Love is hate, War is peace - 1984 Redux
Avast ye landlubbers, lest we chum the waters with ye’r entrails! Thus were the calls of the pirates of past centuries. While the language has evolved quite a bit, the words of war and strife that long preceeded the Pirates of the Barbary Coast still pollute the world. Sadly, as in the days of Pope Urban II and the later terrors of Torquemada, such words have become part of the language of the church, with frequent war-like language directed at brothers and sisters, though sometimes the casting of such words is almost Orwellian…
Love is Hate
While many Christian bloggers (sometimes ourselves included) may like to say they believe in the second greatest commandment, to ‘love their neighbor’, their writings and actions bear more resemblence to the Sadduccee interpretation of neighbor (”Other believers who look and believe exactly like me”), than to the all-encompassing view given by Christ (”everyone, especially those who you disagree with”). In the conversations of today, this is no more apparent than in discussions around Seeker-Sensitive and Emergent/Emerging Christians.
ODM websites, in particular, spit out terms like “man-lovers” or “man-pleasers” in response to kingdom calls for compassion or in response to Christians who believe that God created a world that sits somewhere between free will and predestination. They instantly elevate any theological disagreement as if it were the preaching of another gospel rather than simply disagreeing with the systematic (man-made) theology of the ODM, and blast away accordingly, ignoring that Paul spells out the simplicity of the gospel message in I Cor 15:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
Instead, “love” as it relates to those they disagree with has become a code word for “make sure they know they’re wrong”. As I have noted before, many ODM’s have recast the two greatest commandments into something of hate, not love:
Love your God: Determine what it means for you to obey God, based heavily on tradition or your own social mores and - possibly - the Bible (insofar as the Ten Commandments are concerned), and then expect everyone else to “obey God†based on your definition. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate. Additionally, to love God means to know exactly how He works and does not work and to know all the ‘Christianese’ terms which define these workings, along with all the right soteriology, and to then expect everyone else to understand God exactly the way you do. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate.
Love your Neighbor: Step 1: If your ‘neighbor’ is somewhere between mistaken and apostate (see “Love your Godâ€), your first and foremost duty is to make them see the error of their ways, and if they do not, to warn everybody else that they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate, and by all means mock them and distort anything/everything that makes them mistaken or apostate in your eyes. Step 2: If they are still around after Step 1, and if they are in need, it might be a nice thing to do to help them out.Â
In contrast to this, in Galatians 6, Paul writes to us:
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.Â
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
I would also note the “IF” in v.1, as disagreeing with a tenent of a particular systematic theology does not automatically equate to sin or false teaching. One of the takeaways from Paul’s observation is that we have a job to reap a harvest, and when a group of people is dedicated to shooting other harvesters in the back “in the name of love”, then there’s just something wrong with their definition of “love”…
Some folks have asked, though, “what about the legitimate threats/issues pointed out by these ODM’s? Aren’t you throwing the baby out with the bathwater?” I would reply with a question: If you were to visit a surgeon to work on your body, would you want one with a track record of, more often than not, amputating appendages which may not need to be removed? There are better places to go for ‘discernment’, which seem to have a bit better track record than ODM blogs like C?N/SoL/AM. Some of these include:
- Reasons to Believe
- Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
- The Christian Research Institute
- Stand to Reason
- Walter Martin’s Religious Info Net
War is Peace
One of the more alarming aspects of the shift in dialog and, as described by Christianity Today, the ‘angry bloggers’ in this discussion is the rank demonization and militarization in the tactics of these organizations. Whether it is the title
A microcosm example of this occurred on this site, when we adjusted our course to respond more so to ideas than individuals. In response to this, a prominent ODM blogger replied in our comments section:
I’m not open to discussing this with you I’m not going to be commenting here after this. The lines have now been drawn… [emphasis mine]
Classically, these ODM’s have justified their violent rhetoric via self-visualization as modern descendents of John the Baptist and Elijah (though, obviously, sans the direct inspiration, which is the problem with this line of argument), or via Jesus’ purging of the money-changers in the Temple (which is a poor exegesis of the most likely motivation for this event). Regardless, their methodology is aimed at other believers and has the timbre of a clanging cymbal.
Just as an example, one of these ODM’s has published an article headed with a Christian Pirate Flag (see above)Â headed:
You’re Not Fulfilling Your Biblical Duty! Repent!
The purpose of this particular web page is to be forwarded to pastors who don’t give expository preaching in every worship service (or most worship services), to put them on notice (ominously “The Bible Warns Us About Preachers Like You.”) if they don’t change. Steven Furtick describes the typical sentiment behind this type of ultimatum this way:
Don’t preach practical stuff to me. I would actually have to do something about it. Instead, tickle my brain with abstract philosophical rhetoric that I can say Amen about, nod my head in agreement with, and go home just as mean and carnal as I came in.
Preach about topics that make me feel smart and elite, rather than preaching the pure, simple, practical Gospel of Jesus in a way that a plumber and a doctor can both understand and relate to at the same time.
Go round and round about the minutia of the 2% of Christianity that churches disagree about rather than finding common purpose in the essentials of our faith and teaching us to make a difference in a lost and hurting world.
When you preach on marriage, for instance, don’t tell me practically how to treat my wife better. Spend 40 minutes talking about the mystical union of Christ and the church as it relates to the rapture and the design of the tabernacle in relation to Levitical dietary laws as understood by the Council of Trent.
That’ll bless me.
And I’ll go home, fat and happy because of the latest cognitive dump, and I’ll continue to treat my wife like crap and my kids like dogs.
And whatever you do…don’t preach messages telling lost people how to meet Jesus. I’ve already heard it, and I’ve already met Him. I want to go deeper.
Everybody else can go to hell. God will save ‘em if He wants to.
