Serving Christian Dirt
We have discussed how and to what extent should a leader be restored when he or she has been caught in moral failure. But all through the discussion I continued to have an overall question about the entire way in which some blogs handle the sins of others.
Why does SOL and some other blogs link to secular newspapers as they report moral failures of a youth pastor and others? Isn’t it just sensationalism akin to the National Enquire? Even if they argued that these were warning examples for all of us, why would it be necessary to provide names and places, why not just the scenario itself? How can people possibly adhere to Phil.4:8 and think on good things when they are absolutely bombarded with gossip and dirt about other people? We all know about moral failures, they happen in churches in all of our communities and they are tragic, but why do we need to be informed about moral failures that happen in churches in Anywhere, USA?
Is there not a wide difference between a Scriptural teaching about moral purity and a blog peep show into the sins of strangers? I find it interesting that Paul did not share the issue of moral failure in the Corinthian church in his epistles to other churches, but it was dealt within the church where it occurred. It is a disgusting display of spreading filth about specific people and it encourages everyone to have the “I’m glad I’m not like that publican” attitude. Isn’t that EXACTLY what Jesus was trying to teach us NOT to do?
You can teach Biblical warnings without providing a smorgasbord of the sins of others, many times gleaned from the secular press and posted with a self righteous effervescence that draws the hungry sharks. And with the comments on those type of posts outnumbering the comments on devotional posts 10 to 1 at least, we have proof that some blogs have created a kind of “Christian” gossip newsletter that rivals the Hollywood rags. And in two years of seeing these posts, I cannot remember once reading for everyone to pray for these fallen brothers or sister.
Moral failures in local churches are not exclusively a symptom of liberal or modern churches, they occur in the most orthodox of local gatherings. I continue to wonder, what spirit could possibly lead a believer to read a secular report about a brother’s sins and be energized to reprint it and add to the chastening and misery that he, his family, and the entire church is painfully going through? The personal dirt that is served on these sites is void of any semblance of the redemption that appears once in a while in the reprinted hymn words and devotional writings of various authors. When Haggard fell he was systematically dismembered on Christian sites, complete with some of the shocking details, and with comment sections that mirrored wolves gathered around the carcass of a fresh kill. Unseemly, unchristian, and a sad misrepresentation of the grace and mercy that defined our Savior’s earthly ministry.
Sorry, I was affected by that self righteous pile on.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:49 am
Henry,
I updated your categorization to remove “Uncategorized”, and to add “Schadenfreude“, which is “Pleasure taken from someone else’s misfortune”. That is exactly what I see at play here. The real theme of these postings is an insinuation that it was the ideological impurity which caused their failing, and not just sin. One need not look far beyond Tammy Fae Mesner or Ted Haggard to see this…
August 24th, 2007 at 10:06 am
If it’s published in the news then it is read and/or seen by a large section of the general public, most of them probably unbelievers.
The setting up of these people as super-apostles comes directly from ideological/theological error. Are you saying that
this is not a contributing factor?
Anyway I thought we are all free to what as we “will”
August 24th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Chris P., I struggle to believe you actually read my article. We are free to do what we will, good and bad.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Rick, brother, apparently you’re missing all the naming that the apostles did in their letters. And the naming of these specifically named peoples sins as well.
Example: “…for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.” 2 Tim 4:10. Thats just one of many. Would we call Paul obsessed with Gossip, or a ‘mean old watchdog’? Wasn’t Paul obsessed with sin and it’s consequence? Romans Chps. 3-8? How many other chapters did he write on sin and the judgement thereof? Scripture is replete with discussing sin, exposing it, and using the SPECIFIC examples of others to teach us. Should we not do what even our Lord has done? Did he not confront the false religiosity of His day and expose it? And moreso, for all to see/hear?
Not only that, but you find people’s names and personal sins listed in Acts, the Gospels, and ALL throughout the Old Testament. Why? Because of what you’ve already stated, a warning. But also for an exhortation, and a sign of the times.
You also said ‘how can people adhere to Phil4:8′? That verse does not exclude that we will have to put up with, be warned by, and expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. In fact, this would be utterly contradictory to Scripture and everyday life in this world.
“Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Eph.5:11 Guess we’d have to dwell on them huh? And report them too?
YOU know there are more Scriptures, I’m not here to educate you.
Brother, your post is biased and one-sided. You have not taken in to account the FULL council of God on the matter. And you know better, I’m sure you do. I don’t expect you to admit you are wrong in your analysis of the situation. The thing I’ve noticed in many Christian blogs, even the ‘watchdog’ ones (and yes, I like them, they keep me apprised), is no one ever admits they are wrong. But if everyone says everyone else is wrong, well then clearly someone is wrong, or everyone is, and someone needs to admit it. And it needs to be based on objective absolute truth, and that comes from Scripture.
I say this in love, because I think ignoring the Scriptures I listed will only lead to a one sided position, with a lack of objectivity. You fight them, they fight you, it’s actually heartbreaking, and you all think you’re right. Well someone’s not. So let’s figure it out shall we?
In Christ’s Love,
Joe
August 24th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Whine whine whine.
I guess Paul wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit when he pointed out error.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
“Sex sells.”
“If it bleeds, it leads.”
We should never be surprised that this kind of tabloid sensationalism actually works. SOL and its kindred “ministries” are just the extreme edge of fundamentalism’s fringe, using the same tactics as the National Enquirer, to reach the same fleshly appetites of the finger-pointing self-righteous. Even if they DIDN’T use secular sources, they’re still guilty of the same thing.
