Why People Who Can’t Parse Shouldn’t Claim to be “Researchers”…

Posted by: Chris L
in Commentary, Ken Silva, Legalism, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, Original Articles
8
Oct

A Watchdawggie Fails Yet Again... This is becoming a habit...Earlier today, CRN.Info writer Nathan made the following comment on a separate thread:

When I was a youth pastor, I always told my kids that if the bible was ever to be turned into a good movie, it would have to be at least R-rated. I think (mainly thru bible colleges and seminaries — I have been to both) we tame down the scriptures to suit a congregation that really doesn’t live in the real world.

The other day I did a talk on loving those who are different than us. One of our more “sheltered” ladies in the church came up to me and said “I homeschool my kids so they don’t have to hear words like ‘gay’ or ‘homosexual’” I think most of Christianity is “home schooled” so they don’t have to hear the reality of the scriptures or the reality of life.

[...]

Apparently, in an effort to demonstrate that he still has no clue what a straw man is, an ODM blogger has decided to attack Nathan by adding a parenthetical straw man fallacy to Nathan’s comment.

The other day I did a talk on loving those who are different than us. One of our more “sheltered” ladies in the church came up to me and said “I homeschool my kids so they don’t have to hear words like ‘gay’ or ‘homosexual’” I think most of Christianity is “home schooled” so they [note: he doesn’t include himself in “Christianity”] don’t have to hear the reality of the scriptures or the reality of life. [note his, emphasis mine]

My daughter (who is in second grade) has been disecting sentences for her grammar class the past couple of weeks, and even she could point out that subject of the clause in question was “most of Christianity” and not simply “Christianity”, and that Nathan was excluding himself from the actual subject of the clause. This is a classbook example of what passes for “research” at ODM sites like this one. It is also a prime example of why they can’t be trusted to give advice on “discernment”, particularly when they can’t discern at the level of a second grader when blinded by an opportunity to take a potshot.

Rather humorously, once again proving that in ODM lingo “love is hate“, the same writer ironically refers to CRN.Info as a “Christian hate site”. I hear Pravda has openings for writers. Perhaps this ODM writer would be better suited there, rather than writing for a publication in the guise of Christianity…

ADDED NOTE FROM NATHAN:

Ken says: Neighbour has said he doesn’t know what a futurist is

Nathan: I know what a futurist is, I never said that I didn’t. I wrote “I have yet to figure out what a furturist is.” Ken calls McManus that in this post. Again… it would be great to have some “research” here.

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41 Comments(+Add)

1   nc    
October 8th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

It’s so hateful to try to be reasonable.

2   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 8th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

i·ro·ny

1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

3. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

3   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 2:50 pm

So Phil…Point?

4   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 8th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

Chris,
I was just trying be snarky. I just think it’s the height of irony when Ken labels this site a “hate site”.

5   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 3:58 pm

Thanks Phil!

6   Nathan    
October 8th, 2007 at 6:24 pm

I found it extremely weird that he added his “note” on the apprising site, but did not add it to the CRN site. It is word-for-word the same article, with just that missing. Interesting.

7   DT    http://dead-theologians.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

Nathan,

You said “I think (mainly thru bible colleges and seminaries — I have been to both)”

Careful about sharing your “credentials.” I shared something similiar and was gouged pretty good.

DT

8   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

“Those that seemed somewhat in conference added nothing to me.”

- Paul

9   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 8th, 2007 at 10:03 pm

except in this context I showed them to show that I too have been a part of the very organizations I harp on. If anything, I showed that my credentials are not worth it.

10   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 10:08 pm

Right, nathan, credit system dung.

11   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
October 9th, 2007 at 12:58 am

I can’t get past that photo. It’s so…so…cute!

(And I don’t really like dogs.)

I can’t get past the cute photo….something about Ken and second graders?

12   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 6:16 am

DT,

“Careful about sharing your “credentials.” I shared something similiar and was gouged pretty good.”

