Pirates vs. Ninjas - A Blast From the Past
Recently, we seem to have come back to the topic of watchblogging and “discernment” (quotes intentional), which reminded me of an article published early this year in which one watchblog took on the “seamy underbelly” of ‘discernment’ ministries. This seems like an appropriate time for a reposting of this article, available only here on CRN.Info:
There is a campaign of destruction underway in the church. There are lies being passed off as truth; there is slander and gossip and the carnage that is being caused is causing long-term harm to the cause of the Gospel of Christ. No, I’m not talking about attacks from emergent church followers or outraged Purpose Driven disciples. I’m talking about the seamy underbelly of what goes on in the name of “discernment ministry.†I have been in ministry since 1988 and I can say with confidence that the enemy of Jesus Christ has to do very little. The church is really, really good at destroying itself.
This post is prompted by an ongoing attack against the American Family Association by several in the “discernment†community. These attacks have also been against me and Christian Worldview Network’s Brannon Howse. The squalor of the dealings that have taken place would rival that of anything you would find in a secular workplace and it saddens me to say that. I have been repeatedly told that these issues should stay behind the scenes for the “sake of Christâ€. However, those who say this are the same ones who are publicly picking fights with Christian brothers and sisters in the same line of work and using their columns and websites to attack them. This is the reason for my post. I give to you just two recent examples of how some in the “discernment realm†work.
Example One: I recently featured a very articulate guest on contemplative spirituality on the Crosstalk Show. The show went beautifully and much information was given out in warning to the church. Within a short time, however, the guest received a hostile letter from Paul Proctor, berating her for being on my radio program. He even further challenged her as to how she could let me link to the work at Herescope.com. What mattered not at all to Mr. Proctor was the fact that solid information went out to thousands of people on 87 radio stations because of the guest’s work. What mattered was that the guest had dared to be on MY radio program. Paul Proctor was convinced that he had the right to bully guests I featured on Crosstalk because he believes I am compromised. The guest then received contacts from two others in the discernment realm, friends of Proctor’s, regarding her being on my radio program.
Another example: Bud Press of the Christian Research Service website informed Rev. Ken Silva that if he didn’t stop writing for Slice of Laodicea, (because we were compromised), he would remove his links from his site. Ken refused to be bullied and strong-armed into seeing things Bud’s way and Bud removed his links.
What was it about me that had made me so repugnant that Paul Proctor and Bud Press would bully others to stay away from me? Answer: I write for Brannon Howse and the Christian Worldview Network, as does Pastor Bob DeWaay, Mark Cahill, Dwayna Litz, Jan Markell and a host of other excellent Christian writers who care about biblical truth. Because Paul Proctor, Deborah Dombrowski and Bud Press don’t agree with Brannon because, as Proctor sneeringly puts it in his latest column, he is a “dear friend†of Tim Wildmon at AFA, I am tainted goods to be avoided at all costs. There was an attempt a few months ago to get as many discernment writers as possible to drop off Brannon’s site through an old fashioned tool—peer pressure. Paul Proctor resigned from Brannon’s site and copied a number of us in on his resignation letter. When I, Bob DeWaay, Jan Markell and a number of others refused to stop publishing the truth on emergent, etc. on Brannon’s site, Paul Proctor and friends were most unhappy. Which leads us to the shameful state of events today.
What is most disturbing in this case is the gossip and false information that has been carried by these “discernment†folks. One researcher who sought to reconcile with me and who apologized for helping to spread false information was warned ahead of time to “be careful†if he talked to me. Brannon Howse was labeled a dangerous “change agentâ€, and I was accused of being an adherent to “replacement theologyâ€, despite numerous radio shows on Israel and its importance to the end times. This gossip and slander continues unabated at this hour. Worse still, these individuals are publishing columns and links to columns, like the one on Lighthouse Trails, blasting Tim Wildmon for “promoting†contemplative. These people have been harassing Tim Wildmon for months, demanding that he conduct his decency organization like their own “discernment†ministries. They have deliberately sought to find what evil they can on the American Family Association secular online bookstore link that they use for the sale of their own books. The only people finding New Age and contemplative books on Wildmon’s site are the ones spending their time looking for them: Bud Press, Deborah Dombrowski and Paul Proctor.