In a bit less hyperbolic manner, if you examine the three primary teaching methods of Jesus, you get a different, balanced perspective on teaching/preaching. There are three methods used by Jesus and other contemporary rabbis (also called sages), which are: hagadah (”knowing the Word”), halakah (”doing the Word” or practical application), and parable to tie hagadah and halakah together. Further, if we examine Jesus’ actual words, his teaching is divided almost equally between the three.
But I digress.
We are not at war within the church, and while there is a need for discernment, an amount of charity among brothers is required, without nasty attempts to first prove that the target of our criticism is not our brother, so that we can fire away without impacting our conscience. Our enemy is not of flesh and blood, as Paul taught us, and when we pray for people in these ODM’s, we are not praying for our enemies (even though they may treat us as theirs), but for brothers who are harming the body via demonization and impeding the harvest we are called to bring in.
While it is difficult, and we are not perfect, it is important that we strive not to exact eye for an eye, but instead try to choose non-violent methods (some more creative than others) in counteracting the cannons precariously aimed within the walls of God’s Temple, and to remember that love is required. As noted in one of the guiding principles of my non-denominational denomination:
In essentials, unity,
In non-essentials, charity,
In all things love…
Grace and Peace,
Chris
August 27th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
I don’t know if this applies here, but I just wrote a blog post talking about the “watch dogs” and blogs and such…
Now you’ve gone and written this post and I just can’t compete. Sigh.
August 27th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Please, Julie, are you new here? Grace to save sinners for sure, but after conversion you will be on a short leash. Any definition of grace that doesn’t SEEM to give license to sin is way too small.
On my best day in 32 years, a day in which I prayed for hours, the day in which I devoured the Word, the day in which I preached and many were saved, the day in which my thought life remained sanctified, on THAT day I needed as much grace as I did on the very worst and faithless day I’ve ever had in those same 32 years.
The gracelessness that permeates the blogasphere grieves the heart of God. Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.
August 27th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Um…I’m missing something. What?
I think you’re being sarcastic in some spots, but I’m not sure…what are you saying, Rick?
August 27th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Julie, Julie, have I been so long with you that you do not know me? The first sentence was a little sarcasm that you would indentify with, the rest is truth that you also would identify with.
For future reference, when I intend to rebuke you, I will say Ms. Neidlinger. I don’t think I’ll need those terms. I enjoyed your article about the state of blogs. I feel your pain.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Overall, I think this is a well-written, well-thought out post. However, because of the reality of what’s going on in churches today and passing for discipleship I thought I would hazard a comment or two here.
First let me say that I sometimes find a number of posts over-the-top and somewhat vitriolic or mocking - on BOTH sides. The defenders of “anything goes” Christianity sometimes reminds of the homosexuals who plead for tolerance, and at the first hint of intolerance cry and moan.
On the other side, I find the whole “poster” scandal to be in poor taste (I noticed that Ingrid never made much about them at all, unless I’m mistaken - kudos to her).
I strongly believe that the new church methodologies that are emerging are in terrible error (look at this poor attempt by Saddleback over this past weekend: http://gallery.mac.com/crosebrough33#100047/100_0621&bgcolor=black).
It screams that we’re just like you and when you join with us the transition will be smooth and allow you to retain all your old affiliations. I know, I know… there are courses and so on, but funny how the actual fruit never matches up with the theory.
No doubt, the mass of Christianity right now is apostate. How do you determine this? Simply use the word of God as the yardstick (Rev 11:1).
Remember that scripture clearly states that in these days (if you believe we’re in the last day) people will “heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.” Entertain us, make it exciting, make it multi-sensory, give us some leeway. This is the message in the mass of evangelicism today (I’m not an evangelical at all by the way - just a Christian).
Denial of self, the narrow path, striving to enter in through the strait gate… foreign concepts to many.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Also, I would think that your assumptions (or those of S Furtick) that because people have strong biblical views they are not actually living their faith in the real world is riddled with error. That is very dangerous ground and leads to a lot of “pharisee”, “saduccee” comparisons that might have no basis.
Not everyone preaching discernment falls into this group, though some might. Of course, on the other side you have the “numbers” people who somehow think that numbers equate with God’s approval or blessing… confusing good marketing with God’s presence.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
BTW, I stand corrected on my 4:12pm post re Ingrid:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=533
My apologies
August 27th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
This may be very simplistic but…Perhaps these are foreign concepts to many because they are vague concepts. What does the narrow path look like? straight gate? etc…
Definitions are difficult when people have so many interpretations of what an “idea” looks like. Is Ken Silva on the narrow path? In his mind he is. Just like in my mind I am. Ken and I vary drastically in our understanding of scripture. Ken will vehemently defend his position and deny mine. Is it possible that we are both right? I don’t know.
Now one would argue that Jesus told what it meant to be on the narrow path…Denial of self, obeying his commandments, picking up your cross daily, etc…If those are the measurments than it seems that I and God can be the only deciders of how well I’m living up to the standard.
My 2 cents as they say.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Paul,
You noted:
Furtick’s quote wasn’t in response to people having strong biblical views, it was in response to people who say they left a church because “they weren’t being fed” (which is often given as code for ‘not enough expository preaching’).
I believe there is a place for expository preaching, but that it has to be balanced with application and anecdote (preferably parable). Having been to a church that purposely balanced these, I can attest to there being folks that complained almost every single week that the focus of the sermon was not on deep exposition. It is about balance, balance, balance - Solomon advises us in Ecclesiastes to avoid extremes, and when we move too far in any direction - whether toward pragmatism, -praxis, -doxy, etc. - we are shorting part of the kingdom.