Oh get over yourself, LOL! I gouged you because you sounded like you were bragging and that you wanted me to know you had some special authority… You sounded like you wanted all to acknowledge you as more authoritative than others. Nathan never mentioned his degrees or accolades, he only stated he went to cemetery and made some collages…

The most impressive and godly men I know never attended any institutes… they only graduated from “DBU” Dirty Bible University… they read their bibles to the point that dirt built up on the worn gilded edges.

I am not against education, but to parade it around seems to be a sad attempt at showing they are special and above other men.

I think James states what I mean pretty clearly… in James 3.

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
I see so much posturing coming from people like Ken Silva and others who boast about their education or try to make themselves sound bigger than they really are. It almost seems pandemic.

So forgive me if I see that when one boasts in themselves I am a bit frustrated as I see that men are not much in themselves and if we boast we should boast in God.

Also, DT, it sounds like I hurt your feelings a bit… if none of what I stated here is true of you, then I apologize… if it is true… then I leave you to deal with God over it.

Be Blessed,
iggy

13   DT    http://dead-theologians.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 6:39 am

Iggy,

When stating some of my education I simply was trying to verify that I might know an inkling about whatever it was we were talking about (ie. parsing and “cemetery”). Nothing more.

DT

14   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:02 am

DT,

When stating some of my education I simply was trying to verify that I might know an inkling about whatever it was we were talking about (ie. parsing and “cemetery”). Nothing more.

As I stated…

Which then inplied that I (or others here) did not have an inkling of what we are talking about. But I guess we covered that already. = )

Be Blessed,
iggy

15   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 8:03 am

DT,
You said you weren’t going to post here anymore? Just couldn’t resist huh?

16   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 8:13 am

Joe,

I am being mean enough… we don’t need to taught him…

I for one want DT to post his opinions here.

Be Blessed,
iggy

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 8:40 am

Joe is always the welcoming committee. For the record, people say things – the grace thing ya know.

18   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 8:47 am

Julie,

I will pick less cute pictures in the future, so as to not distract you…

19   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 9th, 2007 at 9:06 am

ok, ok… enough with the side tracking. I’m the one getting attacked here. :)

20   NC    
October 9th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

We have just enough religion to make us hate,
but not enough to make us love one another.
–Jonathan Swift

21   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Rick, Iggy, and All,
Hate me if you want, I’m simply asking for people to say what they mean and stick by what they say. I don’t care if the guy posts here. Truth be told, I think he’s a relatively nice guy–I mean that. It just cracks me up when people take their pot shot and then say, “OK, I’m done posting here….blah blah blah.” Then come back to take other pot shots. Accountability is one of the keys to a successful relationship. :)

22   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

joe,

Ahhh I wont and don’t hate you, if someone wants to be a hypocrite I give them grace to be one… I have stated I will not be back to a blog or two and returned to see if they changed… and NOPE!

Though there are more I have just stayed away from after their abuse and the second time…

Steve Camp (I pointed out that he was abusive and cannot say something without a put-down.)
Mike Ratliff (Cannot take negative comment on his blog)
Tony Rose (I made the mistake twice and will not brighten that blog again with biblical truth as they are content with man-made philosophy and lying about others)
Jim Bublitz (lies about you if you catch him lie, then bans you anyway so you cannot defend yourself)
New Improved and Nicer Slice of Ingrid (Likes to flame you then close comments so you cannot comment… but who cares as she also lies about people all the time)

So it seems that if a sight lies and slanders and or teaches their “truth” and you show otherwise from history or the bible, you are mocked or banned or greeted with hostility…

(OK I also admit at times I come on strong… but I usually give great respect if I am not called names and attacked on a personal level and the one blog that was good about that is Dead Theologians… so they get a kudos for having discussion instead of a bonfire of hate)

Be Blessed,
iggy

23   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Joe – people get mad and say things – you’re married, you know. So when they slide back in use a little grace, we all need it.

I don’t hate you, just PSU.

24   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Rick,
I’ve never said to my wife, “OK, that’s it! I’m leaving!” That shows immaturity, and to make a stab then say I’m leaving and then come back with nothing more than a stab shows the same level of immaturity.