This is the closest thing to a nasty personal vendetta, couched in pious language, I have seen recently. Paul Proctor’s language isn’t all that pious, actually, as he calls Tim Wildmon a hypocrite and derisively refers to his friendship with Brannon in his latest column. Paul Proctor and Bud Press are not in a position of authority to demand that Tim Wildmon carry out his organization’s work according to Bud and Paul’s own standards. We answer to the Lord for our own ministries, not Bud and Paul. Further, the outrageous and threatening behavior of Bud toward Ken Silva in trying to force him to stop writing for Slice is evidence that something is clearly out of control in these men’s minds and hearts. Likewise, Paul Proctor’s troubling of a guest who appeared on my show is way over the top. That is mafioso behavior, not the behavior of a brother in Christ.
At one time I linked to research sites like Christian Research Service and Lighthouse Trails. I felt that the truth on false teaching and error was most important to get out. Things have reached a point, however, where it is plain that the false teaching entering the church isn’t the most important thing that needs addressing. This situation has been simmering underground for months. With Paul Proctor, Deborah Dombrowski and Bud Press’s latest attack on Tim Wildmon today, it has erupted into the face of the Christian public.
Is Christianity just a matter of holding right positions, or should it impact how we relate to each other as believers? Are the commands of Scripture telling us to be tender-hearted and forgiving of one another less important than the verses about heresy and false teaching? Is gossip and slander okay if it is conducted by those knee deep in research on contemplative spirituality? If some New Agers have more personal peace and treat people more kindly than born-again Christians, doesn’t it say something about the content of our hearts? We can rant and rave about contemplative spirituality, meditation, breath prayers and yoga until we’re blue in the face, but if we can’t reconcile with fellow believers who believe the same things and would prefer to publicly find fault and attack them because they don’t do everything the way we do, we have nothing to share with the world. We become frauds.
The public attacks on Tim Wildmon and American Family Association need to stop. The gossip and slander against me, Brannon Howse and Tim Wildmon need to stop. It is because of Brannon Howse’s encouragement that Tim Wildmon has allowed countless programs on purpose driven error and emerging church issues to air on his large network of Christian stations. It is because of Brannon Howse that the truth on these same issues is reaching untold thousands who would otherwise never hear about these matters. I know, because I get the emails from people who read my columns, some of which had never heard of contemplative spirituality, etc. before encountering columns on Christian Worldview Network.
When soldiers begin to turn and shoot their own, combat fatigue has set in. No general would long keep soldiers like this in the field. Speaking from my own experience, combat fatigue is a huge menace in this job. I have had to cut back because of my own dangerous level of fatigue recently. How long the Lord will keep any of us in the field if these issues are not resolved, is questionable. Like the church at Ephesus in the book of Revelation, we can become very good at discerning error from truth, but when we’ve lost our first love for the Lord Jesus, it starts showing in our relationships. The Lord’s words warn us that he will put our lampstands out completely if we don’t repent. It’s a wake up call for all of us involved in putting out this information.
While I’m not in complete concert with this writer, I have to agree with them on many of the statements made in this heartfelt article.
August 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
I remember this moment. Brannon Howse wrote a fine article on his site regarding the three people who would no longer be columnists. I, however, have struggled with Howse’s ministry because of people like Ken Silva and at times, Ms. Schleuter’s tone and pride herself, and have written about it.
But..the irony here. How can a person say all of that and not even see it for herself? How does she think Paul Proctor sees himself? I’m guessing he sees himself much like she sees her self in relation to the sites and ministries she goes after, that he’s protecting sheep from wolves, that he’s the remnant, that he’s following true and pure Christianity.
Too much soap opera.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
I agree with Julie. How can a person be so blind to her own behavior while documenting things that so closely mirror her own words of scorn and misrepresentation to others?