I do not share your pessimism with Christianity today, as I do not take the pre-mil view. Rather, I see where the church is adapting to fix past sins of omission in -praxis in the ‘emerging’ of the emerging church, while working to stress that we can’t swing too far toward -praxy without impacting -doxy.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Paul what was your point in putting up the photo album from Chris Rosebraugh site? Were you dissapointed with Saddlebacks event? Not biblical enough? What would have been satisfactory?
August 27th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Rev.11.1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
Huh???
August 27th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Paul,
The sense I get from your post and most of the watchdoggies post is that any sort of enjoyment is somehow wrong. That view really despises the many gifts God has given us to be enjoyed on this earth, right now.
The “denial of self” that scriptures talks about isn’t the denial of enjoyment, its placing the self below others and God, to serve them, and consider them better than ourselves in our dealings with them. The ascetics would practice self-flagellation, in which they’d whip their backs body. While that was a kind of self-denial that’s not what the scriptures demand. The gospel has very little to do with refusing to go to concerts and other events that are fun. And sadly that’s where I see many of the watchdoggies, and even your comment going.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Paul - I didn’t think Ingrid had let them slip through. I dialogued with the guys at Pyro about the posters being over the top but they were having none of it. They posted a few more.
August 27th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Am I the only one who thinks the misspelling of Furtick’s name in the following articles is a purposeful, albeit subtle, insult?
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=2964
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=2963 (that one in particular, since the title spells it perfectly well, no doubt for search engine purposes, yet the post itself misspells is)
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/08/steven_furtick_1.html (in this one, you actually have to go to the 3rd paragraph to find the first misspelling)
Even if it was accidental, it needs to be corrected. It’s disrespectful.
August 27th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
All I know is that Perry Noble had his worship team play Hell’s Bell’s by AC/DC in church flashing an “Illuminate” sign……….kinda makes you want to lift up the sign of the goat now doesn’t it? My AC/DC days are long gone and I surely would not want that music played in the House of God….(which, if ya follow Jesus words….is to be a PLACE OF PRAYER)…uh oh…Jesus pulled out a whip and went to town on those “in the pulpits” now didn’t He? Somehow the religious leaders had not made the House of God a house of prayer but a den of thieves…back to Hell’s Bell’s…..seems like the satanic rock thieves have come in to deceive the sheep…..all in the name of “getting the numbers” of course.
So play your Hell’s Bell’s and 80’s rock series….why even try to tell me Jimmy Page was SAVED when Zeppelin wrote Stairway to Heaven….hey man…it has the word HEAVEN in the title…they GOT TO BE CHRISTIAN!!
Welcome to the freak show…..the Bell has tolled on the church in America…when the tragedy strikes and the meltdown comes….(which it will ….Judgment like you’;ve never seen before….the weather is NOTHING BABY!!)
you better know Jesus….not just have Him on your LIPS….but know HIS WORD…hear HIS VOICE….walk WITH HIM….otherwise…the bell will toll you right into destruction.
the watchman are sounding the alarm but sadly no one can hear us over the gonging of the bells from hell.
August 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Possibly the best post I have read on this blog.
Thank you very much!
Much Peace!
August 27th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Chris,
Having listened to Steven Furtick a number of times (I have family that attends his church), I confess to being troubled by (1) his apparent assumption that christians interested in doctrine are spiritually fat, lazy and selfish and (2) his belittling tone (who are these people who are provoking him?). Could you explain to me how he is somehow different from the “watchdoggies” who you are criticizing?
And wouldn’t the “balance” that you are stressing include a focus on all of God’s truth, rather than focusing on the lowest common denominator? I’m thinking about the warning, for example, in Hebrews 6:1-3? How would you square Pastor Furtick’s statement with the practice of the early church - which seemed devoted in practice not only to evangelism, but to the “apostle’s teaching” (Acts 2:42)? Isn’t this the point of Paul’s telling Timothy to “preach the Word” in 2 Timothy 3:16-4:2?
If the ODMs are a problem, how is Pastor Steven any different?
I’m not arguing for orthodoxy over orthopraxy, BTW… aren’t the two really - at their heart - interrelated and, in the end, indispensible?
August 28th, 2007 at 7:57 am
T.J. who said that? Seriously what Pastor did you hear say that? Also did you attend the service at Noble’s church? Did you hear the sermon? Do you know who is in his congregation? Or is all this innuendo and assumption because your not a fan of the methodology?
I really would like to know?
August 28th, 2007 at 8:00 am
Please resist the urge to lump everyone who disagrees with the new wave of churches into the same group. That’s not the case…
The issue today is that, as my pastor often says, “The name of Jesus is being used as cheese is used on a moustrap.”
chris: what is so vague about a narrow/confined path, denial of self and striving to enter the kingdom of God? These are the words of our Lord Jesus as He spoke to simple people - not theologians or doctors of the law. These concepts only become confusing when you are intent on overlaying your own philosophies and desires on top of Christ’s teachings.
It is very possible that both you and Ken are wrong, but God will be the final judge.
To answer your other post regarding the Saddleback video, I would not say that I was disappointed but using it to simply illustrate a point: worldly marketing tactics, not the gospel are the vehicle of gathering people today.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:01 am
Guess who was TIME’s 2006 person of the year? YOU. That’s right - you and me. In our present age, life is all about me (even when I’m worshipping or doing something for someone else, I am the one deriving benefits). So what do churches do? They capitalize on this and feed the flesh… TANNING BEDS? Give me a break.
The danger is not the Dalai Lama or Osama bin Laden types as much as it is pastors masquerading as true men of God and leading people astray.
Can you come up with one epistle from Romans to Jude that did not deal with preachers - false preachers - who were mimicking the God-called ministry and leading people astray? The epistles are littered with warnings about this. On the one hand you had the dogmatic types but on the other hand (outlined in Jude and 2 Peter 2) you see the promotion of loose living.
That’s what’s being promoted today. “BBQ and Baptisms”, “Hip Hop Weekend”, “AC/DC’s Hells’ Bells”.
