We have discussed how and to what extent should a leader be restored when he or she has been caught in moral failure. But all through the discussion I continued to have an overall question about the entire way in which some blogs handle the sins of others.
Why does SOL and some other blogs link to secular newspapers as they report moral failures of a youth pastor and others? Isn’t it just sensationalism akin to the National Enquire? Even if they argued that these were warning examples for all of us, why would it be necessary to provide names and places, why not just the scenario itself? How can people possibly adhere to Phil.4:8 and think on good things when they are absolutely bombarded with gossip and dirt about other people? We all know about moral failures, they happen in churches in all of our communities and they are tragic, but why do we need to be informed about moral failures that happen in churches in Anywhere, USA?
Is there not a wide difference between a Scriptural teaching about moral purity and a blog peep show into the sins of strangers? I find it interesting that Paul did not share the issue of moral failure in the Corinthian church in his epistles to other churches, but it was dealt within the church where it occurred. It is a disgusting display of spreading filth about specific people and it encourages everyone to have the “I’m glad I’m not like that publican” attitude. Isn’t that EXACTLY what Jesus was trying to teach us NOT to do?
You can teach Biblical warnings without providing a smorgasbord of the sins of others, many times gleaned from the secular press and posted with a self righteous effervescence that draws the hungry sharks. And with the comments on those type of posts outnumbering the comments on devotional posts 10 to 1 at least, we have proof that some blogs have created a kind of “Christian” gossip newsletter that rivals the Hollywood rags. And in two years of seeing these posts, I cannot remember once reading for everyone to pray for these fallen brothers or sister.
Moral failures in local churches are not exclusively a symptom of liberal or modern churches, they occur in the most orthodox of local gatherings. I continue to wonder, what spirit could possibly lead a believer to read a secular report about a brother’s sins and be energized to reprint it and add to the chastening and misery that he, his family, and the entire church is painfully going through? The personal dirt that is served on these sites is void of any semblance of the redemption that appears once in a while in the reprinted hymn words and devotional writings of various authors. When Haggard fell he was systematically dismembered on Christian sites, complete with some of the shocking details, and with comment sections that mirrored wolves gathered around the carcass of a fresh kill. Unseemly, unchristian, and a sad misrepresentation of the grace and mercy that defined our Savior’s earthly ministry.
Sorry, I was affected by that self righteous pile on.
176 Comments(+Add)
Henry,
I updated your categorization to remove “Uncategorized”, and to add “Schadenfreude“, which is “Pleasure taken from someone else’s misfortune”. That is exactly what I see at play here. The real theme of these postings is an insinuation that it was the ideological impurity which caused their failing, and not just sin. One need not look far beyond Tammy Fae Mesner or Ted Haggard to see this…
If it’s published in the news then it is read and/or seen by a large section of the general public, most of them probably unbelievers.
The setting up of these people as super-apostles comes directly from ideological/theological error. Are you saying that
this is not a contributing factor?
Anyway I thought we are all free to what as we “will”
Chris P., I struggle to believe you actually read my article. We are free to do what we will, good and bad.
Rick, brother, apparently you’re missing all the naming that the apostles did in their letters. And the naming of these specifically named peoples sins as well.
Example: “…for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.” 2 Tim 4:10. Thats just one of many. Would we call Paul obsessed with Gossip, or a ‘mean old watchdog’? Wasn’t Paul obsessed with sin and it’s consequence? Romans Chps. 3-8? How many other chapters did he write on sin and the judgement thereof? Scripture is replete with discussing sin, exposing it, and using the SPECIFIC examples of others to teach us. Should we not do what even our Lord has done? Did he not confront the false religiosity of His day and expose it? And moreso, for all to see/hear?
Not only that, but you find people’s names and personal sins listed in Acts, the Gospels, and ALL throughout the Old Testament. Why? Because of what you’ve already stated, a warning. But also for an exhortation, and a sign of the times.
You also said ‘how can people adhere to Phil4:8′? That verse does not exclude that we will have to put up with, be warned by, and expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. In fact, this would be utterly contradictory to Scripture and everyday life in this world.
“Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Eph.5:11 Guess we’d have to dwell on them huh? And report them too?
YOU know there are more Scriptures, I’m not here to educate you.
Brother, your post is biased and one-sided. You have not taken in to account the FULL council of God on the matter. And you know better, I’m sure you do. I don’t expect you to admit you are wrong in your analysis of the situation. The thing I’ve noticed in many Christian blogs, even the ‘watchdog’ ones (and yes, I like them, they keep me apprised), is no one ever admits they are wrong. But if everyone says everyone else is wrong, well then clearly someone is wrong, or everyone is, and someone needs to admit it. And it needs to be based on objective absolute truth, and that comes from Scripture.
I say this in love, because I think ignoring the Scriptures I listed will only lead to a one sided position, with a lack of objectivity. You fight them, they fight you, it’s actually heartbreaking, and you all think you’re right. Well someone’s not. So let’s figure it out shall we?
In Christ’s Love,
Joe
Whine whine whine.
I guess Paul wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit when he pointed out error.
“Sex sells.”
“If it bleeds, it leads.”
We should never be surprised that this kind of tabloid sensationalism actually works. SOL and its kindred “ministries” are just the extreme edge of fundamentalism’s fringe, using the same tactics as the National Enquirer, to reach the same fleshly appetites of the finger-pointing self-righteous. Even if they DIDN’T use secular sources, they’re still guilty of the same thing.
The only thing surprising about the Schadenfreude approach that miss-named “discernment” ministries attract and feed, is that people are surprised at the lengths they’ll go to.
Chris L Are you insinuating that Tammy Faye and Ted Haggard were examples of good/pure ideology (or pure doctrine/good teaching)? That’s choice!
PJ,
By no means am I making any comment about Tammy Faye and/or Ted Haggard’s theology – I am saying that God causes the sun to rise and rain to fall on both the good and the evil, and that this sort of ‘pile on’ is little short of an attempt to try and connect the theology of those with whom SoL/C?N disagrees to their sins (or earthly consequences of their sins).
Joe,
You wrote:
I would submit these as but a few examples here:
* See the author’s comment (currently 3rd from the bottom) here.
* See my comment here.
I can do some more searching and find several more examples from this site, because we DO try to admit when we’re wrong.
The point Rick was making, which is a valid one, is not that we should no recognize sin, but that we should not take joy/glee/validation from its consequences applied to others…
All you guys pointing out that sins are publicly named in the scriptures are missing a couple of points.
1. Especially in the NT, these were written either to the individuals in question, or to their leaders. Generally for the purposes of correction and/or how to proceed in light of this. None of the watchdoggies are incorporating these elements into their actions.
2. The writers of the scriptures who publicly proclaimed sin, actually knew the individuals involved, and usually had authority over them in the local church. The watchdoggies, on the other hand, have none of that.
3. Paul, especially, when he wrote about sins publicly intended his pointing out of sins to be both of an ultimate benefit to the individual named, and the immediate benefit of the church in question. I don’t see any of that in the watchdoggies’ posts about sin.
4. The watchdoggies’ only motivation in pointing out these transgressions is to show everyone that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. Their point is the same everytime: that these sins are a direct result from believing/doing things differently from the watchdoggies. They might as well be praying “thank you Lord for making me different from those sinners over there”. Its sickening.
Yes, let’s all keep apprised on everyone’s sin. Let’s get a database and ask all churches to immediately report any moral failures so we can be fully apprised. All the instances in the Scriptures that GOD GAVE are not sufficient for a teaching and warning example, we need more. How many more is enough? We’ll let you know.
We criticize the secular news for only reporting the negative and we do it also. How many youth pastors have remained pure and faithful? Who cares, the moral failures get the ink. I am having a difficult time believing that our motive for keeping apprised is to keep our prayer journals current.
There, the emperor has no clothes.
Okay I agree with you Chris. No rejoicing in sin. But I don’t necessarily think SOL or CRN does that. They seem pretty upset about the sins they have to report on. Emphatically upset.