She says “Is Christianity just a matter of holding right positions, or should it impact how we relate to each other as believers? Are the commands of Scripture telling us to be tender-hearted and forgiving of one another less important than the verses about heresy and false teaching? Is gossip and slander okay if it is conducted by those knee deep in research on contemplative spirituality? If some New Agers have more personal peace and treat people more kindly than born-again Christians, doesn’t it say something about the content of our hearts? ”
I feel so sad that the enemy has thrown such a blanket of deception over some who see such deception in others. And as you recently reminded us , Chris, they are not our enemies. I have to constantly let God’s Spirit remind me of that. We all must remember to walk as Jesus even while correcting some who cannot see themselves in God’s mirror. And I realize that the evil One has deceived me in some areas about which I am unaware, isn’t that the nature of deception?
I so hate and despise the devil and I pray for a revival that among other things would again bring us supernaturally together around the Lord Jesus.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
I guess part of my point in re-posting this was to show that we can find ourselves in the same position, trading oppression for oppresorship, much like the children of Israel under Solomon. She has obviously felt similar to the way we do about the effects of false-’discernment’, and in that, I see hope - hope in God’s providence in opening eyes.
I used to be a horribly legalistic and judgmental person, capable of writing many of the posts on CR?N or opinion pieces right next to Ann Coulter (some of whose books I still have on a shelf somewhere). Having been there, and having found myself confronted on the road to Damascus, with so many casualties behind me, I never want to go back…
It does not have to be a ‘war’…
August 29th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Wow!! The quote about being tender hearted gives me hope that we are all seeking after the same God and trying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
August 29th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
I could pick fly off the moon, coming from a Jack Hyles backround I was proficient in judging. Since I was an English minor I could creatively blend metaphors and hyperbole and feel so warrior-like in dismembering anyone who I felt would impress my peers.
When the Spirit began to open my eyes and convict me of my pride, I started to see the overall picture differently. OK, now I’ll be honest perhaps for some reader who may be going through something similar. I felt somewhat uneasy about lowering the rhetoric because “What if I’m compromising!?”. Or “I have a reputation to uphold”.
It’s easier to stay on one side and just let em have it because when you ask the Holy Spirit to help you choose your words and also convict you of your oride it becomes much more complicated. Attempting to be like Jesus is very satisfying yet difficult to discern.
I must begin with abject humility about God’s grace in my salvation and my preservation. I can never become detached from that foundation. This is a process that I believe the Holy Spirit is teaching the many divided segments of the evangelical world. There is a subtle difference between division and separation.
August 29th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Wasn’t this one of Ingrid’s infamous disappearing posts?
August 29th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
I laughed I cried… I thought “they eat their own.”
Did Ingrid post this and then later take it down without explanation?
We will never know for sure… and frankly I really don’t care… I only saw that they really do not “love one another.”
Blessings,
iggy
August 30th, 2007 at 5:15 am
Yes, this was a ‘disappearing post‘, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t meant when it was written - which shows a glimmer of hope…
August 30th, 2007 at 8:10 am
It doesn’t help that with Ingrid, any criticism, no matter how benign, coming from a quarter she doesn’t like, is an attack.
A bird landing on her wall is tantamount to barbarians at the gate.
And that “post and pull” routine is a bit passive-aggressive, but psych terminology is to be avoided unless it serves her purpose.
If only she would reread her post with an eye toward herself.
August 30th, 2007 at 8:40 am
“A bird landing on her wall is tantamount to barbarians at the gate.”
OK, now you got me laughing. I do not mind a light hearted simile. If you had not told me, and you held a gun to my head, I would have said with full confidence Ingrid didn’ write those words. Pray for a more expansive application for all of us!
August 31st, 2007 at 11:38 am
I would like to point out Ingrids article was more based on gossip and hearsay rather than fact because I dont see any documentation that backs up what Ingrid stated.
Perhaps thats why she pulled the article.
I dont know.
I do know I pulled a link of a guy who choose to carry this article.
I was then contacted by Ingrid wanting to talk about why I pulled this link.