The only thing surprising about the Schadenfreude approach that miss-named “discernment” ministries attract and feed, is that people are surprised at the lengths they’ll go to.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Chris L Are you insinuating that Tammy Faye and Ted Haggard were examples of good/pure ideology (or pure doctrine/good teaching)? That’s choice!
August 24th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
PJ,
By no means am I making any comment about Tammy Faye and/or Ted Haggard’s theology - I am saying that God causes the sun to rise and rain to fall on both the good and the evil, and that this sort of ‘pile on’ is little short of an attempt to try and connect the theology of those with whom SoL/C?N disagrees to their sins (or earthly consequences of their sins).
August 24th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Joe,
You wrote:
I would submit these as but a few examples here:
* See the author’s comment (currently 3rd from the bottom) here.
* See my comment here.
I can do some more searching and find several more examples from this site, because we DO try to admit when we’re wrong.
The point Rick was making, which is a valid one, is not that we should no recognize sin, but that we should not take joy/glee/validation from its consequences applied to others…
August 24th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
All you guys pointing out that sins are publicly named in the scriptures are missing a couple of points.
1. Especially in the NT, these were written either to the individuals in question, or to their leaders. Generally for the purposes of correction and/or how to proceed in light of this. None of the watchdoggies are incorporating these elements into their actions.
2. The writers of the scriptures who publicly proclaimed sin, actually knew the individuals involved, and usually had authority over them in the local church. The watchdoggies, on the other hand, have none of that.
3. Paul, especially, when he wrote about sins publicly intended his pointing out of sins to be both of an ultimate benefit to the individual named, and the immediate benefit of the church in question. I don’t see any of that in the watchdoggies’ posts about sin.
4. The watchdoggies’ only motivation in pointing out these transgressions is to show everyone that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. Their point is the same everytime: that these sins are a direct result from believing/doing things differently from the watchdoggies. They might as well be praying “thank you Lord for making me different from those sinners over there”. Its sickening.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Yes, let’s all keep apprised on everyone’s sin. Let’s get a database and ask all churches to immediately report any moral failures so we can be fully apprised. All the instances in the Scriptures that GOD GAVE are not sufficient for a teaching and warning example, we need more. How many more is enough? We’ll let you know.
We criticize the secular news for only reporting the negative and we do it also. How many youth pastors have remained pure and faithful? Who cares, the moral failures get the ink. I am having a difficult time believing that our motive for keeping apprised is to keep our prayer journals current.
There, the emperor has no clothes.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Okay I agree with you Chris. No rejoicing in sin. But I don’t necessarily think SOL or CRN does that. They seem pretty upset about the sins they have to report on. Emphatically upset.
And I can see this site has admitted fault before, but I didn’t say it didn’t. But I’ll take the hit for insinuating that though. I really don’t expect Rick to admit they are wrong on this post right here though. Mostly because he seems very fired up about this, and to admit improper analysis would be akin to saying SOL and CRN is justified in what they are doing, and that would defeat the entire purpose of this blog. I don’t think I’m influencial enough to cause a change like that. God is, I’m not. I think my points still need to be addressed, or proven false by exegesis. And I’m not saying slice or CRN is always right either. We’re all wrong many times in our lives. But we have to look at things objectively, from Scripture, standing outside of the situation, so that we’re not emotionally so attatched that we cannot discern properly. Let’s not set up idols in our hearts to our own biases.
But yep, I do agree with you Chris. However, Rick’s statements were much stronger, and so I do not agree with him. He implied something very different than your analysis of his post. In fact, the entire purpose of this blog is to do exactly the same thing SOL does, except this site does it right back to them! How dare any of these sites have a ‘hypocrisy’ section? You’re ALL hypocrites. Me included. Even having a part of your site labled that is just making us more hypocritical. Isn’t that the epitomy of hypocrisy? It seems almost all the posts I can read have that undertone/implication (not necessarily directly stated, admittedly). “They’re not Christians, we’re right”. And this is on both this site and the ‘other sides’ site. This is the impression I get, and if I get that impression, someone else must be too. It doesn’t matter your intentions, it’s how people perceive how and what you said.
What was the undertone of Rick’s post up there? Can anyone tell me?
Everyone take a breath, step back, and take a look at what is going on out there, objectively. Get rid of your emotions for a minute. Seriously consider what we’re saying.
But Chris, I have to ask, why didn’t you address the actual bulk and thrust of my post? Why did you just point out my ignorance to your site’s ability to admit wrongdoing (I admit this is my own ignorance, but I can’t go through all posts when there’s a post to address right here, and it needs it right now, and besides, I never said YOU guys don’t admit you’re wrong, but I know CRN and SOL barely ever do.)
Please address what I brought up. I’d like to hear other’s thoughts. That helps with cross-checking for error.
Just so you know, I do frequent SOL and CRN, but now I’ll be visiting the counter blogs much more often as well, I have to be honest with my research. Since you’re all so polarized, maybe I can figure out the actual story by hearing both sides more prominently. You know what they say “There’s his side, the other side, and the true side.”
But I personally think all of this blogsphere is in a ridiculous state right now. That’s not to discount WHAT is being reported though. The HOW is becoming a huge problem though.
Spirit and TRUTH guys, Spirit and TRUTH.