And I can see this site has admitted fault before, but I didn’t say it didn’t. But I’ll take the hit for insinuating that though. I really don’t expect Rick to admit they are wrong on this post right here though. Mostly because he seems very fired up about this, and to admit improper analysis would be akin to saying SOL and CRN is justified in what they are doing, and that would defeat the entire purpose of this blog. I don’t think I’m influencial enough to cause a change like that. God is, I’m not. I think my points still need to be addressed, or proven false by exegesis. And I’m not saying slice or CRN is always right either. We’re all wrong many times in our lives. But we have to look at things objectively, from Scripture, standing outside of the situation, so that we’re not emotionally so attatched that we cannot discern properly. Let’s not set up idols in our hearts to our own biases.
But yep, I do agree with you Chris. However, Rick’s statements were much stronger, and so I do not agree with him. He implied something very different than your analysis of his post. In fact, the entire purpose of this blog is to do exactly the same thing SOL does, except this site does it right back to them! How dare any of these sites have a ‘hypocrisy’ section? You’re ALL hypocrites. Me included. Even having a part of your site labled that is just making us more hypocritical. Isn’t that the epitomy of hypocrisy? It seems almost all the posts I can read have that undertone/implication (not necessarily directly stated, admittedly). “They’re not Christians, we’re right”. And this is on both this site and the ‘other sides’ site. This is the impression I get, and if I get that impression, someone else must be too. It doesn’t matter your intentions, it’s how people perceive how and what you said.
What was the undertone of Rick’s post up there? Can anyone tell me?
Everyone take a breath, step back, and take a look at what is going on out there, objectively. Get rid of your emotions for a minute. Seriously consider what we’re saying.
But Chris, I have to ask, why didn’t you address the actual bulk and thrust of my post? Why did you just point out my ignorance to your site’s ability to admit wrongdoing (I admit this is my own ignorance, but I can’t go through all posts when there’s a post to address right here, and it needs it right now, and besides, I never said YOU guys don’t admit you’re wrong, but I know CRN and SOL barely ever do.)
Please address what I brought up. I’d like to hear other’s thoughts. That helps with cross-checking for error.
Just so you know, I do frequent SOL and CRN, but now I’ll be visiting the counter blogs much more often as well, I have to be honest with my research. Since you’re all so polarized, maybe I can figure out the actual story by hearing both sides more prominently. You know what they say “There’s his side, the other side, and the true side.”
But I personally think all of this blogsphere is in a ridiculous state right now. That’s not to discount WHAT is being reported though. The HOW is becoming a huge problem though.
Spirit and TRUTH guys, Spirit and TRUTH.
Where do we get Truth from?
Joe
I’ve been reading the watchdoggie blogs and here’s my thoughts:
1. CR?N has never admitted it’s wrong, unlike this site
2. CR?N and Slice have, in my opinion, celebrated the fall of people they don’t agree with. I think they enjoyed other peoples sins.
Tim you said…
“Paul, especially, when he wrote about sins publicly intended his pointing out of sins to be both of an ultimate benefit to the individual named, and the immediate benefit of the church in question. I don’t see any of that in the watchdoggies’ posts about sin. ”
YOU don’t see it? Okay, well, I do. I’m sure others do. I’ve seen many posts calling pastors to repentance, and they say they send emails, and they communicate, in a loving manner, to try and correct these people of their errors. Can’t ANY Christian can correct ANY other Christian, when necessary? Of course we can! We’re commanded to! I don’t have to be in a church’s chain of command in order to rebuke a fallen brother of that church, do I? What you’re saying just doesn’t make sense here brother. “The watchdoggies’ only motivation in pointing out these transgressions is to show everyone that they’re right and everyone else is wrong.” Prove it. Surely you know their hearts as well as God does? I know you don’t. And I know they would never say “anyone who believes one ioda differently than us is not a Christian”. Never.
Aren’t you doing the same thing you just accused them of? Is not the languge of your post suggestive of “I’m right they’re wrong”?
And Rick, I’m sad you responded so sarcastically, I was trying to be nice and loving, I do not appreciate your lack recipricocity. Maybe you don’t think they pray for those they report on, but that doesn’t mean that SOME OF US don’t. And do you listen to their prayers? Rick, you sound just like they do! Don’t you see it in your language? Look in to your heart brother.
Rick you’re right, Scripture is sufficient, but it’s also about FOLLOWING the example set before us. If Jesus, Paul, and Peter, etc, all exposed falsehood and deeds of darkness, shouldn’t we follow that? I KNOW we MUST, IF we claim to live in Him, walk as Jesus did. And follow Pauls example as he follows Christ. What do you make of Eph.5:11? I didn’t see anyone use Scripture to refute what I said. Please do, because you guys obviously think I am wrong, and I MUST be corrected if that is the case. And I’m being serious, I’m not being sacrastic at all. But you haven’t said anything that I can’t come right back and refute.
I do agree with you Rick on one of the things you said. Why all the reporting about the bad (your site included, as you report on the bad doings of these ‘watch doggies’), and a total imbalance in the ratio of the good things? There are so many praiseworthy things being done, right along side of the bad, so I think we need to balance more. So I can agree with that, definitely.
Okay Okay, believe it or not I’m at work, and I’m totally misusing this government computer! hahaha. I have to go. bye guys!
Love, Joe
interesting points…
Yes Paul does call some by name… those that opposed him and the teachings of Jesus Christ…
Yet, if I recall the man who was sleeping with his father’s wife in Corinth… never once does Paul say his name…
So, I see that there is a point that calling out by name is right one… and a point that sometimes it is better to not call out by name for the sake of restoration of the one who has fallen into sin.
I mean, I would hate to be called out by name about my sin… though I have been rebuke many times by people that love me and have confessed my weakness and have been restored.
I do think that a leader that has been rebuked privately should be called out if they continue to sin… yet, as the bible instructs with gentleness…
Galatians 6: 1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
Interestingly to me it seems that some that deem themselves “spiritual” care little for being gentle.
Blessings,
iggy
Joe C,
I’ve just re-read the front page of SoL, and I don’t see any concern for the health of these churches, or the individuals involved in the sin. Not a single line. In stead I see things like this:
Hmmm… doesn’t seem to be any concern for church or sinner there.
Iggy, sometimes you can’t be gentle, sometimes you need to REBUKE. Otherwise the word rebuke, meaning sharp correction, wouldn’t be used. You know what I mean?
Also, it depends on if your meaning of ‘gentle’ is the same as the meaning Paul intended. I’m sure he didn’t mean ‘beat around the bush’ = gentle. And slice obviously doesn’t beat around anything, except of course the sins (and is anyone refuting that what gets reported is sin? Just curious). And unfortunately the sinners too. However, to say they don’t care for these people is a false generalization, and to say they love other people’s sins, is ridiculous at best. They’re grieved too, can’t you see it?
I don’t know, maybe we can’t, because if we start admitting that we’re all flesh and blood human beings again, then maybe we’ll start saying to each other ‘you’re right about this, I’m wrong, sorry’ ‘oh hey it’s okay, you’re right about this, i’m wrong, sorry’, instead of all this polarizing going on. I think moreso on SOL and CRN than anyone else, but still, are we all not at fault?
Joe
The prayer thing – it only applies to those to whom it applies. God knows, I don’t. If I discovered that many people copy down the names of people like Haggard or the more insignificant ones and faithfully prayed for them, I would be surprised.
I usually don’t pray for them, maybe I’m in the minority or maybe were not being honest. I do know that the secular newspapers don’t report so people can pray, and I usually don’t read an exhortation for prayer on Christian blogs.
Even the imlication about the theology connection reveals an agenda whcih doesn’t seem to include the fallen brother’s restoration. Please let me know how many posts that reported someone’s sin were followed later with a praise report on their restoration. What do you think? I’m going with none. What does that seem to indicate, although only God knows the heart (the tacit disclaimer that sounds spiritual).
But still no one addressed my points!!!! And how do you know that they are just REPORTING the news, and they actually DO CARE and ARE CONCERNED for the sinners? Doesn’t the very fact that they have a site reporting on this stuff mean they OBVIOUSLY CARE? Shouldn’t that be a given?