Im accountable to Christ for what goes on my blog not anyone else.
Plus perhaps show me one article from anyone Ingrid accused of all this nasty stuff putting down Ingrid or attacking her after this article was written.
There is not a one.
The parties accused choose to act Christlike.
Ingrid on the other hand as well as her husband launched a tirad of emails at me. all were immature and un Christlike void of reason or wisdom
.
Ingrid cant see the real Ingrid anymore Im convinced.
All this stuff with comparing Hybels to Chaiman Mao etc.. is way over the top and will just see her usual audience of yes and ameners singing her praises.
This is great for the ego of course but bad for the Body of Christ because Ingrid has some good solid information that could be of value.
Most people will ignore and discredit her because she does not see her own un Christlike delivery.
Ive did the same thing and been a jerk and hide behind my own righteousness as well.
So I know how you can be blinded.
I still believe what I believe and inform people own but Im not going to take shots at Dan Kimballs hair or his love of Brian Seltzer.
Rather I will point out the occult rituals he promotes such as the Labyrinth show what scripture teaches.
And then people have to decide for themselves.
Perhaps ask Ken Silva if he was bullied by Bud Press as well.
My suggestion is to perhaps read 2 Timothy 2:23-26 before we write a article.
“But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
The enemy not God will put us into a rage so we just go out and launch on folks.
This takes all the credability away from our argument.
And Im convinced this is the devils ploy that puts us in the place of preaching to the choir instead of helping the Body of Christ.
And Ive fallen for this trap as well.
We need to still show the love toward those we disagree with.
I have had some good emails back and forth from iggy.
I still dont agree with iggy but I still love him as a friend and brother in the Lord.
And thats all I have to say about that.
Peace
Tim Wirth
August 31st, 2007 at 12:21 pm
In the above comment re. Dan Kimball: “Im not going to take shots at Dan Kimballs hair or his love of Brian Seltzer.
Rather I will point out the occult rituals he promotes such as the Labyrinth show what scripture teaches.”
I have marked differences with Dan Kimball, however in fairness Dan did pull the article that Lighthouse Trails had discussed which referenced the Labyrith. And Dan has said that he does not “endorse” labyriths.”
August 31st, 2007 at 12:32 pm
WOW Ken,
That was as close as you have ever gotten to an actual apology!
LOL!
What a blessing!
(No sarcasm is meant by this at all!)
Blessed,
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 12:49 pm
iggy,
It might help you to pay a bit closer attention to what you read. I wasn’t apologizing for anything. I was correcting Tim Wirth’s misrepresentation of Kimball’s professed view re. labyrinths.
Bless yourself.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Thank you, Ken, for the clarification. The universe is again righted!
And the “bless yourself” indicates emotion. Iggy can be irritating, I hope it isn’t getting to you. BTW - You should have a prayer day for him on CRN. No?
I would love in all seriousness, Ken, for you to give a substantive overview of the men that consider themselves “ermergent” and give a subjective assessment of who is conservative - moderate - and liberal within the movement. If anyone has the information like that it is you.
I envision you in a stone bell tower on top of a castle, burning the lantern, writing with a feather pen, and crows lighting upon the window giving you little scrolls of information. Come on, that’s funny. Seriously if Chris P., Chris L, and me get together some Saturday to play worship music and go out to eat with the wives would you be open to it? Maybe we could chip in to bring you to Tampa.
Believers with differences laying them down long enough to pick up instruments with which to worship God. Novel, huh?
August 31st, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Ken,
Then your lack of humility is noted! LOL! Just when I thought there was hope… ; )
Be Blessed,
iggy
(The unsaved one according to Ken Silva. LOL!)
August 31st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Ken,
I am not trying to be irritating here…. LOL!
I think it is you that need read closer! LOL!
Here is my quote…
Note it does not say it WAS an apology, it was as close as you have ever gotten to an actual apology! LOL
You crack me up…
May God Bless you and Keep you,
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Reading minds now are we Rick? C’mon, don’t flatter him. My point was I don’t need his “blessing” so he might as well bless himself.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Ken: Just so you know I was not stating you took shots at Dans hair or music. Others do and whats the point with doing that.
