Perhaps Ingrid just doesn’t know about Dan Kimball’s father passing away on Sunday, but I found this piece to be in incredibly poor taste.  I would think she would have some clue about what’s been happening in Dan Kimball’s life since Mike Corley pointed it out on a blog on which Ingrid is listed as a contributor.   Even politicians show some common courtesy to one another at the death of a family member.

Besides the fact that Ingrid is unable to restrain herself from attacking someone who is going through a trying personal situation, the content of her attack is the standard “guilt-by-association” attack.  Brian McClaren wrote the Foreword to Kimball’s book, The Emerging Church, so that makes Dan Kimball somehow responsible for McClaren speaking at a gay church over four years later.  Once again, simply arguing on the actual content of a book seems too much for the ODM’s.

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This entry was posted on Monday, October 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 am and is filed under Emergent Church, Ingrid, ODM Responses, ODM Writers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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85 Comments(+Add)

1   Jeff    
October 22nd, 2007 at 10:59 am

I am sure this has been used here before but my immediate thought when reading this was Dawgs returning to their own vomit.
While Mike Corley, seems cautious of the EmMovement, he has expressed an openness to dialog and that I give him credit.

The more I learn and open my eyes to this stuff the more I realize that this side of the isle has it right (or at least humility). The dawgs say this and that because of the authority of the infallible, inerrant, God breathed scripture. Yet, what do they have to say about scholars who study textual criticism and prove that scripture has been added too and changed throughout these 2000 years? I like how Brian McClaren puts it as I read A new Kind of Christian with spider web scenario (those who read the book know what I mean). I was once one who took scripture as my foundation, as in a building, once I learned how scripture has been changed my “Christian” building started to lose its foundation. McClaren seems to be putting it back for me. Many think he is a heretic, I am still learning, I don’t know but, I do like a lot of what he says, it is what I need right now……

2   Tim Reed
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:12 am

Anyone else struck by the idolatry the Reformation has been turned into? Her problem with E/Es is how she thinks they treat the Reformation, rather than with what they believe about Christ.

At this point she’s worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

3   Chris P.    
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:20 am

Once again turning this into something that it isn’t.
Where was everybody when both my parents died?

Looks to me like Dan Kimball is the idol, as he is one of the anointed. He doesn’t deserve any better treatment than anyone else.
Do not tell me that the ecm is not a mirror of roman catholicism. It is the new imaginarium/magesterium.
BTW who cares what politicians do?

While you are worrying about the odm sites, you should be concerned that you will also answer for every idle word and believe me this blog is full of them.

4   Tim Reed
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:32 am

Chris P,
The problem is when you say “He doesn’t deserve any better treatment than anyone else” that means you’re free to treat him as crappily as you treat everyone else even on a day when he’s dealing with tragedy.

What that should mean to anyone legitimately trying to follow Christ is that he would normally be treated so well that there’s no way to treat him better when his dad dies.

5   Jeff    
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:37 am

Crappily, I like that word.

I am sure Chris will start throwing out scriptures like “There is none good, no not one” etc to justify not caring for other people during hardship.

I am glad God broke those chains of fundamentalism as I can love people a lot more now……

6   nathan
October 22nd, 2007 at 12:09 pm

1. Ingrid seems to make an ass of herself every time she writes (and I type that unashamedly). SOL has become the same virus to the Christian faith (not the reformed faith, the faith of church fathers, the faith of hymns and old time VBS… the faith of TODAY). for the most part, the ODMs have become a cesspool of a self fulfilling theology and hate.

2. Chris P., you seem like you always have a chip on your shoulder when you come here. I pray that you will fnd healing in whatever area that causes you to be so reactive here.

3. Dan Kimball is a great guy, and I have so much respect for him. Along with that, Mike Corley is another guy that I am coming to enjoy. our discourses have shown that he is now (more than in the past), very open to finding truth. He is not interested in proving his point, but finding what is real.

7   Brendt
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pm

Since it’s pretty clear that the ODMs will not be rising above the (lack of) intelligence level of GBA anytime soon, could they at least put a statute of limitations on the thing? A four-year-old book?!?!

To quote Pagitt: “Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.”

8   merry    
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 pm

SOL has become the same virus to the Christian faith (not the reformed faith, the faith of church fathers, the faith of hymns and old time VBS… the faith of TODAY)

Please, let God be the judge of that. I don’t know what to think, but please, just let God do the judging. Rudeness isn’t going to solve anything.

While you are worrying about the odm sites, you should be concerned that you will also answer for every idle word and believe me this blog is full of them.