Alright, you’re all pretty entrenched, so what can I bring in to this huh? I’ll pray for us all, that we can all resolve the issues we obviously have with each other. So that we can actually start objective conversations. And start actually addressing each other’s comments, instead of playing the same old record, over and over. I have to leave work now, so I won’t be checking back for a while, by which point I assume I’ll have been dismantled and destroyed several times, per usual on the comment forums lol. But that’s thinking pretty highly of myself I guess, so maybe I’ll just be ignored. It’s okay, I just wish that I could have been corrected if you guys think I’m so wrong, or maybe you agree with me and just dont want to say it? How can I even know? I’ll go to the Word instead, the Teacher will correct me if need be.
Thanks though for letting me see some new things though, bye!!!
Joe
“Doesn’t the very fact that they have a site reporting on this stuff mean they OBVIOUSLY CARE? Shouldn’t that be a given?”
Joe РI envy your naivet̩. You seem like a sincere brother.
Well all I can see in this post and the rationality for this entire website for that matter is some people who have a chip on their shoulder and some spite towards some discernment web sites.
So if you are trying to insinuate that Discernment web sites only post articles about the failings of others because they get some kind of perverse glee out of it, your not proving yourself any better than them by this article!
This article could be a monument to hypocrisy! I mean the actual personal spite evident in this article is overwhelming! And to boot it has no Biblical Support what so ever!
Instead you are being a very unbiblical back-biter! And my friend I would fear to be in your shoes a heck of a lot more than the discernment web sites you are pointing out.
I have not found that any of the discernment web sites you mention actually enjoy or revel in having to bring to light the utter depravity in the Church today. In actual fact they all weep for what is happening. They groan in their spirit over it.
Because it is not a small minority of the western church that is going off the rails, we are in a time when the mass majority of the church and its leadership is throwing off all restraint to actually run after carnality and false doctrines.
The time we live in today will be looked back on as a major turning point for the church, where it divorced itself from being the Christians that the Bible and God asks them to be to being whatever they themselves in their depraved carnal mind chose to be, the time when they were overcome by a strong delusion.
And there are far too few people making others aware of this pivotal point in history and those like you and your website who choose to snipe and sneer at what the discernment web sites do, are just showing how deluded, blind and deaf they have become to the rotten state of Christianity in the west.
And you place yourself in a position to be overcome by that rot which you choose to defend!
You have no Biblical basis for what you do here or for your contention that the discernment web sites get some kind of glee out of what they do, other than your own skewed and spiteful personal opinion.
It is a true fact that those who tend toward the ignoring of large scale sin in the Church do so because they have a rebellious spirit, and have a desire themselves to live on the outside edge of what could be considered Christian living as opposed to staying as close as possible to how God asks us to live.
The next time you choose to vent your personal spite, take a step back compare your article to God’s Word. You will most likely find you are writing contrary to God’s ways and purposes.
Joe,
You asked me:
My apologies – I had a few minutes left on my lunch break, and when I read a comment, I often view the summation as the primary thrust of the comment (which isn’t always the case).
You asked about the naming of names and the application of Phil 4:8, also referencing Eph 5:11
)
In this particular case, C?N and SoL have no personal relationship with these men or the churches they serve. Their ‘deeds of darkness’ have been exposed well beyond the bounds of Paul’s admonition unto the ends of the earth. It should be no surprise that the secular media might do this. However, SoL/C?N have gone beyond this to try to make hay out of a theological disagreement (as referenced in their descriptions of who/what these men ‘represent’) by tying it to a man’s sin. In doing so, they are making an ad homenim attack on the ideology they have attempted to synonymize with these men, with no real care of love in doing so.
What good does it do these men or to the church (in part or in toto) to continue “expose” their sin, when it has already been exposed to those who know them personally? Who does their “exposing” serve – a) the sinner and those sinned against; or b) the “exposers” who expose nothing, but use these men’s sin for their own attempted ideological gain?
john – visiting your website immediately revealed you posted a secular, detail laden account of a pastoral couple’s divorce in Florida. You even exhort people not to get “sucked in” to the evil men and seducers you attach to them. I did not detect any weeping or groaning for them as you suggested.
It would follow that you disagree with my post.
PJ, are you new to this site? I don’t recognize your handle.
After reading what Rick wrote, and then visiting your website…
…well.
I can’t wait until I decide I have an apostate pastor so I can send the link.
There’s a huge disconnect here, between what Rick is trying to say and then finding myself reading that statement which seems to suggest that apostate pastors are flooding the earth and there are now steps to be taken (if I have any).
What is this? A Christian pirate flag for when I deem the pastor wrong?
I, too, was perturbed by the “righteous pile-on” of Haggard et. al. that Rick mentions. And now we can do it by sending a simple URL via email. In love, of course.
The damage we do to each other is amazing…
John,
It is so fortunate that only God knows the hearts of men, because you certainly do not… Perhaps, though, your post is satire, in which you role-play the antagonist in Luke 18:9-14?
There is no need to broadcast “news” of other Christians moral failures beyond the local body impacted by it, but (as noted by Henry), to allow them to be restored by their communities and to set our minds on what is pure and holy.
This site exists to defend brothers in the faith from snipers aiming into the fold. Additionally, we hope these snipers will come to repentence for their continued sin, and as part of their community – the Christian blogosphere – we have that particular responsibility. We also hope to serve God in countering the toxins they spew into the church, which are far worse than the misdiagnosed ‘cancers’ the whine and cry about.
If REBUKE is needed, I see no additional need to pour it upon men and women at local churches who have fallen to sin and have received rebuke from their own churches for it. Rather, it is needed for those who see these failings as news when it is nothing more than agenda-driven gossip.
Somehow, I suspect that were the pastor in question’s name John MacArthur (or the like), we’d be hearing calls to pray for his family and his church and see none of the tone displayed toward these men…
Ironically, one of the pastors they are celebrating getting caught in sin was not a PDL or emerging/emergent.
He was a KJV only guy.
Talk about shooting your own.
It’s really sad. Please pray for all involved.
Julie – A Christian pirate flag! I haven’t laughed that hard in weeks. You are so very funny, the wiring in your brain somehow was fried years ago. Thank you for your perspectives both seriously and the “Prairie Princess” variety!
All of this makes me wonder if anyone has read Matthew 18. That site that Chris R put together is sinful. Jesus commands us to directly confront those who are sinning.
Somehow I think pastors across the US are better off when folks like Ingrid decide to go off and form a house church.
The new ODM motto:
Love is hate.
War is peace.
Rick
You described Paula White and here Husband “Bishop” White as “a pastoral couple from Florida”
And in this description you insinuated as if the couple were some unknown pastoral couple in Florida, and some devious nefarious digging was done to uncover them and their failings.
And in doing so you attempt to downplay who this couple is and the overwhelming negative impact they have been having on Christianity in the western world. “This Couple” is a very high profile internationally known couple who have been debasing and insulting God’s word for years
Anyone who knows God’s word can compare their actions and words to what the Bible says their actions and words should be and can very clearly see that they are False Christians. Wolves whose only aim is to profit themselves at the expense of the sheep!
The problem today as I have said before which in your rebellion against God you choose to ignore is that the mass of western Christianity have been deceived by the likes of this “little ole innocent pastoral Couple from Florida” in to thinking that what they teach and how they act is ok, when in actual fact everything they do is in direct opposition to God’s word for how such people should teach and conduct themselves.
And under such circumstances it is not only perfectly Biblical but also Biblically expedient to provide further proof of why these people are False Christians to those who are being deceived or who may be deceived by them!
I challenge you to provide Biblical proof to the contrary!
So put up or shut up!
John
And here I thought that separating the wheat from the tares belonged to … God
Why is it that those who claim the Biblical high ground never actually quote scripture? All those words in your last comment and not a single scrap of scripture.
John,
You remind me of a ‘john’ that I tried to discuss some things with last year on Tony Rose’s site, who wouldn’t continue the conversation if I didn’t first acknowledge that Catholics were bound for hell.
Are you and that john one in the same?