Where do we get Truth from?
Joe
August 24th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
I’ve been reading the watchdoggie blogs and here’s my thoughts:
1. CR?N has never admitted it’s wrong, unlike this site
2. CR?N and Slice have, in my opinion, celebrated the fall of people they don’t agree with. I think they enjoyed other peoples sins.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Tim you said…
“Paul, especially, when he wrote about sins publicly intended his pointing out of sins to be both of an ultimate benefit to the individual named, and the immediate benefit of the church in question. I don’t see any of that in the watchdoggies’ posts about sin. ”
YOU don’t see it? Okay, well, I do. I’m sure others do. I’ve seen many posts calling pastors to repentance, and they say they send emails, and they communicate, in a loving manner, to try and correct these people of their errors. Can’t ANY Christian can correct ANY other Christian, when necessary? Of course we can! We’re commanded to! I don’t have to be in a church’s chain of command in order to rebuke a fallen brother of that church, do I? What you’re saying just doesn’t make sense here brother. “The watchdoggies’ only motivation in pointing out these transgressions is to show everyone that they’re right and everyone else is wrong.” Prove it. Surely you know their hearts as well as God does? I know you don’t. And I know they would never say “anyone who believes one ioda differently than us is not a Christian”. Never.
Aren’t you doing the same thing you just accused them of? Is not the languge of your post suggestive of “I’m right they’re wrong”?
And Rick, I’m sad you responded so sarcastically, I was trying to be nice and loving, I do not appreciate your lack recipricocity. Maybe you don’t think they pray for those they report on, but that doesn’t mean that SOME OF US don’t. And do you listen to their prayers? Rick, you sound just like they do! Don’t you see it in your language? Look in to your heart brother.
Rick you’re right, Scripture is sufficient, but it’s also about FOLLOWING the example set before us. If Jesus, Paul, and Peter, etc, all exposed falsehood and deeds of darkness, shouldn’t we follow that? I KNOW we MUST, IF we claim to live in Him, walk as Jesus did. And follow Pauls example as he follows Christ. What do you make of Eph.5:11? I didn’t see anyone use Scripture to refute what I said. Please do, because you guys obviously think I am wrong, and I MUST be corrected if that is the case. And I’m being serious, I’m not being sacrastic at all. But you haven’t said anything that I can’t come right back and refute.
I do agree with you Rick on one of the things you said. Why all the reporting about the bad (your site included, as you report on the bad doings of these ‘watch doggies’), and a total imbalance in the ratio of the good things? There are so many praiseworthy things being done, right along side of the bad, so I think we need to balance more. So I can agree with that, definitely.
Okay Okay, believe it or not I’m at work, and I’m totally misusing this government computer! hahaha. I have to go. bye guys!
Love, Joe
August 24th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
interesting points…
Yes Paul does call some by name… those that opposed him and the teachings of Jesus Christ…
Yet, if I recall the man who was sleeping with his father’s wife in Corinth… never once does Paul say his name…
So, I see that there is a point that calling out by name is right one… and a point that sometimes it is better to not call out by name for the sake of restoration of the one who has fallen into sin.
I mean, I would hate to be called out by name about my sin… though I have been rebuke many times by people that love me and have confessed my weakness and have been restored.
I do think that a leader that has been rebuked privately should be called out if they continue to sin… yet, as the bible instructs with gentleness…
Galatians 6: 1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
Interestingly to me it seems that some that deem themselves “spiritual” care little for being gentle.
Blessings,
iggy
August 24th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Joe C,
I’ve just re-read the front page of SoL, and I don’t see any concern for the health of these churches, or the individuals involved in the sin. Not a single line. In stead I see things like this:
Hmmm… doesn’t seem to be any concern for church or sinner there.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Iggy, sometimes you can’t be gentle, sometimes you need to REBUKE. Otherwise the word rebuke, meaning sharp correction, wouldn’t be used. You know what I mean?
Also, it depends on if your meaning of ‘gentle’ is the same as the meaning Paul intended. I’m sure he didn’t mean ‘beat around the bush’ = gentle. And slice obviously doesn’t beat around anything, except of course the sins (and is anyone refuting that what gets reported is sin? Just curious). And unfortunately the sinners too. However, to say they don’t care for these people is a false generalization, and to say they love other people’s sins, is ridiculous at best. They’re grieved too, can’t you see it?
I don’t know, maybe we can’t, because if we start admitting that we’re all flesh and blood human beings again, then maybe we’ll start saying to each other ‘you’re right about this, I’m wrong, sorry’ ‘oh hey it’s okay, you’re right about this, i’m wrong, sorry’, instead of all this polarizing going on. I think moreso on SOL and CRN than anyone else, but still, are we all not at fault?
Joe
August 24th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
The prayer thing - it only applies to those to whom it applies. God knows, I don’t. If I discovered that many people copy down the names of people like Haggard or the more insignificant ones and faithfully prayed for them, I would be surprised.
I usually don’t pray for them, maybe I’m in the minority or maybe were not being honest. I do know that the secular newspapers don’t report so people can pray, and I usually don’t read an exhortation for prayer on Christian blogs.
Even the imlication about the theology connection reveals an agenda whcih doesn’t seem to include the fallen brother’s restoration. Please let me know how many posts that reported someone’s sin were followed later with a praise report on their restoration. What do you think? I’m going with none. What does that seem to indicate, although only God knows the heart (the tacit disclaimer that sounds spiritual).