Again, rudeness isn’t going to solve anything, although this is what I was sweetly trying to convey a couple days ago and a different post.

9   Brendt
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:05 pm

Chris P: Where was everybody when both my parents died?

Chris, I am genuinely sorry for your loss. I hope that your folks were believers so that you will be united with them again someday.

However, by saying that, you strengthen Phil’s point in reverse. Because the answer is that you weren’t being attacked during your time of loss. “Where was everybody?” Not up in your proverbial grill.

I do hope this was due to ignorance on Ingrid’s part. Even someone as scuzzy as Ted Kennedy or Dick Durbin would back off during a time of grief.

10   Phil Miller
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:13 pm

I think the statute of limitations is around 150 years or so. Ingrid claims the glory of God shines through Paganini’s music here. I wonder if she is aware of the fact that Paganini lived a much more worldly life than most “Emergents”. Mozart wasn’t exactly a paragon of virtue either.

I actually don’t disagree with Ingrid’s assertion that the glory of God does shine through that music. It just seems her standard is rather, shall we say, flexible.

11   me    
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:31 pm

I’m sorry for Dan Kimbell’s loss but this nation of leaders needs to wake up. CHristianity is not about a HAIRSTYLE. The door to our spiritual demise has flung wide open. This country is anything but Christian. When a Mayor in Bloomington, INDIANA (the midwest which is loathed and called “”Jesus Land” ) takes down the TEN COMMANDMENTS and puts up a statue of BUDDAH….we’ve got trouble in River CIty. WHen in Michagan fliers are put on windshields by Muslims that say Jews and Christians, you must convert to allah or die…we’ve got some spiritual mess up ahead. WHen emergents throw the foundational doctrines out the window we’ve got some problems. The church that was burned to the ground in Malibu was of the LIBERAL THEOLOGY that all emergents love. Burned to a crisp. I dont’ think gay marriage and gays in the pulpits are the theology of the LORD!! If you have not noticed ATLANTA is in a drought……(kinda biblical now) yet they will put up their stonehenge worship rocks in that region and call on the sun and moon. WE’VE GOT SOME BIG SPIRITUAL CONFUSION IN AMERICA…..THE LIVING GOD IS SHAKING THIS NATION FOR HIS PATIENCE HAS NEARLY COME TO AND END./…….THE WORLD IS FACING THE DAY OF THE LORD AND THEY ARE CLUELESS TO WHAT IT IS….DO A BIBLE STUDY ON THAT!!!! WHen Hal “Late Great Planet Earth” Lindsey sends a plea to this President (Who I do not believe is truly born again) and COndi Rice BEGGING them not to divide up Jerusalem and the masses in American CHristianity are clueless about the JUDGMENT to come when that dividing happens….we have problems. Rabid anti-semite Jimmy Carter was worshipped at Willow Creek!!! ICHABOD….You’re BLIND…..

ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM IS SET TO BE THE CUP OF TREMBLING…….and I would not count on the rapture theory to get you out. You may have to go thru the ENTIRE TRIBULATION PERIOD….but if the Book of Revelation means nothing to you while you slop and roll in greasy grace..then by all means….get a new hairstyle…The WORD OF FAITH movement is being slammed with it’s own scandal as Oral Roberts University tries to cover it’s nakedness now exposed. And the Paulk man from Georgia has some sorta incest going on!! Oh it STINKS in American Christianity….

When someone raises their hand and says….(in a meek voice” “I think America should repent” we’re blasted as bible thumping lunatics……




We are in the last breath of the last days…….anti-christ is set to rise as clowns down in florida are already getting their 666 tattoos (!!!) on their bodies (!!!) as they worship some dude who says he is the messiah………..

(bullhorn cranked LOUD) ……….

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

research all these news tidbits I’ve mentioned…they are real stories happening in this land. Which proves the INSANITY THAT COMES FROM REJECTING THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD!!

12   Mike Corley
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Just for the record, Ingrid is not a contributor to my blog. I simply have her site listed on my blogroll.

13   Mike Corley
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:42 pm

My bad, I read the piece again and you got it right. Just delete me if you want.

14   me    
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:47 pm

has my post been censored?

15   Joe Martino
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:14 pm

Anybody notice how Ingrid said she was going to be more encouraging when Slice 3.0 came back on and it seems to me that all she does is attack. I guess she missed her own memo.

16   Phil Miller
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:30 pm

It might be time to consider switching to decaf. Wow.