Tim,
You asked:
In the case of Ken, he started out trying to do so with me and the guys from VS last year, but when we pointed out that his hermeneutical use of the scriptures chosen was laughable, he stopped and never got around it again…
Ah well, that makes sense.
john – I agree with your theological assessment of the Whites, I live several miles from their church. What does their divorce, itemized by the secular press, have to do with their health and wealth theology?
I slap your face with an electronic glove and challenge you to a Biblical duel. Ten verses apiece with two commentaries. Brother, they do serve decaff!
Well I guess I have really beend dispatched to the wood shed now havent I.
Sorry fella’s my skin is pretty thick when it comes to encountering apostates who rant whether Biblical Proof is provided or not to counter their false arguments.
There is a common thread among the Discernment watchblog backbiter whiner sites, they all look like MSN Teenage chat rooms.
So fire some more volleys kids, recess is almost over!
Well, at least I suppose we don’t have to worry about false humility in actually discussing Biblical issues with you, since you already know you’re right and that anything we say is wrong since we’re “apostates”…
Apparently, you ascribe to the ‘clanging cymbal’ school, as well…
John,
I still didn’t see any scripture from you.
Rick,
Your reply just adds more weight to what I have said previously about your article and this website.
It serves no positive purpose whatsover to Christianity.
You just want to have a personal whine. you agree about the Whites and what they are about, but you still either through personal rebellion or pure ignorance choose to overly downplay their overhwelming negative impact on Christianity that they have had and continue to have.
The reporting about their dvorce actually speaks volumes about them and their philosophy and whether you like it or not or think it is unseamly to report the news of their divorce, it needs to be put out there as these people are masters at spinning their own press to suit their own carnal and selfish goals to decieve the sheep!
According to your method we should all just let the wolves ravage the sheep and keep our mouths shut, but my friend that is very anti-Bblical.
And since you agree that what the Whites are about is against God, the Bible and Christianity, you again are acting in opposition to God because you know what they are about and choose to not only NOT warn people about them and provide proof of why they are not of God but attempt to discredit and frustrate those who do!
Again you have been challenged to provide Biblical proof to the contrary.
So again: Put up or Shut up
Still no scripture.
Come on, guys, a Christian Pirate Flag? Doesn’t anyone have a sense of humor? That’s the greatest caricature since it disarms the attempt by some to imagine themselves as Truth Warriors and Julie labels their banner as a Christian Pirate Flag.
I could use one of those a day!
Chris,
yes you are an apostate if you choose to sit here and snipe at those who are defending God’s word. Again Rick has provided absolutely no Biblical justification for this article or what he does on this web site and neither have you.
Excuse me, what? I haven’t seen you put up a Biblical argument with which to “put up” – just lots of unsupported invective.
john – you say:
“you agree about the Whites and what they are about, but you still either through personal rebellion or pure ignorance choose to overly downplay their overhwelming negative impact on Christianity that they have had and continue to have. ”
I have pictures of me kicking Randy White and throwing mud on Paula. Top that!
Still no scripture.
I’m amazed at how you can declare, well, pretty much everyone except yoruself as apostate without actually bringing scripture into it. Are you speaking ex cathedra like the Pope? If so I hope you get a cool hat.
Rick,
Still waiting! you see you just keep proving that you are an apostate and only interested in having a web site for your own rebellion against God whine at those you personally dont like but at the same time have absolutely no Biblical justification for it. thats called being an aposate.
Like it or not, whine about it or not, but it doesnt change the facts
Those who are not saved and whine against the church have an excuse, they dont know any better, but those who claim to be of Christ but just sit around and take personal pot shots wth no Blblical justification they are much worse and will be judged much more harshly.
And Rick you are in that position. If I was you I would be issuing some apologies and asking for some forgivness.
john – You have crossed the boundaries of being taken seriously. Like sticking someone with the Old Maid, you have stuck me/us with the dreaded “apostate” card.
And just so you know, I don’t drink whine.
Tim,
nice try and attempting to switch around my challenge and put it back on me. if I remember right I issued the challenge for Rick to provide some Biblical Justification for his article and words of which he still has not provided.
and a person IS an apostate by their conduct, if they choose to conduct themsevles consistantly in a manner that is in direct opposition to how God’s word says they should conduct themsleves. yo dont have to be a Pope to declare that you just have to have an 8th grade understanding of God’s word.
John,
Still no scripture from you.
Put up or shut up… well, actually it doesn’t matter because as Rick has pointed out, you’re not being taken seriously because you’ve conducted yourself in such a shameful way.
Apostate: One who has abandoned one’s religious faith
Sorry – your accusation doesn’t wash – I worship God, not men. Those “defenders” are little more than the shepherds of Ezekiel 34, those spoken to by Jesus in Matthew 23.
Instead, we love our brothers who are being unjustly attacked from within the church in addition to the attacks from without. The latter I understand, but not the former.
Much of the ODM crowd (including SoL/C?N) have made God’s word into Orwell’s 1984, in which love is hate and war is peace.
They (and you, having looked at your site) have recreated the greatest two commands into a mockery:
Love your God: Determine what it means for you to obey God, based heavily on tradition or your own social mores and – possibly – the Bible (insofar as the Ten Commandments are concerned), and then expect everyone else to “obey God†based on your definition. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate. Additionally, to love God means to know exactly how He works and does not work and to know all the ‘Christianese’ terms which define these workings, along with all the right soteriology, and to then expect everyone else to understand God exactly the way you do. If they don’t, they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate.
Love your Neighbor: Step 1: If your ‘neighbor’ is somewhere between mistaken and apostate (see “Love your Godâ€), your first and foremost duty is to make them see the error of their ways, and if they do not, to warn everybody else that they are somewhere between mistaken and apostate, and by all means mock them and distort anything/everything that makes them mistaken or apostate in your eyes. Step 2: If they are still around after Step 1, and if they are in need, it might be a nice thing to do to help them out.
___________–
While we do not always succeed, we try to abide by the words of Peter: But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Rick,
If you cannot provide any Biblical justification to defend what you are doing here you are an apostate whiner.
I have repeatedly asked you to provide it, and I am still waiting.
You wrote the article now show how God is on your side in writing it by providing Biblical justification for it or as I said:
Put up or Shut up!
Can John be put on the moderated list until he comes up with scripture? Or learns to play nice?
Dang, look at all that scripture from Chris L. You might try something like that John.
John,
And how is it that Rick must defend himself or be apostate if you’ve not yet given any proof of apostasy?
Chris,
One who has abandoned one’s religious faith does not strictly mean that they come out verbally and declare they have abandonded their faith. you know the letter of words but you do not know the spirit of THE Word.
you become an apostate to God when your continued actions and words viloate how God asks us to act and to speak.
Unjustified and unBiblical Back-biting like what goes on here is a very clear sign of apostasy!
2 Timothy 2:14-16, 23-26
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
OK – for all the other people who are reading this I will provide some Scripture, of which their are legion, to give some guidance concerning my original post. It may not exonerate me from the apostate club, but I present them for your consideration without hysteria.
Gal.6:1 – Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
II Cor.2:6-7 – Sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted of many. So contrarywise you ought rather to forgive him and comfort him lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with much sorrow.
I Pet.4:8 – And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves, for charity shall cover a multitude of sins.
I Cor.13 – the whole chapter
Eph.4:32 – And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you.
II Cor.2:10-11 – To whom you forgive anything, I forgive also: for if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, for yoursakes forgave I it in the person of Christ. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us, for we are not ignorant of his devices.
These are just a very few admonishments from our Heavenly Father that should temper our dealings with fallen brethren no matter what theological camp they espouse.
OK, if you don’t see the koo koo birds flying around this guy’s stuff that’s too bad. Rick has his issues (as do we all) but this guy wouldn’t know logic if it rose up and bit his knee.
Titus 3:10
Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
I’m rejecting you bud, I promise.
What’s that say about people like Ingrid and Ken who had such a hard time finding a church they could deal with they had to start house churches?
Seems to me that’s a condemnation of the divisiveness of the watchdoggies.
OK – you just convicted C?N/SoL quite well with 2 Timothy, as the have come to embody the very definition of “Unjustified and unBiblical Back-biting”. Your definition of apostasy is so weak, it’s laughable, and your willingness to declare others “False Christians” only convicts yourself.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
You’ve not yet answered any of my questions about how trumpeting the failures of church members beyond their own congregations serves Christ.