August 24th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
But still no one addressed my points!!!! And how do you know that they are just REPORTING the news, and they actually DO CARE and ARE CONCERNED for the sinners? Doesn’t the very fact that they have a site reporting on this stuff mean they OBVIOUSLY CARE? Shouldn’t that be a given?
Alright, you’re all pretty entrenched, so what can I bring in to this huh? I’ll pray for us all, that we can all resolve the issues we obviously have with each other. So that we can actually start objective conversations. And start actually addressing each other’s comments, instead of playing the same old record, over and over. I have to leave work now, so I won’t be checking back for a while, by which point I assume I’ll have been dismantled and destroyed several times, per usual on the comment forums lol. But that’s thinking pretty highly of myself I guess, so maybe I’ll just be ignored. It’s okay, I just wish that I could have been corrected if you guys think I’m so wrong, or maybe you agree with me and just dont want to say it? How can I even know? I’ll go to the Word instead, the Teacher will correct me if need be.
Thanks though for letting me see some new things though, bye!!!
Joe
August 24th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
“Doesn’t the very fact that they have a site reporting on this stuff mean they OBVIOUSLY CARE? Shouldn’t that be a given?”
Joe - I envy your naiveté. You seem like a sincere brother.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Well all I can see in this post and the rationality for this entire website for that matter is some people who have a chip on their shoulder and some spite towards some discernment web sites.
So if you are trying to insinuate that Discernment web sites only post articles about the failings of others because they get some kind of perverse glee out of it, your not proving yourself any better than them by this article!
This article could be a monument to hypocrisy! I mean the actual personal spite evident in this article is overwhelming! And to boot it has no Biblical Support what so ever!
Instead you are being a very unbiblical back-biter! And my friend I would fear to be in your shoes a heck of a lot more than the discernment web sites you are pointing out.
I have not found that any of the discernment web sites you mention actually enjoy or revel in having to bring to light the utter depravity in the Church today. In actual fact they all weep for what is happening. They groan in their spirit over it.
Because it is not a small minority of the western church that is going off the rails, we are in a time when the mass majority of the church and its leadership is throwing off all restraint to actually run after carnality and false doctrines.
The time we live in today will be looked back on as a major turning point for the church, where it divorced itself from being the Christians that the Bible and God asks them to be to being whatever they themselves in their depraved carnal mind chose to be, the time when they were overcome by a strong delusion.
And there are far too few people making others aware of this pivotal point in history and those like you and your website who choose to snipe and sneer at what the discernment web sites do, are just showing how deluded, blind and deaf they have become to the rotten state of Christianity in the west.
And you place yourself in a position to be overcome by that rot which you choose to defend!
You have no Biblical basis for what you do here or for your contention that the discernment web sites get some kind of glee out of what they do, other than your own skewed and spiteful personal opinion.
It is a true fact that those who tend toward the ignoring of large scale sin in the Church do so because they have a rebellious spirit, and have a desire themselves to live on the outside edge of what could be considered Christian living as opposed to staying as close as possible to how God asks us to live.
The next time you choose to vent your personal spite, take a step back compare your article to God’s Word. You will most likely find you are writing contrary to God’s ways and purposes.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Joe,
You asked me:
My apologies - I had a few minutes left on my lunch break, and when I read a comment, I often view the summation as the primary thrust of the comment (which isn’t always the case).
You asked about the naming of names and the application of Phil 4:8, also referencing Eph 5:11
)
In this particular case, C?N and SoL have no personal relationship with these men or the churches they serve. Their ‘deeds of darkness’ have been exposed well beyond the bounds of Paul’s admonition unto the ends of the earth. It should be no surprise that the secular media might do this. However, SoL/C?N have gone beyond this to try to make hay out of a theological disagreement (as referenced in their descriptions of who/what these men ‘represent’) by tying it to a man’s sin. In doing so, they are making an ad homenim attack on the ideology they have attempted to synonymize with these men, with no real care of love in doing so.
What good does it do these men or to the church (in part or in toto) to continue “expose” their sin, when it has already been exposed to those who know them personally? Who does their “exposing” serve - a) the sinner and those sinned against; or b) the “exposers” who expose nothing, but use these men’s sin for their own attempted ideological gain?
August 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
john - visiting your website immediately revealed you posted a secular, detail laden account of a pastoral couple’s divorce in Florida. You even exhort people not to get “sucked in” to the evil men and seducers you attach to them. I did not detect any weeping or groaning for them as you suggested.
It would follow that you disagree with my post.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
PJ, are you new to this site? I don’t recognize your handle.
After reading what Rick wrote, and then visiting your website…
…well.
I can’t wait until I decide I have an apostate pastor so I can send the link.
There’s a huge disconnect here, between what Rick is trying to say and then finding myself reading that statement which seems to suggest that apostate pastors are flooding the earth and there are now steps to be taken (if I have any).
What is this? A Christian pirate flag for when I deem the pastor wrong?
I, too, was perturbed by the “righteous pile-on” of Haggard et. al. that Rick mentions. And now we can do it by sending a simple URL via email. In love, of course.
The damage we do to each other is amazing…
August 24th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
John,
It is so fortunate that only God knows the hearts of men, because you certainly do not… Perhaps, though, your post is satire, in which you role-play the antagonist in Luke 18:9-14?
