I’m listening to Mark Driscoll’s sermon from 10/9/07 entitled The Rebel’s Guide to Joy. In it he directly takes on Osteen’s health and wealth gospel, even going so far as to show an Osteen video. Afterwards he completely dismantles Osteen’s theology.
Let me repeat that. He completely dismantles Osteen’s theology. It was a contest in the sense that the 1986 Super Bowl was a contest.
And I loved every single second of it.
"Now wait a second Tim", you might be thinking, "you’re a neo-Roman hollow man of the emergent movement, doesn’t that mean you don’t like things like football and theological takedowns?" Well, I don’t like to brag [Ed's note: yes he does. ] but I just went 3-1 in my fantasy football leagues this week, and my average margin of victory was over 20 points [Ed's note: ask him about last week]. But re-read for a second what I wrote.
Driscoll dismantled Osteen’s theology.
He didn’t call Osteen any stupid, alliterative names, take comments out of context (or just straight up make stuff up) or criticize him for not having the same style as Driscoll does. Instead Driscoll attacked the teachings of Osteen, and not only that but actually used scripture to put out a proper theological understanding of the gospel.
In other words, this was a correction via scripture that avoided personal attacks. You might refer to it as the Anti-Watchdoggie Argument.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
23 Comments(+Add)
Tim,
That is the BIG or rather the HUGE difference between the childish ODM’s and true discernment. When I read a book or listen to a teaching by Walter Martin, I do nto get the impression he is tearing down the person… I get the impression that he LOVES the people he is writing about even when it is against them… he wrote about their theology… Now, Mark just bothers me, I have not been able to sit through a single teaching by him… not that I would totally disagree with him, I just personally do not enjoy his teaching… and I can’t put a finger on it other than maybe it is from the Calvinist perspective as in the line of Spurgeon… (though I do not have an issue with Bob Hyatt who also is a Calvinist…)
Now, Mark did a great job with this… I watched as much as I could and totally agree with you and him. Olsteen might have some good “advise” but I do not hear the gospel.
Ken Silva can do this, I know he can. I know he can drop the personal attacks and name calling and attack the others theology and not their person. I wonder though if may he is not grounded in his own theology enough to be able to do this. Sometimes he is Calvinist, and other times he has a broader view. It just seems to morph into whatever he needs at the moment to attack the other person.
I appreciate that Mark stated that he had not issue with Olsteen and even stated that his “joyful” disposition my be that he has the gift of encouragement, and mostly that he never stooped to state Olsteen was NOT a brother in Christ.
As I state I always hope for more out of Ken Silva… and even Ingrid…
Be Blessed,
iggy
Wait, isn’t Driscoll one of those apostate grunge, crazy whacked out, emergent types?
Oh, No he preaches the gospel in Jeans. Watchdoggies have lost all credibilty with me months ago when I saw that they attacked EVERYTHING outside their tiny narrow lens of reality. Plus, I would hear how crazy Silva sounded on the Mike Corley show and thought it would be wise to look into him a little further.
I think Driscoll says a lot of good things, but he also says a lot of stupid things that make it hard for me to respect him. I think it’s his overly macho thing that grates on me more than his Calvinism.
I’ve heard him say and I’ve read in multiple places him say, “I can’t worship a Jesus who I could beat up” as a response to the supposed “wussification” of Jesus by people like Bell and McClaren. The problem with that in my eyes, is that when Jesus was on earth, He did let himself get “beat up” by the Romans. It wasn’t like His weakness and humility were a disguise of His true character – Christ was the perfect image of God according to Colossians. So Driscoll is doing the same thing he accuses others of doing – he’s presenting Christ in an way that’s easier for him to swallow.
Phil,
Actually, the macho thing is what I like about him! LOL! Yet, he does go overboard. I do not think of Bell or McLaren as having a “wussified” Jesus… in fact I see a stronger Jesus than I do in the watchdoggies who think that man can thwart the plan of God somehow… and yet God is soverign… (I just do not see any consistency with their doctrine… oh it is reformed/Calvinistic/non Calvinistic and on and on)
I guess in a world like Ken where there is only a reformed view, and that one is either/or and he is and is not… then I guess Ken’s theology is that he is a “semi Pelagian/non-Calvinist /Calvinist” whatever that is…
Again, I see a lack of cohesion in his doctrine and see more cohesion in Brain McLarens! LOL!