We admit that we sometimes fail to distinguish between foolish disputes and ones which defend our brothers, but we are trying – with God’s help – to improve.
Rick,
Sorry friend you are showing that you have no ability exegete the Word of God.
Some passages apply to those who we know are Christians and have been overtaken in a moment of weakness. These are ones you have provided.
Other Passages apply to those who show by their continued actions and or words that they are not of God, and hence are not to be accorded the same mercy.
You cannnot apply your verses to the Whites, As they have by their continued actions shown that they are not of God. This you even said in your own words.
john – maybe it is time for you to leave us apostates and go look for like minded brethren, we have heard your warnings and we will take them under advisement.
Wow…
Chris,
you also do not how to exegete the Word of God becasue you have taken that verse out of context. It does not apply to those who are saved.
Paul used that verse in the context imbedded in multiple chapters of Romans to show why those who did not know God even though they were those who may have been appointed as judges over others would still be condemned to hell because they did things that were as equally as sinful. Paul went on to use this theme in Romans to lead up to why all had sin and come short of the glory of God and therefore needed Salvation through Christ
OK, Chris, when you asked me to be a contributor you never mentioned you had an ambush already set. Thanks brother, now my wife thinks I’m an apostate!
Chris,
you are also making the same mistake that Rick. In exegeting that passage from Matthew 7. Jesus was not speaking in regards to not judging those who had already shown themselves to not be of God. He was speaking of not judging your brother if he makes a mistake and falls.
Again the Whites have shown themselves repeatedly that they are not of God. So you cannot apply verses that relate to those who are saved who may make a mistake and fall.
I would be very interested in seeing how you would show that Whites believe that what they have continually done in the past and still do are mistakes that they need to repent of. On the contrary they believe that they are ok and can continue to do what they do and still be ok. And then to make it worse by convincing those that they shepherd that what they do is ok.
There is a common thread among the Discernment watchblog backbiter whiner sites, they all look like MSN Teenage chat rooms.
So fire some more volleys kids, recess is almost over!
Wow… blatant, unwarranted personal attacks.
You see… when you can’t attack ideas, attack the person instead.
I think that is 1st Watchdog 3:16.
John… please justify, with scriptural references please, your personal attacks of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Rick?
An apostate?!?
That’s the funniest and most ludicrous false accusation I’ve heard in a long while!
This is a joke, right?
Sorry. My bad….
Forgot to close the bold tag on the last comment…
Hey Robbymac – Chris L. lured me into here and then called his friend john and now look – I’m an apostate. I guess I’m backed into joining the emergent clan unless I can get absolution from you know who!
I can’t help it, when it becomes this absurd I get the laughing revival!
No one ever answered my question way back when.
What do we do with this? Especially verses 11-14
Eph 5:
1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not become partners with them; 8for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Who’s glad that I posted a link to this at CRN? lol!!
A parting word and I will leave your website to hopefully more postive articles that uplift the True Church body instead of sniping at it:
Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,†says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.†It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Think about this. You said that you knew that what the Whites did was not right, that what they preached was not Biblical. Read the above passage from Hebews 10. The Whites like others should have knowledge especially as rasied up international leaders how to conduct themselves in a Biblical manner. If they choose to continually conduct themselves willfully in defiance of God’s word and defend that to the sheep, then they fall under this passage.
And it then becomes more expedient to warn the millions of others who have been affected by their apostasy, than it does to show mercy to the Whites especially when the Whites are unrepentant for what they do.
Good Day.
btw
All of this “news” is public knowledge before it is ever posted anywhere else. How is that tabloid journalism?
No one is sending out reporters and photographers to cover the story or dig previously uncovered dirt.
“unless I can get absolution from you know who!”
John MacArthur?
wow…
john…
we will know your a disciple of Jesus by your vigorous, vehement demands for exegesis and “putting up or shutting up”.
thanks.
And there you have it, Chris L., sound exegesis!
“All of this “news†is public knowledge before it is ever posted anywhere else. How is that tabloid journalism?”
Because it’s not written to inform. As you’ve stated, it’s public knowledge. What is gained by posting a linking article?
Todd – No, a little friendly dig at a friend of ours a little closer to home. Once in a while it might help for everyone to take a deep breath and laugh. I’m going to use the Christian Pirate Flag as my own personal catnip!
OK, lte’s unravel this. I posted that I thought it was overkill and unredemptive to link to a secular article chronicling a brother’s sins for which he has admitted and resigned. Fast forward – I’m an apostate. Robbymac is closer to an apostate than I am!!!
Oh, sorry.
Rick,
Sorry about that – I honestly didn’t set up the moonbat attack!
Rick;
Here is where you went wrong:
“chronicling a brother’s sins”
You make it seem as if people like the Whites and the Weeks are brothers, and here you blind yourself to what the Word says about how to recognize if someone is trully a brother or sister. Its by their words and actions.
Someone is not a brother or Sister just because they say they are a Christian. And this is the problem that you keep missing or actually refuse to accept.
Now the Whites and Weeks may be your Brother and Sister but they are not mine as they teach a false gospel:
Galatians 1:8-9:
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
So in closing no it was not overkill or unredemptive to link to a secular article.
Which thinking about it is a bit ironic that you would get in a hackle about linking to what you call a “secular” article because you seem to have a very blurry line of what is Christian or not, who is a brother or sister or not etc. And your standard of what is and what is not, and who is and who is not are based on your personal opnions and not the Word of God.
You ignore those passages that were intended to show us very clearly the actions and words of those who are not of God but claim they are, and then you latch on to verses to justify including everyone as a brother and sister o matter what they do.
So really from your ideology nothing is secular which further proves the bankruptcy and hypocrisy of your article!
“you seem to have a very blurry line of what is Christian or not, who is a brother or sister or not etc. ”
I’m beginning to think you may be right.
Rick,
and thank you once again for showing very clearly what is wrong with your ideology and why your article is pretty much devoid of any Biblical Wisdom.
Rick,
You are always welcome in the emerging crowd… I mean we accept everyone and everything except whatever Johnny Mac and company make up about us…
In a way it is freeing to be an apostate… as Jesus was accused of the same thing… and the anti emerging crowd seem to have a disdain for the very people Jesus died for…
If I recall the attack come from them first… and no matter how much someone proves that what they beleive is orthodox, we are still condemned because of our association…
Mean while people like Ken Silva claim the SBC covering and call their own group backslidden and apostate… but remain untouched by their own association…
To quote Johnny Mac, “There are people who use the bible to try to prove everything”… and it seems they can justify anything also.
The true apostate is the one who does not Love God and Love others… and Rick you are far from that!
1 Jn 1:3 21-23
blessings,
iggy
And I was beginning to humm the refrain “And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
Thanks, Iggy. I’m having lunch with Spencer Burke tomorrow.
John… still waiting for the biblical justification for personal attacks…
It shouldn’t be so hard to find it, right?
To Iggy:
My my my how people love to twist the truth.
There is nothing so sad as the willfully blind.
The Whites and the Weeks are the Pharisees of our day. If you could actually understand the word of God you would see that.
Its an old sad worn out emergent refrain that the defenders of the faith today are equivalent to the Pharisees of Jesus day.
Emergents utilize this phrase to its fullest extent: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” What hypocrites
Dave,
A personal attack is defined as one made against a specific individual without a factual basis. And I have not made any on this thread.
Curious: why is anyone even responding to “True Discernment” John?
Any “Christian” who ends his posts, after calling a bunch of people apostates, with “put up or shut up” isn’t to be taken seriously.
Seriously.
Put up or shut up. Ridiculous. It’s not even the language of an adult wanting to discuss anything. It’s the language of a bull in a china shop.
On another note: Chris L., I love the new “slogan”: Love is hate. War is peace. Could I have permission to use that in a little cartoon sometime?
OK, now I’m in the twlight zone.
Rick,
LABELING is seen as wrong. But everyone labels. Some mislabel wolves as errant sheep, pat them on their soft, fluffy heads, and unwittingly encourage them to continue in their false teaching and/or their immoral lifestyles.