17   Joe Martino
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:33 pm

Tamela, TJ, Me…why all the deception? Why not just put your real name up there? Everytime. It would make it so much easier for me to create a greatest comments by TJ post.

18   Nathan    
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:45 pm

to me (not me as in the literal “me”, but me the commenter),

what does ANY of that have to do with being kind to a Brother in Christ?

19   Nathanael
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:02 pm

I am confused…the only thing in your ranting and raving that had anything to do with our grieving brother was a reference to his hairstyle.
are you serious?
get off your soap-box and weep with those who are weeping.

20   chris
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:32 pm

Is it just ME?

Wow classic!

21   T.J.    
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:44 pm

No It’s tamela/T.J….

I put “me” not to cloud the meat of the post with my name…..see my name is not what is important…it is the message…and everything I cited in the post is happening in America. So please do not get hung up on who wrote what…..(onlu lovers of self do that)

but if the message is false…please prove it…..

22   Chris L
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:48 pm

if the message is false…please prove it…

If your post is relevant to the topic of discussion, please prove it…

If you believe anything written by Lindsay, I can provide buckets of proof to the contrary…

23   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Chris P.

Looks to me like Dan Kimball is the idol, as he is one of the anointed. He doesn’t deserve any better treatment than anyone else.

No, Dan is a fellow human being that Jesus died for to save and is in mourning over the loss of his father…

It seems your lack of compassion see no bounds!

I wonder if we read the same bible? My God is the same in Exodus Who states:

“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,”

Yes, I know that there is more to the quote… yet you seem to not understand nor care to learn this half…

This is the same type of crap that you guys pulled when Kyle Lake died… and it is sick and depraved and evil.


24   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:10 pm

Chris P,

Also I was not aware your parents both died so recently… I am sorry for your loss… Is there anything you need like some money for funeral expenses or prayer?

I’ll be prayer for you as it seems the loss still really pains you.

Be Blessed,

25   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:24 pm

TJ,me, or whoever….

WHen emergents throw the foundational doctrines out the window we’ve got some problems.

This is not true… they affirm the “foundational doctrines”… so in your rant is a lie.

Be Blessed,

26   dave
October 22nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm

This is not true… they affirm the “foundational doctrines”… so in your rant is a lie.

iggy… don’t confuse her with facts. that kind of “truthiness” just gets in the way…

27   Rick Frueh    
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:11 pm

me – when a comment becomes so disorganized in its vitriol that dissecting it is a college course, you then have obscured any point within the forest of your hyperbole and self serving literary screeching. Calm down, make a cogent point, and enter the dialogue with humble boldness.

Are you male or female?

As much as I strongly disagree with Ingrid and her unscriptural position, I find it difficult to believe she was aware of Kimball’s loss as she wrote her post. Really, I would be shocked.

28   T.J.    
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:37 pm

what does it matter if I am male or female. Rick……everything I stated is from the past few days headlines….and here’s another connect the dots for ya…..CALIFORNIA IS BURNING because the R.I.N.O. (Republican in name only…not one shred of a conservative bone in his body)…ARN-NOLD just passed a law BANNING the terminology of mom and dad…and boys and girls in school can pop into whatever bathroom they want to…………………that will be wonderful when a girl is on her period!!! GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Psychos are in power…….

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS RATIONAL AND COMMON SENSE…….ARNOLD IS NUTS………… as he has taken a sledghammer to the family… well Yahweh has taken a bolt of fire to his state……remember…..Sodom and Gomorrah became toast for a REASON…….it would not suprise me if a massive earthquake…the “big one” followed on the heels of Cali Burning…..
Arnold attempts to destroy the family…I tell you this…they will have to arrest me or cut my head off before my kids are NOT ALLOWED to call me MOM and my husband DAD.

Too bad some poor kids have pervert parents….2 lesbians or 2 homo men…..pray for the children…they’ve already got some baggage to deal with now. But THEY are not changing MY PARENTAL NAME……

BTW …..this is a culture/spiritual/demonic war…..

as Rome destroyed itself…so AMerica is as well.
WAKE UP. !!!! (bullhorn cranked to 1O, again)

I had some iced tea an hour ago… no real caffeine high……..this is PURE RAW JOHN THE BAPTIST PASSION

I’m gonna shout it from the rooftops…..REPENT AMERICA……


29   T.J.    
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:40 pm

as for Dan Kimbell….I’m sorry for his loss. But the emergent movement is dangerous and people need to be alerted to it.

30   Rick Frueh    
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:42 pm

Ah, you are a woman. I guess the meek spirit verse is dispensational.