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness…” (Is 5:20). BTW, I noticed this verse didn’t make Perry’s list here: http://www.perrynoble.com/2007/08/23/my-bible-journey-2/
What would you say to the church in Ephesus who was able to sit back, listen to a man preach and then discern that he was a FALSE apostle? (Rev 2) Were they judgmental and harsh? No, in fact, Christ commended them.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:08 am
Tim Reed: Again, I don’t classify myself as a watchdog at all. I have no problem with enjoyment and would suggest that doing pennance would draw anyone an inch closer to God.
However, the Bible is clear that we are not to simply run the same course of the world. Look what Paul said in Ephesians 4:21-23:
“IF so be that you have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you PUT OFF concerning the former [lifestyle] the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts… and that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
Somehow, I don’t classify attending a rock concert or watching R-rated movies in this category.
I’m so sorry you see my comments as trying to deny you any fun, but when your fun is an offense to a holy God, then I would suggest that all of us should think twice. A lot of things are fun, but not all things are wise to partake of.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Paul and T.J. before you continue on your campaign I would encourage you to actually go to newspring.cc and actually listen to the sermon series.
Quote from Perry during the sermon “Eternity is real, Heavan and Hell are real” “You don’t get to pick and choose where you spend it”. For the record he used Luke Chapter 16:19-31
Again it’s less about the message and more about the method that you don’t approve of.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Wes,
First off, I would note that Furtick says “What that usually means”, and this rings true with me as I look back to people who I have heard use one of the phrases he mentioned (or similar ones), which really boiled down to ‘teach doctrine every week and vaguely convict me, but not so much that I actually have to do anything about it’. In a number of cases, these were people who wanted lots and lots of sermons on eschatology (which has limited value in orthopraxy, depending on the view taken), differentiating doctrine between denominations, etc. In the business world (which I live in), these are the same types of folks that want to talk, talk and talk some more, but don’t really want to be challenged to action.
As I read Hebrews 6:1-3, the ‘elementary teachings’ seem to be the items of doctrine that so many ODM sites harp on as not being dealt with enough (sin, faith, death, etc.). I would say that Jesus indicates that the real meat is in DOING the word - which requires an emphasis on application, balanced with the knowledge required for application. -doxy and -praxy do indeed go hand-in-hand, but -praxy is often based on a more limited set of scriptures than a focus on -doxy.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:27 am
And yet he also warned them to repent that they weren’t doing it with the right motives.
4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place
August 28th, 2007 at 8:35 am
chris: they didn’t do it with the wrong motives. These two statements are mutually exclusive. He commends them for being able to discern between true and false teachers. This was important because their souls were at stake.
When it talks about forgetting their first love, I would think this is referring to a natural drifting from their salvation experience. I think you’re reading too much into it if you are weighing their motives in this particular case.
Chris L - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Practice, practice, practice is the key (as opposed to cold debate about issues that turn you into a scholar). And it is in practice that I see most of us, including me, are lacking.
I think a great scripture that talks about this balance is in James 1: “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and the widows AND to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”
Doing one without the other leads down a very slippery slope, just as compromising truth for unity can as well.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Um, T.J. No Jesus didn’t pull the whip out on the preachers in the pulpits. He pulled it out on the money changers. They weren’t preaching.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:41 am
I am going out on a limb and say that the church as a whole today is much more worldly than Christ desires. Sacrifice? Cross bearing? Humility? Light or salt?
The journey continues…slowly.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:53 am
I’m honestly a little bit flabbergasted here. When you look at the culture Paul was in, and what he was dealing with and you come up with “OH NO! RATED R MOVIES AND ROCK CONCERTS!!!”. See, the problem is that people who advocate the type of thinking you’re advocating have to use general admonitions from Paul, because when Paul starts listing off sins to avoid its not things like movies and concerts. Its things like slander, sexual immorality, greed, and deceit. They had dramas (many worse than what ends up on the big screen), they had concerts, and somehow none of the epistles address them. Why might that be?
Paul, “my” fun isn’t “my” fun. It is part of the blessings that God has given me, to be enjoyed now. Just as it was given to some within the church to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The arguments you’re making are probably the exact same as the ones being made by the anti-meat segment of the church. Sitting up there pretending you received down from God on high himself that movies and concerts are forbidden. Kinda reminds me of 1 Timothy 4.1-4
August 28th, 2007 at 9:00 am
wake up Body of CHrist in America. We have pastors trying to give us a 3 point sermon from SHREK, SPIDEY, and all the other blockbusters that Hollywood rolls out. Why not PREACH THE GOSPEL instead of trying to make DEPRAVED CULTURAL ROT “spiritual”. Come ON!!! We’re calling you on it….Steve gets on stage with his Def Lep shirt on…ohhhhh…..I’m impressed….Gary Lamb raves on his seats he has scored to the concert…Ohhh…I’m impressed….numbers, numbers folks…people are coming to Jesus…..ARE THEY REALLY…..when I came to Jesus I laid Def Leppard, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Guns n-Roses, Quiet Riot, Ratt, Poison, Metallica, AC/DC, Van Halen….ETC ETC….
DOWN……Laid it down and got it out of my SYSTEM…and I picked UP MY CROSS……and started carrying it on a narrow road……I used to be a Top 40 jockette….so I KNOW about the power of music (and sexual innuendo) guys……you don’t keep listening to this stuff and PLEASE JESUS….
I was rolling down the road after coming to Jesus “Riding the Storm Out” with REO Speedwagon…changing the words , of course to praise Jesus…cause I needed that ROCK BEAT,…….The Holy SPirit whispered……that does not glorify me…..what?…I’;m changing the words Lord…..