I am aware that Dan pulled the article that Lighthouse Trails used.
Can you point me toward the article or statement that Dan made stating he no longer endorses the labyrinth?
Thanks
Tim
I would be interested in posting that.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Does Dan endorse the Labrynth? Do not care.
Do I endorse the labrynth? No.
Do I know what the labrynth is? No.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:07 pm
O and Ken just to correct something. I was not trying to misrepresent Dans views of the labyrinth. Dans views are very well spelled out including his views on the labyrinth in Dans own book .” The Emerging Church.” If Dan has changed his mind about what he put in print and then will have it retracted so no one stumbles I’ll be the first to rejoice.
Peace
Tim
August 31st, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Tim With,
“Can you point me toward the article or statement that Dan made stating he no longer endorses the labyrinth?” I’m sorry I can’t as I only passed on what he personally told me on the phone. You might ask him for one.
“O and Ken just to correct something. I was not trying to misrepresent Dans views of the labyrinth.” O and Tim, if you look again, I never said that you were.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:04 pm
So is the labyrinth that toy with the little silver ball that you tried to get the ball around the course without going through the holes?
I support that. And because I’ve been cooped up here my hair is very long. And I am very free with my music.
Oh no, I’m Dan Kimball!
August 31st, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Ken,
You “bless yourself” comes across more like a nastier version of “screw yourself”…
But then grace seems to mean so little to you… and that blessing to you are curses…
which reminds me of a verse!
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
I give you “sweet” and you give me bitter, I bless you and you curse me, I offer you light and you condemn me to darkness…
I still love you in the Name of Jesus… LOL!
Be BLESSED!
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 10:27 pm
OK, I’ve tried humor but my attempts have obviously been much too intellectual for the commenters here so now I will ask openly.
What - is - the - labyrinth??
August 31st, 2007 at 10:38 pm
It was a movie with Muppet’s and David bowie!
I sort liked it when I saw it… I think it was the 80’s.
It is a drawing in the form of a maze which prayer stations at different points to pause and reflect on God. It was used by early pagans and also early Christians who acquisitioned it as a form of worship as they reflect on their “journey” in faith.
Since most people were illiterate it was a way to express their faith in a tangible way.
Here is a link though I have not looked really close at it so I cannot say I endorse all they say… but it gives the “Christian” history.
http://www.kingofpeace.org/labyrinth.htm
I think the “Christian” version is not as evil as Ken and company accuses it… though the pagan style based on the mother goddess I would stay away from for obvious reasons! LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Rick,
Here is another link…
It is under Christian Use…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_Labyrinth
Blessings,
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Thanks, Iggy. Is it kind of like stopping on different blogs to pray?
August 31st, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Hey Rick since you asked here is a good article on the labyrinth.
http://www.letusreason.org/Nam30.htm
Ken as for Dan Kimball I know where he stands on topics because of what he has in print and there has never been a public statement on Dans views on the labyrinth.
So believe what you will bro.
PS
and Ken here are your 2 comments in different posts.
“I was correcting Tim Wirth’s misrepresentation of Kimball’s professed view re. labyrinths.”
And then in a post to me-
““ my comments you quote-O and Ken just to correct something. I was not trying to misrepresent Dans views of the labyrinth.
your comments
†O and Tim, if you look again, I never said that you were. ”
Dans professed views on the labyrinth are very well documented in Dans own book”The Emerging Church” on page 169.
What is it that this post was about???
Sorry to carry this so far off topic.
Peace
Tim
August 31st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Rick,
To Ken that would most likely be an abomination! LOL!
Really I see this more like Christmas or Easter… both have roots in paganism, yet have been acquisitioned by Christians as Holidays.
To me if I walk in a straight line on a beach, down a crooked path on a trail in the mountains, or follow a labyrinth designed for Christian prayer and contemplation… there really is not difference.