Bullhorn girl.

31   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:13 pm


You sound unstable, and that is not meant as a put down.


Yeah, but Grey Davis was about as honest as a mafia paid… oh wait, he was mafia paid!

Montana fires are pretty bad also, yet fires are natures way of cleaning out the debris… so being that we are nto following the natural course I see that the forests are burning worse every year and will encroached on more populated areas… so yes the fire is bad, but it is not the end of the world.

I find it funny though that if Cali burns then the end times are here! Yet thousand starve everyday or are murdered for their faith and not much is stated.

America was always guilty of sin… so why is is so much worse now?

ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short the glory of God…

God does nto want to save America… He wants people to come into His Kingdom…

Again, there is so much hysteria in your rant… that to see God is still and always in control seems totally missed,

Be blessed,

32   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:14 pm


But the emergent movement is dangerous and people need to be alerted to it.

Reformation idolatry is more dangerous and insidious… it looks like the true, but hisses hate and dispenses lies.


33   dave
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:29 pm


Wait… so the wild fires are Arnold’s fault?

Biblical support, please.

And you really saying that nothing bad happens to good conservative patriotic Christians like yourself?

34   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:53 pm


The real danger is the cult of religious Americanized Christianity… it is a false cult of a perverted religion.

To state that God loves America (the best which is the insinuation) then the rest of the world is second place…

Funny how God so loved the world… and yet many here in America seem to think it is just Americans who save the world…


35   dave
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:58 pm

whatever iggy… why do you hate america? :)

and maybe they don’t think that Americans save the world. i think that they think that Americans ARE the world…

36   tim    
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:13 pm


37   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:26 pm


Hate is a strong word…

The point is not about “me” it is about how many have lost sight of the gospel and turned it into the “American gospel”… We are a prosperous nation, not because we are so righteous… as “none are righteous”.

I just think that America, as great as it is, is nothing compared to God’s Kingdom… the thought is like when Paul states, “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.”

In fact American knows little about actual sufferings. There are some, but the bulk have no idea even what it is to be hungry, cold, naked and so on, let alone almost beaten to death for our faith.

Nations will come and go, and America is just a man made nation…

Can you show me where in the scripture that it states any nation has some “special” favor from God… besides Israel? The only special favor is that God is long suffering and wants none to perish…

be blessed,

38   M.G.    
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:27 pm

Someone once asked G.K. Chesterton what was wrong with the world. His reply: I am.

Where is that mentality, T.J.? Where is the humility? The arrogant assumption that every wild-eyed theory T.J. spouts off must be true quite literally hurts my faith.

Julie’s comments, though, make me laugh. Thanks Julie!

39   iggy
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 pm




40   Rick Frueh    
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:52 am

Ingrid says in that post:

“Regarding the LCMS, I am personally calling on Dr. Jerry Kieschnik to withdraw his synod’s invitation to Dan Kimball or admit to having a man keynote an LCMS symposium who is yoked to heretical teachers. Don’t talk about Reformation Day this October 31 unless you are prepared to fight for truth in your own time and denomination.”

Who is Ingrid to rebuke a pastor regardless of the right or wrong of the issue? She also calls for Kimball to get out of his group. I call for Ingrid to get out of a church that teaches the heresy that baptism saves.

See, standing on the inconspicuous and invisible platform of the internet anyone can be whoever they like, all you have to do is hide behind the view that “this isn’t a church”. If you are a believer you ARE the church. I am openly calling John MacArthur to stop teaching the doctrine of limited atonement!

Wow, I feel so powerful!! Oh and by the way, my daughter calls for MacArthur to stop it too! See, anyone can play this game! Remember, I can do and say anything I want – this isn’t a church.

41   iggy
October 23rd, 2007 at 6:09 am

I am going to call you to stop it….

My funny bone can take it any more! LOL!


42   dave
October 23rd, 2007 at 6:59 am

iggy… i am being sarcastic… i agree with you.

43   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:03 am

WTG Rick, don’t you feel powerful with this wonder invention of the internet. Well said……

44   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:12 am

RE: TJ’s comments, I was talking to my wife yesterday about who would take the platform and say that California is burning because of the recent laws that were passed. Does anyone know if Pat Robertson or anyone else has made this claim on the airwaves? It is funny how the church makes these kind of bold statements when tragedy strikes. However, if you really want to get biblical shouldn’t God be placing judgement on Oral Roberts U for there many alledged scandles? Judgement starts in the house of God, we can’t judge sinners for being sinners.