I can still hear the other words behind it……HUMBLED….>SMACKED DOWN……BY THE LORD….AND HE WAS RIGHT…..Big gulp…….I repented and turned the music off….I only listen to music that edifies God and my spirit now….lame? boring? no way? I’m in the secret place…getting your prayers answered? YOU WILL when you lay down YOU……and what YOU want and lift up Jesus ALONE!!
August 28th, 2007 at 9:04 am
TJ is the best parody poster ever.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Tim Reed: when you refer to the anti-meat segment of the church, are you also including Jesus here? Take a look at Rev 2:14 & 20… Twice Christ condemns those who tolerate this practice. Do you think He was willing to overlook this as an attempt to win the idol worshippers?
BTW, anti-meat and meat offered to idols are 2 different things. I have no problem with meat, I have no problem with movies or concerts, or vacations or fishing… Not at all. I am a sinful man, just as you are, and so to feed the flesh on movies or concerts that do nothing to profit (but actually hinder) me in my walk with God is not wise. Do I slip sometimes? of course - we all do. The difference is in the promotion of ungodliness as though God approves of it and endorses it. Light for dark, dark for light.
The epistles also didn’t talk about heroine or cocaine or crack. Do you really need a scripture verse on every point to tell you when you are going contrary to the Lord or can you deduce from scripture that certain things might not be pleasing to Him?
Stop playing games: AC/DC or Guns’n'Roses or JayZ are unprofitable. Period. A pastor should go to lengths to ensure that what he promotes is not this type of garbage as being acceptable and normal.
These aren’t laws, but principles laid down in the word of God.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:10 am
“Motive” was the wrong term to use. Agreed.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:18 am
LOL..I’m speaking from REAL LIFE , man….no parody intended….I was on the highway to hell and AC/DC in my life was helping to lead the charge….so to hear it in the house of God…BLOWS MY MIND……..I mean if this isn’t the death knell on the church in America I don’t know what is……..before you know it Jesus will be cast aside and it will be one big rock fest lust filled orgy with the “illumination” coming from lucifer….HE IS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT YOU KNOW!!……
You can not be in bed with the world…..you can’t…you can try to justify WHY YOU WANT TO BE IN BED WITH THE WORLD AND HOW YOU ARE GETTING PEOPLE “SAVED” but the bottom line is Jesus said….my sheep know my voice…you CAN NOT HEAR HIS VOICE when your skull is being filled with the movies and music of the WORLD
August 28th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Paul,
Seriously, your arguments don’t seem well thought through, and you don’t seem to be all that familiar with the passages I was alluding to.
Because they didn’t have those things. They did have alcohol though, which the scriptures talk about quite frequently, because it was being abused. They also had dramas and concerts, neither are directly addressed.
Well then I guess we have a problem, since Paul didn’t have a problem with those who were eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor 8 (except where ti caused a problem for other brothers). So which do you choose? Jesus or Paul? Of course, there is a third option, that’s that your scriptural interpretation needs a little work.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:31 am
TJ, you should write for the Onion on the religion beat. You’re killing me with this.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Dealing with Revelation 2:
The Nicolaitans were not condemned for eating meat sacrificed to idols - they were condemned for pretending to worship the idol to avoid persecution. From the time of Nero through the reign of Domitian, anyone who wanted to buy or sell items in the agora of Ephesus, Smyrna and elsewhere had to first burn incense to Caesar and accept his mark on themselves (to buy) or the goods (to sell). The same way, if you wanted fire for your home, you had to worship Hestia (the goddess of hearth and home) to receive hot coals that you could take home to re-start your file. The Nicolaitans said “we know those gods aren’t real, so we’ll just go through the motions to avoid persecution.” Here’s part of a series on the 7 cities that goes into more detail.
TJ - I don’t know where to start, since you seem to be closer to Fred Phelps than the Word right now. Probably one place would just be to put Jesus’ turning tables in the Temple into proper perspective, and to note that no building is a “house of God” - He changed addresses on Pentecost 33 A.D.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:40 am
The principle of separation is absolute. The particulars of separation are sometimes subjective. All things are lawful but all things are not expedient.
The believer that doesn’t listen to Guns and Roses should not be prideful about it, the believer that does listen to them should not discount the fact that it may be negatively affecting his spiritual life.
I would never play any of that at a Sunday Christian gathering which by definition is for believers and is open to unbelievers. I do not question their motives or heart, but I am not in agreement with their methods.
TJ - I believe I agree with much of what you are trying to say only I’ll have mine without caffeine. (a little humor)
August 28th, 2007 at 9:41 am
I guess you’re right Tim… What was I thinking? My interpretation is all wrong. Take Rev 2:20:
“Notwithstanding, I have a few things against you [Thyatira], because you allow that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things SACRIFICED UNTO IDOLS.”
How silly of me to actually think he was condemning this action in any way.
In terms of concerts and plays, how many times did you read in the book of Acts that all the saints gathered in the Hippodrome for a Greek play full of fornication, homosexuality, violence and so on? Oh wait - as far as I know, the only time the saints partook of the games was when they were the ones actually being slaughtered in the arenas.
Takes me back to my initial point. Masses of people are being led astray by people masquerading as true pastors. Again, find me an epistle where Paul, Peter, James, John or Jude were not trying to correct these intrusions.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:44 am
So, Paul, who’s side are you taking? Paul or Jesus? If your interpretation is correct you have to choose.
Oh, and by the way, you did quote Ephesians earlier, which was written by, Paul. So who’s wrong, Paul or Jesus?
August 28th, 2007 at 9:52 am
I’m still waiting to hear how
Dan Kimball, Perry Noble, Rob Bell, Brian McClaren, Rick Warren, etc… equate to Jezebel? Sorry Paul you lost me at Fornication and Eating things sacrificed to Idols.