There is no need to broadcast “news” of other Christians moral failures beyond the local body impacted by it, but (as noted by Henry), to allow them to be restored by their communities and to set our minds on what is pure and holy.
This site exists to defend brothers in the faith from snipers aiming into the fold. Additionally, we hope these snipers will come to repentence for their continued sin, and as part of their community - the Christian blogosphere - we have that particular responsibility. We also hope to serve God in countering the toxins they spew into the church, which are far worse than the misdiagnosed ‘cancers’ the whine and cry about.
If REBUKE is needed, I see no additional need to pour it upon men and women at local churches who have fallen to sin and have received rebuke from their own churches for it. Rather, it is needed for those who see these failings as news when it is nothing more than agenda-driven gossip.
Somehow, I suspect that were the pastor in question’s name John MacArthur (or the like), we’d be hearing calls to pray for his family and his church and see none of the tone displayed toward these men…
August 24th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Ironically, one of the pastors they are celebrating getting caught in sin was not a PDL or emerging/emergent.
He was a KJV only guy.
Talk about shooting your own.
It’s really sad. Please pray for all involved.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Julie - A Christian pirate flag! I haven’t laughed that hard in weeks. You are so very funny, the wiring in your brain somehow was fried years ago. Thank you for your perspectives both seriously and the “Prairie Princess” variety!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
All of this makes me wonder if anyone has read Matthew 18. That site that Chris R put together is sinful. Jesus commands us to directly confront those who are sinning.
Somehow I think pastors across the US are better off when folks like Ingrid decide to go off and form a house church.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
The new ODM motto:
Love is hate.
War is peace.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Rick
You described Paula White and here Husband “Bishop” White as “a pastoral couple from Florida”
And in this description you insinuated as if the couple were some unknown pastoral couple in Florida, and some devious nefarious digging was done to uncover them and their failings.
And in doing so you attempt to downplay who this couple is and the overwhelming negative impact they have been having on Christianity in the western world. “This Couple” is a very high profile internationally known couple who have been debasing and insulting God’s word for years
Anyone who knows God’s word can compare their actions and words to what the Bible says their actions and words should be and can very clearly see that they are False Christians. Wolves whose only aim is to profit themselves at the expense of the sheep!
The problem today as I have said before which in your rebellion against God you choose to ignore is that the mass of western Christianity have been deceived by the likes of this “little ole innocent pastoral Couple from Florida” in to thinking that what they teach and how they act is ok, when in actual fact everything they do is in direct opposition to God’s word for how such people should teach and conduct themselves.
And under such circumstances it is not only perfectly Biblical but also Biblically expedient to provide further proof of why these people are False Christians to those who are being deceived or who may be deceived by them!
I challenge you to provide Biblical proof to the contrary!
So put up or shut up!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
John
And here I thought that separating the wheat from the tares belonged to … God
August 24th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Why is it that those who claim the Biblical high ground never actually quote scripture? All those words in your last comment and not a single scrap of scripture.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
John,
You remind me of a ‘john’ that I tried to discuss some things with last year on Tony Rose’s site, who wouldn’t continue the conversation if I didn’t first acknowledge that Catholics were bound for hell.
Are you and that john one in the same?
August 24th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Tim,
You asked:
In the case of Ken, he started out trying to do so with me and the guys from VS last year, but when we pointed out that his hermeneutical use of the scriptures chosen was laughable, he stopped and never got around it again…
August 24th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Ah well, that makes sense.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
john - I agree with your theological assessment of the Whites, I live several miles from their church. What does their divorce, itemized by the secular press, have to do with their health and wealth theology?
I slap your face with an electronic glove and challenge you to a Biblical duel. Ten verses apiece with two commentaries. Brother, they do serve decaff!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Well I guess I have really beend dispatched to the wood shed now havent I.
Sorry fella’s my skin is pretty thick when it comes to encountering apostates who rant whether Biblical Proof is provided or not to counter their false arguments.
There is a common thread among the Discernment watchblog backbiter whiner sites, they all look like MSN Teenage chat rooms.
So fire some more volleys kids, recess is almost over!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Well, at least I suppose we don’t have to worry about false humility in actually discussing Biblical issues with you, since you already know you’re right and that anything we say is wrong since we’re “apostates”…
Apparently, you ascribe to the ‘clanging cymbal’ school, as well…
August 24th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
John,
I still didn’t see any scripture from you.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Rick,
Your reply just adds more weight to what I have said previously about your article and this website.
It serves no positive purpose whatsover to Christianity.
You just want to have a personal whine. you agree about the Whites and what they are about, but you still either through personal rebellion or pure ignorance choose to overly downplay their overhwelming negative impact on Christianity that they have had and continue to have.
The reporting about their dvorce actually speaks volumes about them and their philosophy and whether you like it or not or think it is unseamly to report the news of their divorce, it needs to be put out there as these people are masters at spinning their own press to suit their own carnal and selfish goals to decieve the sheep!
According to your method we should all just let the wolves ravage the sheep and keep our mouths shut, but my friend that is very anti-Bblical.
And since you agree that what the Whites are about is against God, the Bible and Christianity, you again are acting in opposition to God because you know what they are about and choose to not only NOT warn people about them and provide proof of why they are not of God but attempt to discredit and frustrate those who do!
Again you have been challenged to provide Biblical proof to the contrary.