How does this treating wolves as sheep occur?
1)by not knowing or ignoring scripture that helps one to know the difference.
2) by knowing that some are acting live wolves, but ignoring them because they “aren’t in my church” or “aren’t affecting my family.”
3) by continually speaking out against those who point out their errors
4) by continually speaking up for those who in some way try to defend that which can’t be biblically defended
By doing these things, some gain the favor of some men.
By doing these things some put our Christian brothers and sisters, our children and generations to come in great spiritual danger.
Scripture has harsh, harsh words about those who call themselves brothers but deny the faith by their actions and beliefs.
No we don’t always know who are errant brothers and who are wolves. But we do know that Satan will do everything he can into deceiving us into thinking that the wolves are not really wolves. Or by making us think that it’s not our business to decide. Or by making us think that the GENTLENESS and KINDNESS of the Lord is directed towards wolves, not those being ravished by the wolves.
I guess i have to agree with Rick now, hmm first time on this thread, yes we have entered the twilight zone.
I always find it really strange when people begin to flip out on a thread because they do not like what someone has said.
Its as if they do not have a choice to ignore what is being said but are somehow possessed and are compelled to interject.
Julie there is a very easy solution to your angst. Dont Type!
And that’s my cue to leave.
(Let me know about the slogan, though, Chris. It gave me an idea…)
You know I was wondering where Amy was.
Welcome back.
Now, I have not checked the ISP but are we sure that John isn’t Ken Silva or is John’s last name Silva? He said he was leaving for greener
pasturessites but instead posted 3 or 4 more time. Too funny!John,
You said you were leaving. Your vile fruit will remain here for all to read now head on boy, go.
John,
If someone professes Jesus, then I can only trust that the Holy Spirit will do as Jesus Promised.
It seems that even if someone is teaching something wrong, that we are still to love them…
Did you ever notice that Jesus states that after one approaches someone in sin
1. Alone
2. With a witness
3. Then publicly
Then they are to be treated as a pagan of tax collector… which strikes me odd… as Jesus accepted those and in His Kindness restored them…
So Jesus ate with tax collectors and taught them and still loved them..
the issue is not whether someone is apostate… it is whether they can
1. come to salvation in Jesus
2. Be restored by the ministry of reconciliation.
It seems that mostly the focus is on “exposing those sinners’ and we miss we are those sinners! There are none that are righteous… not one… except Jesus.
Personally there are a lot more Pharisees out there… anyone who demand that we need keep the Law to get Gods approval, and use the Law to make demands on God… is a Pharisee.
Blessings,
iggy
Welcome Amy – What a surprise, you disagree with me.
And quite coincidentally CRN links to john’s True Discerment about the White’s divorce. Here is the statement, you may choose for yourselves how many hidden meanings, hperbolic references, and just plain semi-mocking phrases are contained herein.
“Christian Research Net is saddened to hear a not so positive confession from these two purveyors of Word Faith heresy”
Much of Christianity is nothing more than a mirror of the world. At least most of the world is honest enough to admit they reject the teachings of Jesus.
john,
BTW i find it interesting you state this…
“I always find it really strange when people begin to flip out on a thread because they do not like what someone has said.
Its as if they do not have a choice to ignore what is being said but are somehow possessed and are compelled to interject.”
And I never once addressed you in anyway until you were compelled to interject when i made a comment to Rick….
Strange and a bit “twilight zonish” to me. LOL!
You seem to want to keep you cake and eat it to.
be blessed,
iggy
iggy,
Your inderstanding of Scripture is flawed and also your understanding of the full concept of what the word Love means!
Yes Jesus ate with sinners but what he did not do was approve of their sin or tell them to continue in it! The people repented and were changed.
Also what was the phrase that Jesus said many times after he healed someone?
“Sin no more, lest a worse thing befall you”
The key here is to no longer desire to wilfully sin! what we see today is so called leaders deceiving people, and abusing Jesus teachings becasue they desire to sin! They desire to be carnal.
Yes we always love everyone, but true love means speaking the truth in love. If a person is wilfully sinning and they have been made aware of the wilful sin and they refuse to repent or change, but instead choose to keep sinning and then much worse choose to teach others to wilfully sin, then what do you do?
You do as Paul did you warn those who might be deceived by those who teach falsely and show them what these false teachers are doing and the fruits of their false teaching.
Now if The Whites and the Bynums had been living true Biblical Godly lives and suddenly they divorced, mercy is in order, But these people have been sewing a false gospel for years and these stories are the latest rotten fruit of their false Gospel!
So we warn!
Your idea of love is not the Biblical meaning of love. your meaning of love is a 20th century fabrication that says love is a synonym for acceptance “as is” it is not! And this was not what Jesus taught!
Also I think if you read the Pauline letters Paul had a very clear and what you might consider un loving method for dealing with those who corrupted the faith of others.
even Paul realized that people could become so corrupted that the only thing that might turn them is to be shamed or even come to the point of death and judgment!
this is the other side of love you and others choose to ignore!
And I am not talking about keeping a law to gain approval of God. you cannot ever do that.
A law is intended to limit the extent of evil.
But being born again means you live to the Spirit, and if you are trully born again the Spirit desires to live righteously! To be like Christ! And becasue we live to the spirit we need no law to compel us to be Good!
What people like the Whites and Weeks teach is that its ok to be carnal its ok to sin because we are under Grace. its called a Greasy Grace! It is a false salvation, it means they have not been born again of the Spirit.
Because those born again of the Spirit abhore the things of the flesh!
Rick,
I voluntarily chose to begin commenting to show that your article was hypocritcal and without Biblical Merit.
I dont think I have flipped out on anyone becasue of what they have said on this thread.
Julie came in out of nowhere to let eveyone know that she was upset with what I had to say. There is a very big difference
john – Phelps called, he said the meeting is at 7:00.
John at 3:36
Since then? Well no less than 7 other comments! I believe the Bible says something about being a man of your word!
If you can’t trust a man who names his blog “True Discernment” then snipes at a woman who correctly points some fallacies in what he says, who can you trust nowadays?
Sad really
Rick,
Another aspect of your unbiblical spite is the disgraceful sarcasm!
You hypocritically state that you do not like someone coming down “hard” and personally attacking on this thread and then you engage in it?
Again Rick you cannot choose to write spiteful unbliblical letters pointing out what you call reveling in the downfall of others and then choose yourself to act in a sinful manner.
If you truly are the epitome of how Christians should live and respect others you would be able to display that fruit! And in this thread you have not.
Joe,
your comments are an aside, sort of like a very small dog that stands to the side and yaps while the big dogs are in there in the fight!
If Rick and others choose to make insulting remarks after I agreed to leave and I choose to respond to those insults it is no business of yours.
“If you truly are the epitome of how Christians should live and respect others you would be able to display that fruit!”
I’m not the epitome of anything except a verbose windbag sometimes. You are wearing me out, john. Let’s all do this another day on a another topic that you disagree with. That is quite a menu, no? I thought I had a handle on the different corners of orthodox dialogue, but you have proved me wrong.
I’m a diabetic and I’ve used all my sugar today on this thread, time for some juice. My next post will be non-controversial, something like “Why I believe the Earth is Round”.
Well thank you John, because your arguments and attitude remind of the excrement from a the little yapping dog. It smells bad, makes you ruffle your nose and kind of wonder what happened.
BTW, you’re wrong it is my business. Here’s why:
If you think you represent Jesus, Paul or anything about the church you need to turn your computer off and go read your Bible a little more.
Rick,
Yes think we should call it a day, when the words start getting to the level of “excrement” you know its went too far especially on a thread that is supposed to be discussing Christian issues.
And to Joe,
I think you are the one who needs to go read his Bible and doe some resious repenting. I mean come on! using the word Excrement! on a thread on Christianity!
you may have not liked my comment but it certainly did not get to the level of practically using four letter words. Just because excrement has more than four letters it still is a synonym for one.
So point your finger back at yourself friend.