T.J. Again I ask did you hear the sermon that Perry preached? Or are you railing against the song (not the lyrics) being played in church? Do you even know what Perry is alluding to with the theme of “Illuminate”? Please refrain from another tirade about worldly pastors and help me understand what you find unbiblical about the series.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:57 am
“and to eat things SACRIFICED UNTO IDOLS.â€
chris - that translates today to dinner on the grounds.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Didn’t the church leaders in Acts 15 also mention meat offered to idols as well (v 29)? I think the point is quite clear, but since my interpretations are so off-base, perhaps you can shed some light for me here Tim.
We need to stop looking for loopholes to cater to the flesh, entertain us and lead us away from Christ, and revert back to the simplicity that is in Him which entails the balance of love and sanctification/separation as outlined in James 1.
It’s not complicated. It becomes complicated only when you start looking to please men, cater to the fleshly desires of people, entertainment and compromise.
As a person who has also been a longer-term missionary in the bush in Africa (here’s a couple snapshots: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrington/sets/72157594225796394/) I know from experience that compromising with culture in an effort to win people over doesn’t work.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:02 am
Answer the question Paul. Are you siding with Paul or Jesus? If your interpretation is correct then only one of them can be right.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:03 am
Sorry chris - I was responding to Tim Reed’s comments at 8:53 am. He tried to accuse me of being part of the “anti-meat” segment.
To quote him: “Paul, “my†fun isn’t “my†fun. It is part of the blessings that God has given me, to be enjoyed now. Just as it was given to some within the church to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The arguments you’re making are probably the exact same as the ones being made by the anti-meat segment of the church.”
August 28th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Without doubt, eating meat sacrificed to idols is wrong. Though at this point, I think we’re way off the base of this initial post.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:09 am
So you think the Apostle Paul was wrong then?
If so quit quoting his letters, and referring to the decisions he makes in Acts.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:10 am
You both are correct. There are some cultural elements that can be used in missions to break down some barriors. There are some cultural things that would compromise our spiritual walk or public witness.
I believe that having a beer in public would compromise my personal witness (I don’t drink in private either and am very proud of that - ha).
But if I were in Germany attempting to witness to the lost and was served a beer at the table with lost friends I may drink some.
So there is some subjectivity personally. We must be careful to present our opinion with conviction while being careful not to question other’s heart.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Tim, I was hoping you would shed some light on this for me - before I proceed and rip out Romans to Hebrews as you’ve suggested.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Paul I don’t mean to be hitting you from another angle because it seems Tim and you are in debate but could you help me out; you said
Did you not learn the language of the culture? Did you not learn their customs so as not to offend? I see both of those as compromising to win people over.
Recently God convicted me of how I dress when I lead worship at Church. As a youth pastor I tend to dress more like the students and less like an adult. Well this was a bit troubling to some of our congregation because they view Sunday as a time to “get gussied up for God”. I staunchly rail against this idea that God is concerned with what clothes I’m wearing. But one day while praying God showed me that when I lead worship the way I dress becomes a distraction to those that find it offensive. NOTHING changed about how I lead worship (pray, confession, etc…) all I did was to start wearing a button down shirt and lo and behold the “gussied” up crowd started saying things like “Boy I really got a lot out of your leading today” or “Your prayers seem so powerful”. I even heard one person say “Now you look presentable to lead worship”.
All that to say; sometimes compromise is a good thing. Especially if it allows people to enter into a closer understanding of what God is saying.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Paul, Chris L has already answered.
And you can keep Hebrews, we’re not sure that was Paul’s work.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Rick why do you have to be so smart? It’s really annoying in a “I wish I thought of that” sorta way.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:38 am
chris - by compromise I meant compromising godly principles in an effort to win souls. For example, I didn’t dress like a Maasai in a poor attempt to win them. But I had no problem eating the food, drinking tea, speaking the language, sitting under a tree, walking miles instead of driving, etc…
But when it came to demonic worship (through their music/chanting), female circumcision, drinking blood, I did not partake but spoke against it. Some respond - some don’t.
The issue in North America is that we are essentially dressing like the “world” (little to no modesty), listening and promoting the same music, promoting garbage (worldly entertainment) and bending over backwards to win the world by saying, “Hey, we’re just like you, just with a little religion. If you come over to our side, you barely have to make any changes!! It’s amazing!”
This is the reason for the growth: great marketing.
“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom… that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor 2:4-5)
Not many can say that today because it’s all about enticing and appealing.
I spoke to a friend on Sunday who expressed his concern that his church (about 2,000 people and growing) is getting really good at events and getting people into the service, but from his observation there is little life change. He told me that one of the pastors (who is also his mentor) told him that if persecution hits “65% of the people would backslide overnight.”
August 28th, 2007 at 10:51 am
chris said - “Rick why do you have to be so smart?”
In that I am a Calvinist. It is God’s will!
Seriously, I appreciate that brother and any intellect I may or may not have I say with Paul:
Those that seemed somewhat in conference added nothing to me.
I take that to mean God isn’t impressed with anything but broken humility, and that is something to be pursued!
August 28th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Paul,
Just a little bit on Thyatira, and the difference between this city and some of the larger Roman cities: In Rome, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum and other large cities, most of the meat in the marketplaces had been sacrificed to Caesar or another idol upon butchering, and then taken to different places in the agora for sale. There was no way to determine if your meat had been sacrificed to an idol or not. Additionally, the sellers had already paid homage to the god the meat was sacrificed to (if it had been done so), and (until the time of Nero) you could purchase the meat without paying homage to Caesar.
In Thyatira and some similar cities, meat would come directly from guilds which worshipped specific gods and sacrificed meat to them - so if you purchased meat from a particular guild, you knew it honored a particular god, and you paid patronage to that god to get the meat.
So, the admonition against eating meat sacrificed to idols would likely imply that 1) you paid homage to that god; and/or 2) you knowingly gave credit to that god for providing the meat.