So again: Put up or Shut up
August 24th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Still no scripture.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Come on, guys, a Christian Pirate Flag? Doesn’t anyone have a sense of humor? That’s the greatest caricature since it disarms the attempt by some to imagine themselves as Truth Warriors and Julie labels their banner as a Christian Pirate Flag.
I could use one of those a day!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Chris,
yes you are an apostate if you choose to sit here and snipe at those who are defending God’s word. Again Rick has provided absolutely no Biblical justification for this article or what he does on this web site and neither have you.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Excuse me, what? I haven’t seen you put up a Biblical argument with which to “put up” - just lots of unsupported invective.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
john - you say:
“you agree about the Whites and what they are about, but you still either through personal rebellion or pure ignorance choose to overly downplay their overhwelming negative impact on Christianity that they have had and continue to have. ”
I have pictures of me kicking Randy White and throwing mud on Paula. Top that!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Still no scripture.
I’m amazed at how you can declare, well, pretty much everyone except yoruself as apostate without actually bringing scripture into it. Are you speaking ex cathedra like the Pope? If so I hope you get a cool hat.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Rick,
Still waiting! you see you just keep proving that you are an apostate and only interested in having a web site for your own rebellion against God whine at those you personally dont like but at the same time have absolutely no Biblical justification for it. thats called being an aposate.
Like it or not, whine about it or not, but it doesnt change the facts
Those who are not saved and whine against the church have an excuse, they dont know any better, but those who claim to be of Christ but just sit around and take personal pot shots wth no Blblical justification they are much worse and will be judged much more harshly.
And Rick you are in that position. If I was you I would be issuing some apologies and asking for some forgivness.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
john - You have crossed the boundaries of being taken seriously. Like sticking someone with the Old Maid, you have stuck me/us with the dreaded “apostate” card.
And just so you know, I don’t drink whine.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Tim,
nice try and attempting to switch around my challenge and put it back on me. if I remember right I issued the challenge for Rick to provide some Biblical Justification for his article and words of which he still has not provided.
and a person IS an apostate by their conduct, if they choose to conduct themsevles consistantly in a manner that is in direct opposition to how God’s word says they should conduct themsleves. yo dont have to be a Pope to declare that you just have to have an 8th grade understanding of God’s word.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
John,
Still no scripture from you.
Put up or shut up… well, actually it doesn’t matter because as Rick has pointed out, you’re not being taken seriously because you’ve conducted yourself in such a shameful way.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Apostate: One who has abandoned one’s religious faith
Sorry - your accusation doesn’t wash - I worship God, not men. Those “defenders” are little more than the shepherds of Ezekiel 34, those spoken to by Jesus in Matthew 23.
Instead, we love our brothers who are being unjustly attacked from within the church in addition to the attacks from without. The latter I understand, but not the former.
Much of the ODM crowd (including SoL/C?N) have made God’s word into Orwell’s 1984, in which love is hate and war is peace.
They (and you, having looked at your site) have recreated the greatest two commands into a mockery:
Love your God: Determine what it means for you to obey God, based heavily on tradition or your own social mores and - possibly - the Bible (insofar as the Ten Commandments are concerned), and then expect everyone else to “obey God†based on your definition. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate. Additionally, to love God means to know exactly how He works and does not work and to know all the ‘Christianese’ terms which define these workings, along with all the right soteriology, and to then expect everyone else to understand God exactly the way you do. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate.
Love your Neighbor: Step 1: If your ‘neighbor’ is somewhere between mistaken and apostate (see “Love your Godâ€), your first and foremost duty is to make them see the error of their ways, and if they do not, to warn everybody else that they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate, and by all means mock them and distort anything/everything that makes them mistaken or apostate in your eyes. Step 2: If they are still around after Step 1, and if they are in need, it might be a nice thing to do to help them out.
___________–
While we do not always succeed, we try to abide by the words of Peter: But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Rick,
If you cannot provide any Biblical justification to defend what you are doing here you are an apostate whiner.
I have repeatedly asked you to provide it, and I am still waiting.
You wrote the article now show how God is on your side in writing it by providing Biblical justification for it or as I said:
Put up or Shut up!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Can John be put on the moderated list until he comes up with scripture? Or learns to play nice?
August 24th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Dang, look at all that scripture from Chris L. You might try something like that John.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
John,
And how is it that Rick must defend himself or be apostate if you’ve not yet given any proof of apostasy?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Chris,
One who has abandoned one’s religious faith does not strictly mean that they come out verbally and declare they have abandonded their faith. you know the letter of words but you do not know the spirit of THE Word.
you become an apostate to God when your continued actions and words viloate how God asks us to act and to speak.
Unjustified and unBiblical Back-biting like what goes on here is a very clear sign of apostasy!
2 Timothy 2:14-16, 23-26
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
OK - for all the other people who are reading this I will provide some Scripture, of which their are legion, to give some guidance concerning my original post. It may not exonerate me from the apostate club, but I present them for your consideration without hysteria.
Gal.6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
II Cor.2:6-7 - Sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted of many. So contrarywise you ought rather to forgive him and comfort him lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with much sorrow.
I Pet.4:8 - And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves, for charity shall cover a multitude of sins.
I Cor.13 - the whole chapter
Eph.4:32 - And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you.
II Cor.2:10-11 - To whom you forgive anything, I forgive also: for if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, for yoursakes forgave I it in the person of Christ. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us, for we are not ignorant of his devices.