Good evening all
excrement is a bad word now? unbelievable. you can call someone a little dog, but excrement is a bad word? wow…
A personal attack is defined as one made against a specific individual without a factual basis. And I have not made any on this thread.
You can create your own definitions all you want.
From Wikipedia (i know… not exactly an academic source):
You have clearly done that. Instead of attacking ideas, you have attacked people, clearly implying that you believe the commenters here are childish and immature.
Yet you sit there with your holier-than-thou attitude pretending that you are a superior Christian. You simply cannot justify your personal attacks Biblically, which is why you continue to ignore that issue (along with many others).
Keep it up though… your true colors continue to come out.
lol
Oh John, you are a piece of work.
Rick,
“Fast forward – I’m an apostate. Robbymac is closer to an apostate than I am!!!”
What?!?
How’d I get to be “close to an apostate”?!?
I’ll admit to having a few Calvinist friends, and a few non-Christian friends as well, but really…. ?!?
If I’m an apostate, you are too. Come on, I need some company! Just a joke, brother. The thread became humorous with such illogical invectives that it was absurd.
I see the tantrum continues…
talk about excrement…
Didn’t Paul mention in his letters BY NAME those who followed him as well as mentioning BY NAME those who deserted him. Was he gossiping? How would you like to have someone come to you and say that there was an ax murderer in your church, but then say, “i can’t tell you WHO because that would be gossip. Wouldn’t you demand to know who so that you can avoid such a person?
John,
I am done talking to you as you seem to add way more to my words than i have actually stated.
In other words you are adding things and judging me by some weird “twilight zone” thinkings of your own imagination and that you ahve no sense of reality in what I am saying.
Again, it was you who interupted me talking to Rick… and you are now stateing things about me that are lies…
I do know what love is… and Jesus while not condoning “sin” loved those sinners he ate with and “fellowshped” (gasp) with.
In that for all I ahva stated you wrote a very long peice of ignarance about what you think I believe without knowing me at all. LOL!
You are off having some weird conversation with yourself about the Whites and whoever and i have not mentioned them other than when you brought them up…
I attempted to add that if someone claims to be a brother, and professes Jesus that i can only tell if I may or may nto want to hang around them… as God can only judge a persons heart…
I am nto sure why you are addressing me as you are… in fact in the orignal statement I made to Rick I never addressed you at all… you addressed me and then now accuse me of things you know nothing at all about me and my beleifs….
Nope my view of Love is this:
1John 4:7-12
So you bear false witness against me… so please stop. It does not help your case to accuse me of a falsehood.
I know love as I am loved by the Father through JEsus Christ… I do nto hold to any 20th century ideas of love any most here will attest to that.
You sir speak in ignorance and seem more ready to judge others than do as commanded by jesus… and that is to love others.
I am not sure why you decided to even start in on an attack on me… but it seems to be in your carnal nature to do so.
Blessings,
iggy
Joe,
you wrote, “John at 3:36
A parting word and I will leave your website to hopefully more postive articles that uplift the True Church body instead of sniping at it:
Since then? Well no less than 7 other comments! I believe the Bible says something about being a man of your word.”
Shouldn’t we give this brother a break, or at least the benefit of the doubt? He probably did navigate away for awhile. He never said he wouldn’t come back. You may have misunderstood him…
He may have lied too — it’s possible. But to guess or be dogmatic would be judging motives and I didn’t think that Christians did that (especially emerging ones)…
Shouldn’t we give this brother a break, or at least the benefit of the doubt? He probably did navigate away for awhile. He never said he wouldn’t come back.
That is true… he did wait a total of 30 minutes between comments.
Julie,
Sorry – I was out for the evening – we went to hear the official “beginning of the year concert” at Purdue, which was most excellent.
Feel free to use the new slogan “Love is hate. War is peace.” – just realize that it was Big Brother’s slogan in George Orwell’s 1984, so I can’t take full credit.
Rick,
Absurd is right! Thanks for the email, too. Again, I approach your candor and the way that you write from somewhere between the extremes.
John,
You are still a piece of work. In actuality, you are an infant holding a grenade, cheapening the word apostate, as you apparently have no clue of its meaning. None of the scriptures I quoted were out of context, particularly the about being measured by the way in which you judge.
Until you actually come up with something Biblical beyond attempts at proof by assertion, my discussion with you is over…
Louie,
Paul did name individuals by name – people that were personally known by him to people who personally knew those named. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
You asked:
The articles linked from C?N/SoL were not directly related to the local churches of the C?N/SoL writers – they were about churches that didn’t fully match their ideology, in which those caught in sin were made a proxy for the ‘error’ in the churches, themselves.
Certainly if there is an axe murderer in your church it would not be gossip to say “we need additional accountability here”. However, for a church 900 miles away from your church to say “Church X believes Y (which we disagree with), and there is a convicted axe murderer there”, it would be gossip.
Plain and simple.
Dave,
Do you honestly believe he meant he was leaving for a whole 30 minutes to find these more edifying blogs? As far as what you know about emerging Christians, maybe you don’t know as much as you thought? Huh?
I wan to add the smile so please don’t take that statement as harsh.
Rick said,
That sounds familiar. You didn’t address the issues I presented to you, just as you previously didn’t address the issues I presented to you re: Samo’s letter.
Regarding the White’s divorce, it’s not just their divorce that is significant, it’s the way they go about talking about it. As if there is no possibility that there is anything wrong with it.
My reading of John’s article comes one day after skimming a novel by a lady whose name I have seen pop up on discernment sites as someone whom some Christians view as spiritually insightful. I purposefully checked out her book because I think there are few better ways to see what a person believes than to read a novel they’ve written. I had to skim rather than read it because in spite of the “religious” label it was filled with rubbish.
Amongst the other false ideas , in a nutshell, this novel presented a married lady’s adultery as a GOOD thing; her continuous adulterous acts with a monk were a “rebirth” for her. She was “alone with herself in a spiritual way.” Her “solitude of being” was reinforced.
Sue Monk Kidd, “The Mermaid Chair.” I don’t recommend it.
Like the White’s presentation of their divorce, this novel represents a twisting of truth. Why should Christians not be free to be concerned about how this kind of thinking affects the Christian body? Why should they not address it?
Rick,
You said, “john – Phelps called, he said the meeting is at 7:00.”
Which post of John’s is this directed towards? The 5:17 post which it follows or all of them? Please consider what you are doing.
Are you really thinking straight? It seems to me that since your surgery you have been on some kind of downslide.
What is John saying that is not biblical? Especially consider his 5:17 post. What is he saying that aligns him with Phelps?
What if his arguments are biblical, Joe? Then you have called the bible “excrement.”
What is unbiblical about his arguments?
Amy – teach about divorce. Warn about the pitfalls. Identify some misconceptions. Even expose the shallowness of some modern movements and theologies, but is it necessary to narrate the whole sordid mess? Would there be the same specific attention to a divorce from others camps, of which there are?
If you do not see a pattern, well, I do. I refuse to turn a blind eye to the unchristlike attitudes of people who I agree with about much. And I refuse to turn a blind eye to people who show Christlikeness but reject important Biblical doctrines.
It doesn’t take a clairvoyent to realize that because the Whites are health and wealth “preachers” it just sweetens the pie when exposing the details of their divorce. I again ask you to provide me with one, just one, follow-up post about any of these people who were later restored.
It is the details about moral failures that compel the mouse click, the restoration process doesn’t sell blog hits. And in full disclosure I read some of the newspaper reports about people who fall, that on some level is not edifying either. But my point is why grab a shovel and help sprinkle the dirt?
It is impossible to accuse and interceed simultaneously. So when I see people’s overall ambiance as accusatory I can assume they are not engaged in intercessory prayer. The two perspectives are mutually exclusive. My personal experience is when I really pray for people my heart grows more redemptive, when I don’t I can throw a stone to the moon with precision.
Amy – try and stay on point and not offer conjecture about my post surgery mental health. The Phelps refernce was some humor to reflect that I thought john was going over the deep end. Do you believe I am an apostate? I didn’t notice you reproving john for such rash and unjustified statements.
You have removed any impartiality from your perspective. If I am an apostate you shouldn’t be dialoguing here. If I’m not, john shouldn’t be.