Gotta run, but I may be back late tonight…
August 28th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Personally, I don’t think that I Corinthians belongs in the canon.
August 28th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I’m sorry everyone if I’m a little bit over-caffeinated. I understand Perry and others trying to win the lost. But after they are won they need to be discipled…Furtick even said something to the effect that after you’re saved here…you’re done at elevation…go get others saved……huh? JESUS SAID MAKE DISCIPLES…that takes a bit of time.. and a bit of teaching. And new babes in Christ can have zeal but it comes from the WORK God is doing in their life…..having them lay things down….clean things up….renew the mind and change old mindsets….understand the cross..the Blood….the types and shadows of the old testament pointing to Jesus in the new….it’s a process…..
But using something like AC/DC….I mean….THE WORSHIP TEAM USED A SATANIC SONG…THEY PLAYED IT……THEY WERE COMPLICIT IN HELPING SATAN PLANT ANOTHER SEED….whether the lyrics were sung or not….EVERYBODY KNEW….AC DC….and the sign of the goat ALWAYS GOES WITH THAT BAND
I do not need to show my sons Hustler mag to explain steering clear of porn….(or pete the porno puppet for that matter!!) I can disciple them without giving them the gabage in their heads.
But I have to admit…when I watched and heard the hells’ bells thing …it was like that old seed of those rebellios rock days wanted to rise up again….I was shocked…haven’t listened to AC DC in YEARS….but just that opening bell toll and the music…whoa….that is the POWER OF MUSIC….and satan has used it for his glory….that is basically why I got hopping mad…I’ve been a blowtorch for Jesus now for 15 years….yet….that one guitar rip from the old days and like WOW….you got to keep the sin nature down…and it comes by replacing your “old music” with new music for the SPIRIT…
but these pastors ENCOURAGE the same spirit-vexing music…no problem they say…it’s FUN….it’s ENTERTAINMENT…..
I tell you it’s DECEPTION…and any pastor or worship team being PART OF THE DECEPTION….look out….I would fear God
The fruit of AC DC and all of the rebellios rock I listened to lead me to:
trying to make a deal with satan to worship him if I could get to a Joan jett concert….(thankfully I did not get to go….but I opened a HUGE DOOR TO THE ENEMY)
It also lead me to promiscious sex, sex with an underage teen (from my Dj-ing day.
a one night stand which lead to an abortion and coming home from work each night sobbing on my bed laying in the fetal position…
gotta get rid of the GUILT….did I run to JESUS…(NO..I was stupid)…I ran to the TAROT CARD READERS…..turn over that death card and I burst into tears telliong my abortion stroy over and over…gaze into the crystal ball and take my 20 bucks….after about 5 times of that I finally knew I was a fool….
but HEY my rebellion was far from over….finally…I had an open vison of hell at a Van Halen concert….and I GOT RADICALLY SAVED BECAUSE I REPENTED…..
not show up in church some day while hell’s bells is playing and add Jesus to my list of gods…but I REPENTED of all my sin and rebelllion…
Pery and Steve and all the others need to use the testimony of one who’s LAID IT DOWN……not encourage them TO GO TO THE SHOWS….but hey….they must be coming up close to 35 or 40…..gotta go back to the high school days to stay young….let’s GRWO UP and move FORWARD…..worship music alone…doesn’t ANYONE have the guts to say secualr music could be PART OF THE PROBLEM IN YOUR LIFE?
Brian Welch from KORN got a REVELATION!!
August 28th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
A great testimony, TJ. I also feel that sometimes in their zeal to reach people they go overboard. Pray that God can still draw people in spite of things like that, I know he can.
Thanks and blessins!
August 28th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
T.J. thank you for sharing your story. It was a blessing to hear. Praise God for his grace on your life.
In Him,
Chris
August 28th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
thanks everyone…I’ll be quiet now….LOL
August 28th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
TJ,
Two small bones to pick …
1. AC DC didn’t make you do anything, and it won’t make you do anything now.
2. Did you watch the actual video of the service at newspring, or did you just watch the deceptive video edit that’s on youtube? Believe me, there’s a difference. I’ve seen them both, and one is meant to deceitfully convince you using a “slippery slope” sentiment.
I’d encourage you to watch the entire video (or the entire series would be better) before you make a final judgement call. Certainly watching a biased video, edited for a specific purpose, would make you feel the way you do. I don’t blame you.
August 28th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
nate,
I agree I’ve seen them both and one (Youtube) is very far from the truth.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
nate you’re wrong….Led Zeppelin “Whole lotta love ” led me to having sex on my apartment floor with a guy who never WAS gonna marry me!!! That is why when I had the vision of hell at Van Halen……I’m telling you my EARS WERE OPENED…Keith Green sang of the scales coming off his eyes…well my EARS were opened to the rock rebellious music I had shoved down into my brain…I can rock out whole hog now with Third Day ,…..and when I sing….I’m SAVED…(by the band)….I MEAN IT……
but you know….right after I repented after the VH show…I had a 25 dollar concert tix for Aerosmith….Dude Looks like a Lady Tour…..and I tore that thing up……NOBODY does that unless they have TURNED AROUND (repented) and gone a different way…..was it hard to tear up…..for about a minute….when God dealt with me so SEVERELY at VH..it was..I’m gonna walk a new road or I’m gonna end up in hell at the hands of satan….I surrender to Christ…and part of that surrender was my secular rock music “gods’.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
no I have not seen the whole sermon just the you tube thing…but the MAIN POINT for me is AC/DC Hell’s Bell’s in the HOUSE OF THE LORD….
it’s like a pig in the Holy of Holies…..you can make your point about HELL….without having to use the satanic music of AC/DC ….
what’’s next….strippers in the house to make the point about “taking off the old man”……come on…..God’s word can be preached and can STAND ALONE….