45   nc    
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:18 am

wow…this whole thread is was hijacked almost from the start…

Chris P, deepest condolences on the loss of your parents.

Mike Corley, thanks for being humble about the Ingrid post. I hope it doesn’t jeopardize your relationships with her crowd.

46   T.J.    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 am

Jeff, since you wer talking about the CA laws that were passed and now the CA inferno, you must have at least PONDERED a connection. Because AMerica has no “fear of the Lord’ most think chaos in the weather is not an issue. It was a HUGE issue in Egypt as plagues, fires , hail, etc. all rained down. Look at AMerica since 9-11 (which was THE wake-up call for this country)…..things have gotten worse in regards to the family, the church, our weather, …we are a war monger nation with iran in our sights. No one pays any attention to Jerusalem/the middle east….but it is THE KEY to where we are headed. many on this board may not even think Jesus is actually returning to earth. He is the LAMB and the LION…..He’s already done the LAMB portion….up ahead…the LION of the Tribe of judah.

When israel was split into the northern kingdom (10 tribes) and JUDAH…..the 10 tribes rebelled….Judah means PRAISE…..sold out to Him…..10,000%.

Lion of the tribe of JUDAH is coming back…….
and we see even now..those who are in the rebellious kingdom..and those who are in JUDAH…….they are PRAISING HIM…not mocking and dismantling HIS WORD and having a “conversation or dialog about it”…..THEY LOVE HIM….THEY WORSHIP HIM….THEY WILL DIE FOR HIM……


And that is why America is in the mess she is in…..she is in REBELLION towards HIM.

47   T.J.    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:04 am

And jeff, God is judging ORU……it just may come crashing down….the Word of Faith movement is blowing apart…..Paula White’s new book is “You’re All That”……………..

yeah…that’s what Jesus taught………..!!!!!! Get your bling on and pamper yourself at the Holy ghost spa…Hey Paula…..WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE……I’ve had to…….

Wake me when the WOF has completely imlpoded…that’s where thery’re headed!


48   Phil Miller
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:16 am

Why is God still judging people for sins that Jesus already died for? Was His wrath not satisfied in Jesus’ death?

Also, who speaks for America? How does America repent? What percentage of people need to repent for God to withhold judgment?

49   Rick Frueh    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:26 am

God deals with individual people in the New Testament, not countries. The church needs to repent, but America was never a Christian so how can she repent?

This is what happens when you bring Old Testament terminology into the New Testament. Individuals repent, either individually or collectively. To assign divine motive to the weather usually includes a measure of pride. I wonder why Denmark has no fires? How about Iran?

God says false deceivers will increase, not implode. What church do you go to T.J.?

50   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:37 am

I used to be in your shoes, I used to subscribe all that God’s judgment stuff. I have really taken a 180 on it and backed off any of those claimes.

You say: “Look at America since 9-11 (which was THE wake-up call for this country)…..things have gotten worse in regards to the family, the church, our weather, …we are a war monger nation with Iran in our sights.”
First, it is your opinion that 9/11 was some sort of Godly wake up call. The fact is our foreign policy is very aggressive and is interested in plundering other nations for their resources; Iran is next because them, and Venezuela have the next top Oil reserves. I am sure that after we attack Iran, the news will start that the Leader for Venezuela is some sort of imminent threat against us. Things have gotten worse with our Nation and it is because we have voted in Neo-Conservatives that run on values voters platforms and are nothing but, they get our vote and do nothing to help our causes. We have a policy that doesn’t look 10 – 20 years down the road. The NeoCons have done everything they can to make the rich, Richer and the middle class nonexistent. Our weather is bad because we have done nothing as a nation to reduce our effects to our earths environment, again that 10 to 20 years is not an issue. When you believe the rapture is immanent you don’t care to plan for the future. The fact is, this story of has been repeated over and over again with dire consequences to those nations. Read American Theocracy if you would like the proof, it is written by a secularist, but the information is an eye opener.

Here is some food for thought, Europe is WAY more secular than we are, yet they are thriving greatly. If your thoughts had any weight then God should be judging them mightily for their sinful nature.

The fact is we live in a real world and have real problems, our leaders have done nothing to help our situation as a nation and that is why will are having our issues not some judgment from God.

51   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 am

Prediction: Next year when the Democrats control this country and our economy crashes, it will be the TJ’s screaming “See God’s judgement for voting prochoice, pro Gay candidates in office” Never mind all the warning signs that we have now that our economy is unsustainable……

BTW, I am not a Dem, I don’t care for their social stances, I just can’t stand what the NeoCon have done to our Nation…..