Be Blessed,
iggy
I am heading out to Yellowstone National Park today to pick up newsracks. I will be back tomorrow to tear into Ken Silva’s theology more then.
I just started this message, and I can’t stop laughing from this quote: “Everything that happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas…unless it’s itchy.”
Sorry gentlemen, but don’t you see a little hypocrisy /inconsistency in this post. You guys spend no end of time personally attacking individuals yourselves (though fully justified I’m sure). No, I think mockery would be a more suitable term. Your theology seems to be, “One wrong deserves another.”
BTW, I don’t support any ODMs (though I do read them hear and there). I simply fail to see how you’re any different in your approach. I know that every way of man is right in his own eyes, but perhaps this is something to consider, no?
Paul,
You would do well to notice that no one here has called Driscoll an “apostate”, “heretic”, “snake”, or any of the other labels the ODM’s like to stick on those they disagree with. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a group of people discussing theology in a civil manner.
Even for as much as we talk about CRN and Ken Silva, I don’t think there has been anything that can compare to the vitriol spouted by the ODM’s.
I guess we should just sit back while Christian brothers and sisters are attacked unfairly. If the ODM’s are truly concerned about truth, they shouldn’t be upset when we bring a little back to the conversation.
Again Phil, you’re comparing levels of vitriol in your own words. A lot of times, having read both sides (this site and some of the ODMs) I see very little difference when it comes to personal attacks. That’s just an observation.
Should we celebrate that this site only reflects 50% of the vitriol of other sites? The point is that the distaste people have for certain individuals comes through just as strongly as the person they are commenting on a lot of the time.
And though I do sometimes see that one or two of the ODMs go beyond decency at times, the vast majority of the articles are pretty accurate in their description of the downward trend of the church, in its attempts to market Jesus and make its religion as appealing to the world as possible.
Paul,
I’d like an example of such a personal attack from one of the contributors here. The vast majority of articles on this site are written in response to something posted at CRN or SOL. I guess some of the sarcasm could be seen as vitriol to some, but even then, I don’t know.
I have also seen people who are willing to apologize here, not just “stand our ground”. I don’t any of us claims to be perfect (except maybe Rick
), and I’m sure it’s easy to be “in the flesh”. I just don’t see the kind of hatred shown by the ODM sites.
Oh please. On the front of Apprising you have this head line: “THE CULT OF LIBERAL THEOLOGY: FOREMOST ROTTEN ROOT OF THE EMERGING CHURCH”. That took about 4 seconds of research. Where do you see anything close to that on CRN.info?
Also, your claims of being unbiased don’t match up with what you say:
Are you kidding me? The watchdoggies have been caught numerous times misrepresenting and outright lying about people and situations they disagree with. And that’s just their truth claims, that doesn’t include evaluations of their attitude and tone.
RE: The god squad (i.e. ODM’s)
NOBODY gets to level the charge of “harping, tantrums, etc.†at anyone on this site. (contributors, creators, or even occasional commenters like me.)
Why?
Because arrogant harping, carping, shrieking and exigent tantrums are the currency of the god squad–even if some are quite eloquent and lucid.
What happens here at CRN.info?
Naming divisive, unloving personalized attacks. That is not the same thing, no matter how much anyone wants it to be.
But I will give the God-squad and their defenders credit…
It’s ingenius to establish whole “ministries†to perpetuate their own sinful attitudes that could be best remedied by turning their penetrating insight on themselves. It’s even more cunning to further deflect by accusing their detractors of the very things they do.
It goes like this…
1. ODM’s take issue with someone. (Sometimes legit. in their concerns. Sometimes not.)
2. ODM’s then throw a tantrum and kick someone in the shins.
(By mischaracterizing, sensationalizing, name calling, etc.)