I don’t want to hear “but this is a media generation…blah…blah…” that’s the problem….they TUNE OUT from OVERLOAD….so you gotta do bigger and better…How long can Perry keep it up…a motorcycle on stage…some Garth Brooks crooner about his whiskey drinking firends…Ac/Dc hell’s bells….I’m saying at this rate the stripper is not far off….
and BTW……Randy and Paula White brought in a porn guy.,….INTO THEIR PULPIT down at CHurch without walls in Tampa and now their marriage and minsitry is blow to bits ala…the PTL scandal……..our pulpits will REAP what is sown into them and out into the sheep…count on it!!
August 28th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Is playing AC/DC in church (which is so ludicrously stupid I can’t believe we’re even debating it) the biggest problem with Perry Noble?
I love to rock. But AC/DC? I like their sound, hate their lyrics (so I never bought any of their albums), and I’m not an anti-rock music caped crusader, but I’m sorry — there’s no way to justify AC/DC’s “Hells Bells” in a church service.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
T.J. Again thanks for your story. I am beginning to see your point. And it makes sense.
But Perry deciding that playing Hells bells was the method he was going to use to convey his message was in poor taste does that qualify him for the “apostate of the month award”? Or is it possible to say his message was accurate but his method was plainly a bad decision?
August 28th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Man I wish I would have been an english major in college!
August 28th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Would it not be pleasant to see some brethren stretch us in the area of methodology while others provide some loving moorings and together we reach the lost? I mean some churches use some outrageous methods and bring in lost people while others sit and redigest the same doctrinal food continually and do not notice their light remains under a church shaped bushel.
I look at the AC/DC thing and I don’t approve but then I also don’t approve at my own diminutive effort to reach lost people. So for me only to express outrage without expressing the same outrage personally is abject hypocrisy.
That’s like watching a person feed ice cream to a starving child and criticizing him for the unhealthy food but not noticing that I haven’t made an effort to go feed the child some nutritional food THAT I CLAIM TO HAVE. Rank hypocrisy.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
robbymac,
not to accuse you or anything, but your last post is indicative that you did not watch the service you criticized. The youtube video would like you to believe that newspring got up and played the whole song. Like the sound, but hate the lyrics? Then you would have loved to watch the service online, because the music was played without the lyrics (and incidentally, Gene Simmons and his bloody mouth were nowhere to be found).
But you’d never know that from the deceptive video on youtube.
Again, I’m not trying to criticize you, just correct some misconceptions people may have about the video from newspring by watching the youtube video.
Rick,
your last comment was so perfectly spot on, I simply can no AMEN it enough!
chris,
I’m glad I’m not the only one who saw the difference.
August 29th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Chris, I think Perry’s heart is in the right place but we have to take a hard look at the church in America…..we want to get people saved..right….saved from WHAT? sin….but not too many preach on it….the highway to hell…we’re all on it apart from Christ. Can’t we preach it without having coffins in the pulpit? Can’t we look LESS LIKE THE WORLD? It seems like we don’t. In gasping and desperately trying to reach them it seems like we wanna be liked. Hey we’re cool….we’re like you, got lots of tatts. come to Jesus….hey we drink too….slam back some brewskies in church and open the Bible….come to Jesus…..hey we’re cool, our Pastor rocks out to Def leppard….why we even gave away tix to the reunion tour in youth group…..come to Jesus….you want church to be exciting…we got POWER ROCK MUSIC like AC/DC to rock your world…..is it bait and switch….or is it just …COME TO OUR CHURCH COZ WE WILL DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING YOU WANT…we’ll take surveys to”see what you want in a church”…we’ll plop MOVIES AND MORE MOVIES into “kids minsitry” so your rug rats won’t interfere with the “big adult ministry” we’re doing…they’ll just sit there and watch The Incredibles, Shrek and whatever else is lying around in the kids minsitry room. Come to Jesus……we have lots and lots of coffe to tank up on…don’t worry about “preparing your heart for the service”….come on in with a full plate from Ponderosa, wedge on in the theatre seating…fill your gut and watch the show….I mean….”hear the word of the Lord preached….”
THE LORD? Where is the LORD JESUS in any and all of this? When the “worship music” begins is anyone’s MIND AND HEART EVEN ON THE LORD JESUS? I mean…He must weep , service after service…..Chuck Smith had it right with the old hippies who got saved in the Jesus movement….teach the bible….VERSE AFTER VERSE…line after line…precept upon precept….are ya teaching your “new converts” the 10 commandments? That’s a good place for starters….they’ve been off the walls in the school house FOR YEARS……they’re mocked and ridiculed..start with a 10 weeks series on the 10 commandments….do the “series wrap up” with the final two Jesus mentioned and there ya go….some discipleship 101…..
but THAT MEANS…the PASTORS….THE SHEPHERDS OF THE FLOCK will have to dust them off….study them….see where society has missed the mark and then fill in the reasons why America is in the state she is in. We need LESS PAXIL and more 10 commandments…..
August 30th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
uh…either the comments have closed or I’ve blown some minds…OR….the pastors are reading the 10 commandments
August 30th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
TJ - I only read eight commandments, I never liked the other two.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
TJ,
I think that the topic of music was probably far enough off topic that most folks have held commenting to avoid a complete threadjacking…
August 31st, 2007 at 2:09 am
Thanks for the heads-up, Nathan, but I’m still thinkin’ that playing AC/DC in a church service is questionable at best.
Glad to hear that Gene & his bloody tongue were nowhere to be found, but perhaps I will reveal my knowledge of these bands by saying that (A) Gene Simmons was in KISS, not AC/DC, and (B) I’m one of the few who actually think that Brian Johnson’s voice was better than Bon Scott’s.
October 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
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