52   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:44 am

I just realize how far this has gone off track, Sorry, I couldn’t help but comment to TJ’s posts

53   T.J.    
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 am

when Hillary is our President it will be because luke warm people in the church voted for the “lesser of two evils”…ONCE AGAIN…instead of voting for RIGHTEOUSNESS and then seeing what God will do. Go Huckabee!!

Our economy is going to crash becasue people in America (the church included) are lovers of mammon instead of lovers of God….see ORU implosion currebtly underway.

My “ranting” is nothing short of Patrcik Henry crying out (without a microphone or the internet, I might add)

I’ve just updated HIS RANT…..GIVE ME RIGHTEOUSNESS OR GIVE ME DEATH…..this nation will repent or she will burn in destruction and judgment. I know it sounds “astonishing” to dulled ears…..passion is what threw off the restraints of England…and this same passion is what will THROW BACK ON THE “RESTRAINT of GODLINESS” IN THIS LAND….

54   T.J.    
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:12 am

Rick our family attends 2 different churches..back and forth…a baptist church (where many of the people are into the things of the world, so we don’t quite fit in) but at least the pastor preches TRUTH…and the other is a charasmatic church….small…not really word of faith but they believe in God’s blessings..they just do not get all wrapped up in the MATERLISM so many WOF churches do….they trust God and the great part is we WORSHIP the LORD in spirit and in truth…..praise goes on sometimes for 5o minutes or more…we have His PResense in our midst…sometimes I sing in the spirit and pray in tongues…it flows in the Holy ghost…and the preaching is biblical, solid truth..and sometimes prophetic. I also attend prayer meetings that last for hours…

the more we pray….the more we commune with Jesus, the more we see how far America has fallen….we are truly like rebellious Israel.

55   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 am

Righteousness and nations don’t go together anymore than asking what the prime number of flannel is.

56   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:43 am

I love it when folks discribe their preaching as the TRUTH. That usually indicates hardcore fundamentalism, I used to be of that kind until God opened my eyes to a much bigger world……

57   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 am

First of all, TJ, I agree with your statements–in general. But, sister, you do not help the “cause”. I believe Emergent Theology is an oxymoron because I honestly see more of man’s needs, man’s desires, and man’s thinking himself wise yet becoming a fool than I see Scriptural Teaching and Practice. That I will contend with passion. (Say what you like boys) Your views on charismatic practices I do not hold to and I would address those another time as they are rather separate from this.
I would offer some advice from a brother. I have read the comments back and forth, and something concerns me. I see the same crass–sometimes even vulgar–and rude arguments from contributors like Jeff and others. That doesn’t surprise me. But truth of point aside, even relevance of subject matter to the discussion at hand aside, your arguments do not appear any different–except I do not recall the use of crass language in your comments. Which is good, but not enough for sound admonishment. Speak with passion! Yes, but coherent passion. Essentially, you’re “giving them what they want” by such arguments, and the truth of some of it is lost in the capital letters.

58   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pm


To those like Jeff,
I am not interested in a “bigger world” but rather the bigger God
Who created it. It seems to me, based on what i see written herein at face value, that you are more concerned with being non-”fundamental” than being adhered to the Word. The problem is this: using the “what is truth?” argument that seems to play out into much of your comments, define “fundamentalism”. Is it fudd-dutties afraid of change? Or is it the parts of Scripture that rebuke your ideas? Is it legalistic fools who know only Law and not also Grace? Or is it believers who obey the Law BECAUSE of Grace? These could all, depending our own defenitions, be the examples of Fundamentalism. It comes down to how we view Truth. Are we skeptics of it, or subjects?

59   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:08 pm

And what is the obscure iggy’s name? If that is your name, I apologize, but I simply found it hard to imagine. No offense.

60   Chris L
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:09 pm


Perhaps it is that the praxis (or mitzvot) God desires, particularly in regards to “love your neighbor”, extends beyond making sure that your neighbor has the ‘correct’ orthodoxy…

61   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 pm

Chris L,

True. Absolutely true. But true love of a neighbor must make sure he has the correct orthodoxy. Unfortunately, some do not do this in a loving way. I will grant you that. But did you ever consider that you may be no different? Love will sometimes be harsh, don’t forget that, but it will never be contrary to any part of Scripture.
It is not love to let another man continue in an idea that is contradictory to the Word of God. Is it. I am reminded of Priscilla & Aquilla. However, they were correcting–in love–a brother who did not have a problem accepting the Scriptures but rather, he did understand it entirely. “How dare they” we would say according to arguments I see here. Be careful men, we speak of things so great and profound, we have a serious responsibility to be accurate–which the Scripture is so all we need do is follow it.
In love,

62   Nathanael
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm

“Love will sometimes be harsh,” you say. And I agree.
A parent must sometimes spank their child. But a good parent has a loving relationship with their child that confirms that the discipline is for the child’s good. (My dad used to make us thank him for a paddling.)