Again, there is a big difference in worshipping Ishtar on Easter than Celebrating the Risen Christ… as there is a big difference in worshipping the mother goddess in a form of a prayer labyrinth and worship the One True God…
But them some are weaker brothers (not a put down to anyone at all) and if they are not comfortable, then as with some and Easter or Christmas should not participate…
Blessings,
iggy
August 31st, 2007 at 11:16 pm
me clarify this statement
“Ken as for Dan Kimball I know where he stands on topics because of what he has in print and there has never been a public statement on Dans views on the labyrinth.”
There has never been a public statement (to my knowledge) that Dan has changed his views on the labyrinth and now no longer endorses it.
And that in itself would make it very complicated for Dan-a reprint on his book, retraction of the CT article etc..
Im done now.
Peace
Tim
September 1st, 2007 at 1:02 am
Tim W.,
I only told you that this is what Kimball said to me personally. It’s not an argument, it’s simply what he said. The rest you’ll have to take up with him.
It’s well documented I’m no Kimball apologist. Frankly I would say you and I agree: Dan has said one thing in print, and then to me he has said something else.
September 1st, 2007 at 8:29 am
OK - I come into the labyrinth issue as a novice (I only found out on this thread) having read the articles given to me for which I say thanks. So for whatever its worth I approach somewhat impartial about the whole issue. That doesn’t guarantee inerrancy, but is provides a degree of impartiality.
There are some things that are lawful but unwise. I believe it is unwise to bring advent wreaths and labyrinths and the like into evangelicalism. There are many things that this does including removing the spiritual essence from Christianity and attaching it to icons and observances. It also can lead to unbiblical unions with other religions or sects of Christianity because of the common familiararity with certain icons.
Why does this happen? My view is boredom with Christ and a reaction to the petrification of evangelicalism as a whole. I cannot blame their desire for more, I think we must be careful though. As I’ve said in a recent post, I believe a revival is needed. These different and new trends have to be sifted thoroughly and with caution, but what doesn’t need to happen and what is counter productive and unsciptural is to make people verbal piñatas if indeed your intention is correction and not just adding to your self serving “watchman” moniker and attracting more accolades from the like minded.
Remember, from God’s perspective:
Ministries are smaller than they might appear on earth.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:19 am
Having said all that I have an announcement that will shock some and only confirm the suspicions of others.
Starting at 3:30 PM EST today I will become Roman Catholic. This will last until January when I again come back to evangelicalism. During those months you may refer to me as Father Frueh (nice ring) and then in January back to Rick.
GO IRISH!!!!
Hail Mary, full of grcae, blessed art thou….
September 1st, 2007 at 9:27 am
“and not just adding to your self serving “[watching the so-called] watchman†moniker and attracting more accolades from the like minded.”
Sounds like good advice for you as you accept your virtual pats on the back from your new apostatizing new evangelical buddies here.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:32 am
no you’re self serving - no YOU’RE self serving…
You can’t get me down today, Ken, I am celebrating a big Irish win!!!
Hey Ken, make sure you note when Joe and Tim and Nathan and others openly disagree with me on many issues. Mark it down and study the exchanges and maybe you might see the way brethren should communicate. Not always perfect but stiving to reflect Him.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:39 am
By the way, Ken, when you say “new apostatizing new evangelical buddies” you are not only being adolescent, you are cursing Christ’s body. Serious business…
Liberal, compromising, heretics, and the like are to be used with caution.
But apsotacy should only be used in the most blatant and open rejection of Chrsit and His blood. You are in very dangerous waters labeling believers as such and you lose whatever credibility you have left.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:21 am
Ken had credibility!?!?!?!?
ROTFLMBO!!!!
My spleen just split!
I think that just when someone “condemns” another that they then cross the line of having credibility…
I mean even in this thread i corrected Ken’s correction of me and he could not acknowledge it!
God give grace to the HUMBLE and resists the PROUD… and the fact that Ken comes here and shows his pride and cannot accept that others might be right and he could be wrong shows a lack of humility…
I can already hear Ken’s whiny reply…
Be Blessed,
iggy