Estranged Brethren
“However, because Kimball denies that God alone elects, draws to Himself whomsoever He wills, and then saves them apart from anything they do, at best he is my estranged brother fighting for the wrong side. You see, teaching otherwise robs Christ Jesus–the LORD God Almighty Himself in human flesh–of the glory that is due to Him alone. As long as He chooses to sustain me, even as an unworthy bond-slave who deserves nothing, this is what I will gladly labor for. And what is more, being among the relatively few fighting to give all glory to God and His Christ alone we are only following in the footsteps of the great Apostle Paul:” - Pastor Ken Silva
Over at CRN Brother Ken takes issue with Chris Lyons’ post. OK, a strong disagreement, and we all have been given the privilege of confronting views with which we find our own views at odds. But as usual we have a self-serving tirade that lets you know that any who espouse the free will teaching, like John Wesley, are robbing Jesus Christ of the glory that is due to Him alone. And Wesley, Moody, Tozer, Ravenhill, Keith Green, and a host of others are estranged brothers fighting for the wrong side.
And Ken concludes with predicable humility that he is among the relatively few fighting to give all glory to God and His Christ. So all the free will brethren missionaries, living in horrible conditions in Africa, or life threatening conditions in Pakistan, or poverty conditions in the Dominican Republic, or in jail in China, or hiding in North Korea, they are estranged brethren fighting for the wrong side, and are robbing Christ Jesus of His glory.
And we American bloggers, sitting in air conditioned rooms, hazarding our lives as we type, and posting little articles about who knows what, we are among the relatively few fighting to give all glory to God and His Christ.
Yea, and who is thinking more highly of themselves than they ought? You know what, I think I’ll stick with an estranged brother like John Wesley, the American blogging scene is just too dangerous!
August 27th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
hmm…
theology like that can easily turn you into Ken Silva. You’re literally creeping on the edge of hyper-calvinism if not completely jumped over. Oh no, Ken’s not a calvinist … not by a long shot /sarcasm.
So, after pursuing you, convicting you of sin, and offering you the free gift of salvation … accepting that gift (repenting, believing, calling, etc.) robs Jesus of the glory? Paul would be shocked.
August 27th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
How can you really consider someone a brother and estranged when we’re talking about the family of God? It seems either you accept someone as a brother or sister or you don’t. I guess some are just more elect than others.
August 27th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I just want to go on record as saying not all Reformed (if you’ll allow the use of the word, even Calvin didn’t like “Calinist”) thinkers are like Sl_ce and CRN.
I’m a full “5 pointer” and it drives me to humility and love for others. To be so undeserving and somehow chosen (again, if you’ll allow the word) fills me with an appreciation that makes my eyes water a little as I write this.
Honestly, I think if you run into people who act like the watchdoggies I would say they just don’t get it. At the heart of Reformed Theology is abounding Grace, and that Grace overflows into how we should treat both those who are without Christ and those who are “family”.
I really don’t like most of what I know about Rick Warren’s methodolgy, but I’m praying for the man because I believe he wants people to know Jesus. I just wish his paradigm would be more God-centered and less man-centered, and I say that knowing that I too need to daily die to myself.
To briefly dispell another myth: a lot of Reformed thinkers totally believe in World Evangelization. We’re not a “remnant” avoiding movie theatres and bowling alleys until Jesus returns, we’re going after that which Jesus has already ransomed.
All I’m trying to say is don’t paint us all in with a broad brush, and please don’t characterize a whole theological perspective with a couple of nutcases that wear the label but just don’t get it.
I’ll stand with anyone who loves the Eternal Christ and lives by His Infallible (in original form) Word. The rest is just details that need to be worked out.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:18 am
I sure hope Ken listened to the sermon he posted at the end there. He really should follow that advice.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:01 am
kp - You are a true yokefellow and the Holy Spirit comes shining through your words. And for the record, all of us here at CRNinfo have many reformed (etc.) friends and most of them are as yourself. We appreciate your visit here, please comment again.
May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering!
August 28th, 2007 at 6:02 am
I also hope Ken has read the rest of Acts 15. When you get down to verses 19 to 21 you see the Council of Jerusalem’s findings on the disagreement. It’s a pretty short list. It was things in particular new Gentile believers struggled with and that Jewish believers struggled seeing happen. It was a means of keeping the peace among all believers. Compare that short list with the long list of “thou shalt nots” coming from the ODMs that have aligned together.
Notice as well that even though Paul and Barnabas disagreed, they went together from 15:1-2 and continued to preach and talk about what God had been doing among the Gentiles until they got to Jerusalem and even stayed together until “some time later.”
Surely there was time to talk to one another during this trip and their stay in Jerusalem. From memory it would seem Mr. Silva is content to lob insults and condemnation over the wall at the estranged brethren but never take a step to engage that person one-on-one.
But I suppose when you are “among the relatively few fighting to give all glory to God and His Christ” you’re so busy protecting turf and defining correctness there’s little time for much else.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:37 am
Please join me in today in prayer and fasting (optional) to bless Ken…
Luke 6:27-28
Blessings,
iggy
August 28th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Ken,
“Hate site?” This is a perfect example of what David Aikman was describing. Ruff! Ruff!
Where’s the love, brother?
Darren
August 28th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Just to note, Iggy, I don’t consider Ken to be an enemy, though he may be described in the latter parts of the verse you quoted…
August 28th, 2007 at 9:40 am
And, just to note, I found it highly ironic that he listed this site as a “Christian hate site”, thus proving my point that “Love is hate” in the ODM lexionary…
August 28th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
fwiw, there are several “emerging/missional” bloggers who are staunchly Calvinist in their theology. Ultimately, as KP says, it’s not about Calvinism at all; it’s about a paranoid & reactionary mindset that coincidentally happens to be couched in Calvinist jargon.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Mark Driscoll is about as 5 point as you can get.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
I am a six point Arminian. The first five points are refutations of Calvin’s five points and the sixth fills the vacuum with a free will. Can’t we all just get along? The answer, not everyone.
The spiritually correct question is:
Is he a believing follower of the Lord Jesus?
That is the essential portrait. Everything else is color by numbers fill in.
August 28th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Chris L,
I do not consider him my enemy either though he calls me his “nemisis”. LOL!
But he has persecuted me in verbal form and seems to see my genuine love and concern as something to mock…
Blessings,
iggy
August 28th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
kp, and others,
I didn’t mean to paint you all in the same corner. I have a pastor friend who holds to the same determinist theology you do.
My problem is specifically with the USE of said theology as an excuse to be public spectacles of fruit inspection. What is so disappointing is that people of your theological persuasion aren’t more like yourself insomuch as you are very careful with how your beliefs translate into practical Christianity.
If you happen to be of Calvinistic theology, it can be very easy to fall off the ledge of hyper-calvinism. One can very quickly take the belief that God alone elects, draws, regenerates, etc., and use that knowledge as a platform to criticize methods that are not anti-biblica, just anti-calvinistic.
That’s all I’m saying.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:52 am
This just in by divine revelation:
Calvin declares from his mansion in paradise: “I didn’t say ‘5 point calvinist’ I said ‘5 pints of guiness’ ”
Ken Said:
And now for my favorite true quote from Calvin:
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowelsâ€
Which by the way a Reformed supply company has printed on toilet paper.