However, if a stranger saw your child misbehaving in public and said, “Love will sometimes be harsh,” as he laid your child across his knee and spanked him, you would react harshly. And rightly so.

Even so, I cannot expect my neighbor to immediately adhere to my interpretation of correct orthodoxy if I do not take the time to show my corrective measures are birthed out of love, not out of needing to be right. I must prove my love to my neighbor before I come at him with both barrels blazing.

Truth is truth. But I can nullify the truth by being a jack-ass.


63   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm


“I see the same crass–sometimes even vulgar–and rude arguments from contributors like Jeff and others.”

Please show mw how my comments we Vulger and Rude? You lost me on that one……..Direct and to the point maybe, I think vulger and rude is a little too much.

64   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:27 pm

Jeff, I’m sorry. I looked back and it appears I may have singled you out unfairly–especially on the vulgar part. It would have been more accurate to point out Tim Reed’s “crappily”. You did condone that one. However, upon reflection, I ma by no means above reproach in my own life. Refraining from that language here is meaningless if I use occasionally elsewhere. So, a drunk may be able to see another drunk, but he would be more coherent once he himself is sober. The “beam and speck scenario” does go both ways, you and I both must not forget that.


65   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:31 pm


Thanks for the clarity, I was confused, I may be direct and forthright in my opinions but I try not to be rude and vulger. That would be very crappily of me if I did…. HAHA Sorry, I had to do it.

66   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:40 pm


Indeed, truth is truth. But nothing nullifies it. In light of Truth, a hypocrite nullifies himself–not the Truth he may spout in disobedience. The Truth may be discredited by him, yes, but the discreditation will not last under the perfect lens of Truth. This is where discernment comes into play. Discernment is wisdom; wisdom comes from the Word of the Lord; Wisdom is the sight of Truth; Wisdom ONLY comes from the Word of the Lord.
The word is to be the ONLY Benchmark of Wisdom and therefore Truth as well.
And the real issue here is Emergent Philosophy. Under the lens of Scripture, I simply do find support for it. So, because i love you, I will tell when I see Scripturally in-coincident theology. I would hate you if I did not.

67   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 pm

“I simply do NOT find”


68   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 pm

If you’re offended by “crappily” chances are you’re offended by scripture too.

I also find it interesting that you’re offended by crappily but not by the actions described by that word.

69   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Tim Reed,

I would not bring into the temple something that even dogs will wipe from themselves.
Be careful what you assume Philosopher. I never said what you found “interesting”. I simply did not address it at the time due to it’s polluted content. I must first wipe away the infection, before the wound can be treated.
Being “offended” by “crappily”, which I will grant is mild comparatively, has nothing to do with timid sensibilities; “whatever things are lovely, whatever things are just…”


70   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:00 pm

I’d avoid reading Paul then. Good thing interpreters have “wiped away the infection” before it was allowed in the canon.

71   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:01 pm

“If I throw a rock into a pack of dogs and one yelps; it is probably the one that got hit.”

72   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Tim Reed,


73   Joe Martino
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm

Do you read Greek? I’m not being smart here, I am asking an honest question, because if you don’t my next question will not matter.

74   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm

Hmm, I can’t seem to find that verse in scripture anywhere. Must be you weren’t able to hold your nose and read it at the same time.

75   Matt
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:03 pm

And Paul used the word skubala in Phillipians. That is way more offensive then crappily.

And dogs are known to eat their own skubala.

76   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:14 pm

I am curious about your question regarding reading Greek?????

77   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:21 pm

SJ said:

“If I throw a rock into a pack of dogs and one yelps; it is probably the one that got hit.”

This strikes me as perhaps the stupidest bit of “wisdom” I’ve ever read. Its basically saying that if you attack someone and they respond, then that’s the person you attacked. Wow. That’s just mind blowing there.

Taking a deeper look into it for a second it points out the obvious wrong. Whoever’s saying it is the one throwing rocks. What are you doing throwing rocks? Its justification by obviousness for attacking someone.

