people begging to get into the doors of the church if only the watchdoggies would shut up. What I’m suggesting is that the mean, and angry tone of the watchdoggies is a way of life, and as such they poison everyone who knows them but aren’t Christians against giving Christians a fair shake when it comes to relationships. A great example of this is Ingrid bragging about brow beating a clerk at a grocery store.
October 26th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Chris,
All because Lyons didn’t like the fighten fundy label!
Just so you know, I’m the one who coined the phrase ODM. I actually thought about putting that on a resume. I’ve added a word to the American lexicon.