These are just a very few admonishments from our Heavenly Father that should temper our dealings with fallen brethren no matter what theological camp they espouse.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
OK, if you don’t see the koo koo birds flying around this guy’s stuff that’s too bad. Rick has his issues (as do we all) but this guy wouldn’t know logic if it rose up and bit his knee.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Titus 3:10
Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
I’m rejecting you bud, I promise.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
What’s that say about people like Ingrid and Ken who had such a hard time finding a church they could deal with they had to start house churches?
Seems to me that’s a condemnation of the divisiveness of the watchdoggies.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
OK - you just convicted C?N/SoL quite well with 2 Timothy, as the have come to embody the very definition of “Unjustified and unBiblical Back-biting”. Your definition of apostasy is so weak, it’s laughable, and your willingness to declare others “False Christians” only convicts yourself.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
You’ve not yet answered any of my questions about how trumpeting the failures of church members beyond their own congregations serves Christ.
We admit that we sometimes fail to distinguish between foolish disputes and ones which defend our brothers, but we are trying - with God’s help - to improve.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Rick,
Sorry friend you are showing that you have no ability exegete the Word of God.
Some passages apply to those who we know are Christians and have been overtaken in a moment of weakness. These are ones you have provided.
Other Passages apply to those who show by their continued actions and or words that they are not of God, and hence are not to be accorded the same mercy.
You cannnot apply your verses to the Whites, As they have by their continued actions shown that they are not of God. This you even said in your own words.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
john - maybe it is time for you to leave us apostates and go look for like minded brethren, we have heard your warnings and we will take them under advisement.
Wow…
August 24th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Chris,
you also do not how to exegete the Word of God becasue you have taken that verse out of context. It does not apply to those who are saved.
Paul used that verse in the context imbedded in multiple chapters of Romans to show why those who did not know God even though they were those who may have been appointed as judges over others would still be condemned to hell because they did things that were as equally as sinful. Paul went on to use this theme in Romans to lead up to why all had sin and come short of the glory of God and therefore needed Salvation through Christ
August 24th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
OK, Chris, when you asked me to be a contributor you never mentioned you had an ambush already set. Thanks brother, now my wife thinks I’m an apostate!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Chris,
you are also making the same mistake that Rick. In exegeting that passage from Matthew 7. Jesus was not speaking in regards to not judging those who had already shown themselves to not be of God. He was speaking of not judging your brother if he makes a mistake and falls.
Again the Whites have shown themselves repeatedly that they are not of God. So you cannot apply verses that relate to those who are saved who may make a mistake and fall.
I would be very interested in seeing how you would show that Whites believe that what they have continually done in the past and still do are mistakes that they need to repent of. On the contrary they believe that they are ok and can continue to do what they do and still be ok. And then to make it worse by convincing those that they shepherd that what they do is ok.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
There is a common thread among the Discernment watchblog backbiter whiner sites, they all look like MSN Teenage chat rooms.
So fire some more volleys kids, recess is almost over!
Wow… blatant, unwarranted personal attacks.
You see… when you can’t attack ideas, attack the person instead.
I think that is 1st Watchdog 3:16.
John… please justify, with scriptural references please, your personal attacks of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Rick?
An apostate?!?
That’s the funniest and most ludicrous false accusation I’ve heard in a long while!
This is a joke, right?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Sorry. My bad….
Forgot to close the bold tag on the last comment…
August 24th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Hey Robbymac - Chris L. lured me into here and then called his friend john and now look - I’m an apostate. I guess I’m backed into joining the emergent clan unless I can get absolution from you know who!
I can’t help it, when it becomes this absurd I get the laughing revival!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
No one ever answered my question way back when.
What do we do with this? Especially verses 11-14
Eph 5:
1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not become partners with them; 8for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Who’s glad that I posted a link to this at CRN? lol!!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
A parting word and I will leave your website to hopefully more postive articles that uplift the True Church body instead of sniping at it:
Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,†says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.†It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Think about this. You said that you knew that what the Whites did was not right, that what they preached was not Biblical. Read the above passage from Hebews 10. The Whites like others should have knowledge especially as rasied up international leaders how to conduct themselves in a Biblical manner. If they choose to continually conduct themselves willfully in defiance of God’s word and defend that to the sheep, then they fall under this passage.
And it then becomes more expedient to warn the millions of others who have been affected by their apostasy, than it does to show mercy to the Whites especially when the Whites are unrepentant for what they do.
Good Day.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
btw
All of this “news” is public knowledge before it is ever posted anywhere else. How is that tabloid journalism?
No one is sending out reporters and photographers to cover the story or dig previously uncovered dirt.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
“unless I can get absolution from you know who!”
John MacArthur?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
wow…
john…
we will know your a disciple of Jesus by your vigorous, vehement demands for exegesis and “putting up or shutting up”.
thanks.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
And there you have it, Chris L., sound exegesis!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
“All of this “news†is public knowledge before it is ever posted anywhere else. How is that tabloid journalism?”
Because it’s not written to inform. As you’ve stated, it’s public knowledge. What is gained by posting a linking article?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Todd - No, a little friendly dig at a friend of ours a little closer to home. Once in a while it might help for everyone to take a deep breath and laugh. I’m going to use the Christian Pirate Flag as my own personal catnip!
OK, lte’s unravel this. I posted that I thought it was overkill and unredemptive to link to a secular article chronicling a brother’s sins for which he has admitted and resigned. Fast forward - I’m an apostate. Robbymac is closer to an apostate than I am!!!