25   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 1:02 pm

OK, Joe, no grace. Just because you haven’t done it, people make mistakes. Grace – a new way to think about Christian imperfection!

26   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 1:04 pm

Joe,

I’ve never said to my wife, “OK, that’s it! I’m leaving!” That shows immaturity, and to make a stab then say I’m leaving and then come back with nothing more than a stab shows the same level of immaturity.

Now I agree… yet we are let’s think of the people who we are talking about… and also as i stated, I too have been very frustrated with some of their attitudes and “stormed off”.

Yet, if I did as you stated to my wife, I hope she would have the grace to receive me in my immaturity… or if it was turned around that I would forgive and move on… Letting the forgiveness give way to maturity.

So, I agree, yet see that love covers a multitude of sins and lying is a sin… and God’s grace and His Love through us will cover that sin and release forgiveness to that person. In that we then become the peacemakers.

Be Blessed,
iggy

27   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Ah Rick, I’m just giving you the chance to show me grace. I figure that 8 out of every 10 things I type trip your trigger so you can thank me in heaven. I realize this probably angers you some because you’re closer to seeing the world the way DT does and you’ve done this yourself in the past. Difference is, when you came back you apologized you didn’t just type a 2 sentence stab at someone.
Iggy,
IF I ever did say that to my wife, when I came back an apology would be beneficial. Why is it “ungracelike” to ask people to stick to their word? I am afraid Jesus was very ungracious in much of the gospels then. (NO, I’m not nearly enough like Jesus) but I will continue to ask people who make such a dumb statement what changed when they decide to come back.

28   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Grace = forgiveness without an apology.

29   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

It doesn’t mean we don’t ask questions or try to hold people accountable. Rick, you’re sounding like an emergent and making me sound like a Fundy! These men are religious leaders, they have a higher standard. For all that the ODM’s get wrong, they get that right! We can keep going back and forth on this one all day and when he comes back if I catch it I’m going to ask him again.
You were awfully quiet when I did the same thing to Ken.

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 1:21 pm

“Rick, you’re sounding like an emergent”

I didn’t mean to, I was trying to sound like a Christian.

For the record I made it known that Ken should still comment here.

31   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 1:25 pm

Well, I guess we come to the point where we agree to disagree once again. If someone wants to to throw a temper tantrum and threaten to run away that’s fine. When they come back, it would be nice if they had the intellectual honesty to actually say something and not just take a pot shot. I’m willing to be persecuted to hold them to that standard! (RELAX, that last sentence was a joke).

32   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 1:28 pm

When they come back, it would be nice if they had the intellectual honesty to actually say something and not just take a pot shot.

Or they could do what Chris P does and take his pot shot on a threat and never bother coming back. Although you could say that at least he’s smart enough to not try to defend the indefensible.

33   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

Joe,

Why is it “ungracelike” to ask people to stick to their word?

Actually Rick answered this very well.

Because we are all human beings that are messed up and stupid and have trouble with things like “let your yes be yes, and your no be no.” We fail God and each other… and Love covers those sins.

Grace to you Joe… and not like that other guy teaches it…
; )

iggy

34   DT    http://dead-theologians.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

Joe,

I am here just to aggravate you. It gets you doesn’t it.

DT

35   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pm

Nice, DT

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:25 pm

DT,

You and i may spar a little but I do respect that you have not been as nasty mean as many others. I commend you for not resorting to name calling and staying to scripture to base your beliefs.

be blessed,
iggy

37   DT    http://dead-theologians.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:25 pm

Joe,

No potshots here. I simply told Nathan to be “Careful about sharing your “credentials.” I shared something similiar and was gouged pretty good.”

If that is a potshot then you out to see it when I bring out the cannon.

DT

38   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:27 pm

DT,

Now that is cannon not canon… right?

Be Blessed,
iggy

39   DT    http://dead-theologians.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 7:55 am

Iggy,

All I can say is Touché.

DT

40   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:15 am

Todd (or DT)
Nah, you personally don’t. I have other people in my life for that.

41   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:53 am

Besides DT, why would your lack of integrity annoy me. :)

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