3. CRN.info and others say, “Hey! That’s not an acceptable way to handle your concerns. Some people think you’re a jerk for kicking (fill in the blank) in the shins. How can we actually talk about the real issues now that we have to wade through the mess you’ve made?”
4. ODM’s (and their defenders) throw another tantrum and label clear eyed, calm naming of what they actually do as being “hateful”.
Brilliant.
It reminds me of a church board member I had the misfortune of knowing.
He was controlling and had a critical spirit.
Because I set up structures that insulated my ministry areas from being destabilized and undermined by his carping and control, he labelled me as being controlling. Ironic.
It was a brilliant move. There was no way to disentangle without it being a bit ugly. It was a social-emotional “scorched earth” approach to conflict. No one could escape unscathed.
But…it means the fault lay with him. He stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and he was unqualified to judge. When he didn’t get his way he punished everyone within reach.
I tell you the truth in the Lord, children, such manner of ministry is given them by the Master. All who do not accept their words reject Christ Himself. Yea, they shall answer unto the 5th generation of the offspring of the hollow infomercial ecumenical church of deceit rotten fruit liberal cult emergent apostate neo-evangelical popery gospel that reads Un-Christianity Today.
phew…how does he do it?
I ♥ you Tim
I know they have a bunch of services at Mars Hill, but they had one on Tuesday, 10/9 ? Typo?
Here are the links to the first and second messages in that series on 10/7 and 10/14, respectively.
Those of you with iBloat can ignore those links — the files have already been installed in your frontal lobe.
Brendt,
10/9 was the day it was posted to their RSS feed.
Tyler,
Looking back on the thread you should be <3ing NC.
BTW, I loved the bit you posted about Augustine’s retractions. I didn’t realize that.
Paul,
At risk of sounding Drisconian, WHAT A CROCK!
I not only stated that I did not agree with Ken Silva’s theology I stated that it was because it was confusing… then note I also stated:
YEP that is me, iggy… the guy Ingrid says flames everyone. The guy that Ken Silva says is not saved then hand me a rose in the place of an apology, the guy the Chris P. tell to “Just shut up” cuz I quote what he says… yep me… iggy being soooo mean that I think Ken can strive to be better… oh the humanity of it all! Notice I never stated EVER that Ken is not saved, or anything less than a brother in Christ… oh but we trash his person…
Hogwash… you have to try much harder to find a “personal attack” anything close to what Ken spews out on a daily basis…
Personally I feel you are attacking us on a personal level and so that includes you in the hypocrisy…
Now, seriously I can go to about any post by Ken Silva and find a derogatory statement about someone else… and I bet it would be much harder to do that here… even if you parse through all my own statements… Now, I am nto perfect, but I am far from calling Ken names… And if I do it is to point out that the names he is calling others seem to fit him and his own theology as well.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Ken just does it because Jesus tells him to.
I notice CR?N has a link to a Driscoll clip from this series, which included his initial comments recognizing Osteen as a brother before tackling the message from Osteen, in (as you noted, Tim) efficient, overwhelming fashion.
Nowhere in there did I hear the words “apostate”, “‘false’ Christians”, or the other common ODM catch-phrases…
Maybe they’ll take a lesson from Mark?
They didn’t take a lesson from Dr. Walter Martin, I doubt they’ll take it from Driscoll.
Its hilarious that within a week or so of each other they can condemn him for being a potty mouth, and a sign of the disrespect the new pastors have for God, adn then the next week have a Driscoll pep rally.
Well, it was the mysterious ‘editor’ – which could be multiple peolpe – and it could reveal differences of opinion on the part of the writers there. Or, it could demonstrate rank hypocrisy of a single individuals. With the lack of accountability via the ‘editor’ function, it will just have the appearance of the latter…
At the very least it shows the fundamental dishonesty in preventing conversation from taking place. Were there comments there, then that’d be exactly where we’d see some disagreements.
Tim,
Ah. That makes sense — the 10/9 podcast of the 10/7 sermon.
One more reason to look forward to heaven — time won’t have meaning and life will be less confusing.
Dismantling Osteen’s theology. Let’s see, how long does it take to quote five verses? His is not theology, it is sociology.