Oh, sorry.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Rick,
Sorry about that - I honestly didn’t set up the moonbat attack!
August 24th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Rick;
Here is where you went wrong:
“chronicling a brother’s sins”
You make it seem as if people like the Whites and the Weeks are brothers, and here you blind yourself to what the Word says about how to recognize if someone is trully a brother or sister. Its by their words and actions.
Someone is not a brother or Sister just because they say they are a Christian. And this is the problem that you keep missing or actually refuse to accept.
Now the Whites and Weeks may be your Brother and Sister but they are not mine as they teach a false gospel:
Galatians 1:8-9:
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
So in closing no it was not overkill or unredemptive to link to a secular article.
Which thinking about it is a bit ironic that you would get in a hackle about linking to what you call a “secular” article because you seem to have a very blurry line of what is Christian or not, who is a brother or sister or not etc. And your standard of what is and what is not, and who is and who is not are based on your personal opnions and not the Word of God.
You ignore those passages that were intended to show us very clearly the actions and words of those who are not of God but claim they are, and then you latch on to verses to justify including everyone as a brother and sister o matter what they do.
So really from your ideology nothing is secular which further proves the bankruptcy and hypocrisy of your article!
August 24th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
“you seem to have a very blurry line of what is Christian or not, who is a brother or sister or not etc. ”
I’m beginning to think you may be right.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Rick,
and thank you once again for showing very clearly what is wrong with your ideology and why your article is pretty much devoid of any Biblical Wisdom.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Rick,
You are always welcome in the emerging crowd… I mean we accept everyone and everything except whatever Johnny Mac and company make up about us…
In a way it is freeing to be an apostate… as Jesus was accused of the same thing… and the anti emerging crowd seem to have a disdain for the very people Jesus died for…
If I recall the attack come from them first… and no matter how much someone proves that what they beleive is orthodox, we are still condemned because of our association…
Mean while people like Ken Silva claim the SBC covering and call their own group backslidden and apostate… but remain untouched by their own association…
To quote Johnny Mac, “There are people who use the bible to try to prove everything”… and it seems they can justify anything also.
The true apostate is the one who does not Love God and Love others… and Rick you are far from that!
1 Jn 1:3 21-23
blessings,
iggy
August 24th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
And I was beginning to humm the refrain “And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
August 24th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Thanks, Iggy. I’m having lunch with Spencer Burke tomorrow.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
John… still waiting for the biblical justification for personal attacks…
It shouldn’t be so hard to find it, right?
August 24th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
To Iggy:
My my my how people love to twist the truth.
There is nothing so sad as the willfully blind.
The Whites and the Weeks are the Pharisees of our day. If you could actually understand the word of God you would see that.
Its an old sad worn out emergent refrain that the defenders of the faith today are equivalent to the Pharisees of Jesus day.
Emergents utilize this phrase to its fullest extent: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” What hypocrites
August 24th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Dave,
A personal attack is defined as one made against a specific individual without a factual basis. And I have not made any on this thread.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Curious: why is anyone even responding to “True Discernment” John?
Any “Christian” who ends his posts, after calling a bunch of people apostates, with “put up or shut up” isn’t to be taken seriously.
Seriously.
Put up or shut up. Ridiculous. It’s not even the language of an adult wanting to discuss anything. It’s the language of a bull in a china shop.
On another note: Chris L., I love the new “slogan”: Love is hate. War is peace. Could I have permission to use that in a little cartoon sometime?
August 24th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
OK, now I’m in the twlight zone.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Rick,
LABELING is seen as wrong. But everyone labels. Some mislabel wolves as errant sheep, pat them on their soft, fluffy heads, and unwittingly encourage them to continue in their false teaching and/or their immoral lifestyles.
How does this treating wolves as sheep occur?
1)by not knowing or ignoring scripture that helps one to know the difference.
2) by knowing that some are acting live wolves, but ignoring them because they “aren’t in my church” or “aren’t affecting my family.”
3) by continually speaking out against those who point out their errors
4) by continually speaking up for those who in some way try to defend that which can’t be biblically defended
By doing these things, some gain the favor of some men.
By doing these things some put our Christian brothers and sisters, our children and generations to come in great spiritual danger.
Scripture has harsh, harsh words about those who call themselves brothers but deny the faith by their actions and beliefs.
No we don’t always know who are errant brothers and who are wolves. But we do know that Satan will do everything he can into deceiving us into thinking that the wolves are not really wolves. Or by making us think that it’s not our business to decide. Or by making us think that the GENTLENESS and KINDNESS of the Lord is directed towards wolves, not those being ravished by the wolves.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
I guess i have to agree with Rick now, hmm first time on this thread, yes we have entered the twilight zone.
I always find it really strange when people begin to flip out on a thread because they do not like what someone has said.
Its as if they do not have a choice to ignore what is being said but are somehow possessed and are compelled to interject.
Julie there is a very easy solution to your angst. Dont Type!
August 24th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
And that’s my cue to leave.
(Let me know about the slogan, though, Chris. It gave me an idea…)
August 24th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
You know I was wondering where Amy was.
Welcome back.
Now, I have not checked the ISP but are we sure that John isn’t Ken Silva or is John’s last name Silva? He said he was leaving for greener
pasturessites but instead posted 3 or 4 more time. Too funny!