78   S.J. Walker    
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pm

That kinda sounded like a yelp to me.

I must go back to work now,

I’ll research the “skubala” issue.

Talk to everyone later

79   Tim Reed
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:33 pm

That kinda sounded like a yelp to me.

That kind of sounded like subscribing yet again to the stupidest bit of wisdom in the history of the universe.

80   Joe Martino
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Well Jeff, since you asked, and SJ ignored me. I’ll answer. If you read Greek the New Testament is full of words that our neo-fundamentalist would find offensive. Philipians 3 talks about all of our works being like some pretty nasty stuff that if I said from the Pulpit (even though I don’t preach from one) I’d be fired in most of our fighten fundy churches.

81   Jeff    
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:52 pm


That is what I thought; this is where I have an issue with fundamentalism. Most people who subscribe to it have no idea how we got the scripture that we have today. A course in Textual Criticism doeth a man good…….

82   iggy
October 23rd, 2007 at 4:20 pm

SJ Walker,

First off to every one, sorry to high-jack the thread and make it about me…

And what is the obscure iggy’s name? If that is your name, I apologize, but I simply found it hard to imagine. No offense.

I am a dinosaur of the Internet… and it is a nickname/DJ name for my on line radio station…

It evolved like this:

1. I started messing around with Internet radio about 1998 and needed a DJ name, I chose iggy as I had a iguana and was referred to as “iguana man” by some of my biker buddies. (There was also “snake man” who had a huge boa)

2. I used to witness in chat rooms. iggy was a “chat” name… it also means “to ignore” in that world… that was productive in the beginning but as “chatting” evolved… it was more a waste of time.

3. I started my blog at about the time everyone used weird names… Tallskinnykiwi (Andrew Jones) PunkMonkey (John O’Keefe) and so on… again, this was around 2004 and things have changed… but a few of us have kept the name we are best known by…

4. I also use iggy as it is pretty harmless sounding. I sounds a bit friendly. = )

Also there are a lot of iggys out there… and many Ignatius’ are called iggy for short.

Since most know me by iggy on the Internet I use it… feel free to address me by my given name of Carlos… which has it’s own story behind! LOL!… as have absolutely no Hispanic blood in me. Just to warn you though I may not catch it so don’t get offended if I don’t answer.

Now, I state all that but if you are still curious, that little link above that states “iggy” would lead you to my blog and profile and you will know much more about me than I do about you as you are seemingly hiding behind no link at all…

So are you related to Texas Walker? LOL! Why are you hiding by not having a link to let us know who you are? That seems a bit more like someone “obscuring” themselves than using a name that has been used since 1998 and is fairly publicly known.. I have a Online Christian radio station called, iggyROCKS! that is in the top 100 of it’s genre for the last 3 years… I have been blogging since 2004 with almost 30,000 page views (which is not much compared to this site)

Be Blessed,

83   T.J.    
October 23rd, 2007 at 4:59 pm

thanks for the critique SJ…..what sounds inchorent is my attempt at connecting all the dots at rapid fire….because I read so much about what is going on…in America, in the world and in prophetic timelines, and because I pray a lot….I think the Lord gives me spiritual wisdom and discernment. This is not said with a cocky attitude but more of with a heart wrenching plea….sorta like….

There is train headed straight for us….we’re on the tracks…tied down….I see the light…I hear the whistle….it’s not right on top of us yet but I am warning as many as I can…..LOOK OUT….THE TRAIN IS COMING……

people look bewildered and say “what train”?…I dont’ see or hear a train…..

so it’s like one conversation with some insight (from God, I believe) and the other part of the conversation just’re nuts…you need help…calm down….LOL

84   Brendt
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:05 pm

Meta goes off rails, film at 11. ;-)

85   Rick Frueh    
October 24th, 2007 at 7:57 am

T.J. – Your observation about God’s judgment is correct except the target is not America, the Scriptures teach it is the entire world (II Thess. 1). Try not to think as an American, think as a follower of Jesus Christ whose citizenship is not of this world.

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  1. Theology for the Masses » Blog Archive » Monday Afternoon Links    Oct 22 2007 / 3pm:

    [...] The human embodiment of Christian unity, Ingrid, freaks out because Kimball, who does not hate McLaren, is speaking in St. Louis at the Missouri Lutheran Church Snod. A small apocalypse ensues. I like that she envokes the Book of Concord in her argument for scripture alone. That and the guilt by association. (Bonus Link: See CRN.Info’s take on Ingrid’s post) [...]