Amy -
So you’re allowed Phelps humor to show that John is going over the deep end, and others are allowed numerous interactions that are not on point, but I’m not allowed to express a thought that I’ve been having for the last couple of weeks – an observation that I think you need to consider for your own well-being. I am not trying to put you down – I have honestly noticed a significant difference in what you accept and what you defend, starting with when you came back after your surgery. Possibly the differences were there before, and I just didn’t have my eyes open to them.
I have finally decided to express what I’ve been thinking regarding your “post-surgery mental health” because of this post. Your reactions on this post especially make me think that 1)you have changed significantly or 2) I never really understood where you were coming from.
I think you need to drop the question, “Do you believe I am an apostate?” and seriously consider the issues that John has presented and your reaction to them. There are wolves in this world, “shepherds” that tear apart God’s flock, and we are not to treat them as errant sheep.
This thread was not humourous as you described. What John is saying and how you all are fighting against what he is saying is a very serious matter. Calling someone’s arguments excrement from a yapping dog is a serious matter if those arguments are biblical.
I don’t care to know gory details about anyone’s divorce. I do care to know when people who call themselves Christians treat divorce as something that does not grieve the heart of God. I care to see what the Christian attitude “norms” are so that I am not 20 years behind in discussing issues with my children.
Interjecting… I have skimmed these comments and don’t see where anyone has mentioned 1 Tim 5:20. “Those [elders] who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.”
Not only did Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, John and all the prophets rebuke openly and name names, Paul directed Timothy do to is as he shepherded local churches.
To protect the true sheep from the wolves, we have to know who the wolves are.
Ginger,
I think we’ve covered the answer to your query a few times in the preceding thread.
Basically, this has already been done within the local body of the church. While we have examples of Paul and others “naming names”, in each case, they:
1) knew the person in question, personally
2) knew the community in which the person resided
3) “named names” to that particular community
To compare this to someone 900 miles from the local congregation trumpeting the sins of one of their members to the entire world as (supposedly) discrediting evidence of their theology goes beyond Paul’s admonition to Timothy and firmly into the bailiwick of gossip and schadenfruede.
Ginger,
1 Tim 5:20. “Those [elders] who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.â€
I did go through the “steps” Jesus taught. If you look at the verse it is the last step… We do not rush out and right off the bat air their sin to all… it is that after we approach them privately, then with two witnesses and they “continue to sin” we rebuke them publicly…
The men in question either turned themselves in to authorities, or were caught by authorities and there for we have no need to air their sin as their sin has already been exposed.
So there is a grave difference between someone like CRN and SoL who look for dirt to expose others and the teachings of Jesus…
I think this is more in line with the idea of “show we take another Christian before a judge” as to do so will bring shame on the Body of Christ. There is enough shame from guys who “continue to sin” and are caught by authorities that we do not need to go and then “expose” them further.
Blessings,
iggy
Chris,
I wrote a reply to Rick’s 10:28 comment which has not been posted. Can you please see what happened to it?
Do you honestly believe he meant he was leaving for a whole 30 minutes to find these more edifying blogs?
Joe… I was being sarcastic…
Chris,
Four points:
1. We have to be careful to distinguish between “elders” and “members” here. You wrote:
“To compare this to someone 900 miles from the local congregation trumpeting the sins of one of their MEMBERS to the entire world …”
Paul instructs that ELDERS are to be rebuked publicly here, not MEMBERS. The unrepentant sin of a member of a church 900 miles away is none of my business. The unrepentant sin of an elder in any church anywhere is my business.
If someone has placed himself in the office of overseer, they have taken on the mantle of Jesus and claim to represent Him for the purposes of serving, leading and instructing the flock. If he fails to do that either via false teaching or unrepentant sin, then the body is to be told in order that they may know that he is no longer to be considered an example of how to follow Jesus, and his instruction is not to be taken.
History is full of stories of “pastors” who destroy people’s lives, only to move on to a new town and repeat their abuse of authority. We need not look any farther than the sexual abuse in the Catholic priesthood to find extreme examples. They were never called out publicly so people kept entrusting their children to the care of known pedophiles.
There is only one church. If a pastor commits false teaching or private sin in my little town in Maine, then the little church in Nebraska needs to know that when he applies to be a pastor there.
Wolves all talk the good talk. If they couldn’t, they would not get away with being wolves for very long.
2. Paul says, “rebuke in the presence of ALL”. And in the case of every rebuke contained in scripture, it did not exist just with in the local churches where they took place, but the rest of the churches as the Pauline letters were circulated, but even in front of you and I as we read the scriptures two thousand years later. You can’t get much more “ALL” than that.
3. Paul is mandating this process only for elders who, “CONTINUE in sin”. Rebuking in the presence of ALL is to be done only after a loving Matthew 18 process of correction has taken place (or as much of it has taken place as the sinner will allow to happen, as most pastors who don’t want to be corrected either flee or try to sabotage the process).
4. Schadenfreude is a sin of the heart. I will confess that I committed it when my husband and I started calling Ted Haggard, “Meth Head Ted” around the house. That was really wrong and we should not have done that.
But we need to distinguish between making the public pronouncement, and how the pronouncement is received. If public rebuke is received like I received it (with disdain for Haggard, even though I had never even heard of him before) then it is sin and I need to repent of it.
But the fact that I responded in sin, is no justification to cease the practice that God has commanded in His word.
Iggy,
It does not bring shame on the body of Christ. It protects the holiness of the church. And best case senario, it can result in restoration.
The adulterer in 1 Cor 5 repented and was restored into the body. Paul called out Peter for giving the brush off to the gentiles who would not be circumcised. Peter repented and the church continued to flourish under his leadership.
The repentant hearts of the men who were publicly rebuked was what turned public discord into a healing testimony.
In both cases the men’s repentance went on to be wonderful testimonies of the effectiveness of loving church discipline and the healing grace of Jesus.
In both cases, the holiness of the church was also protected.
Sometimes it takes public rebuke for an unrepentant sinner to realize the gravity of his sins and repent.
Bottom line, any way you slice it, God said to do it. Who are we to question His judgment?
Ginger – your response to Haggard’s sin is most likely somewhat toned down. The scorn and humor that that permeated pulpits not to mention homes and minds was disgusting. Paul never meant a pervasive informational highway, he clearly intended a public rebuke in the presence of those over whom that particular elder ministered. It was punitive, not to inform the whole body of Christ.
Even if we desired to warn other churches then why not send the information to the elders of other churches, ceratinly not the public airways complete with baby Christians, doubters, unsaved, and a complete plethera of the human race. Paul spoke within the context of the city church.
And why post the salacious details as gleefully relived in the secular press? What fellowship do we have with the world? They have no part of us, and we should clean our own house, surely not increase their readership on the tragedy of one of our own. You want to inform other churches? Set up an internet site that requires a password that differs with each non-profit church so when they are interviewing they may visit it and do due diligence. Surely don’t post it in the dark marketplace of the world.
Love doesn’t rejoice in iniquity, but when a brother falls the world makes gleeful humor and we post the world’s account of the facts. Do you or I know for sure that what was written is factual? If anything that was written about Haggard was untrue it was gossip spread by the world and the church. Instead of shame, we publish it.
Without a personal avenue to determine if any allegations against some pastor in Arizona is true, I am evil surmising at best. And people that are calling Haggard names (as you admitted) certainly are not praying for him. A fool utters his whole heart and the church should be responsible enough to avoid gossip and gracious enough to begin restoration.
Where are the posts about the updates concerning the restoration of these people? the secular press has long since left the lives of these people in their wake, uninterested in any restoration or forgiveness. And God’s people love to have it so. See, sin sells, restoration is boring.
Rick,
I thought I made my case pretty well that the bible says, ‘rebuke in front of ALL’. Elders, members, baby Christians, non-believers, All, everyone, ALL. (let me know if you want more scriptural support).
Everyone needs to know that the fallen elder no longer represents Christ. Everyone.
If that seems cruel to you, it may be that you have never been in the position of being victimized by a church elder that and then found out that you were the 20th person to be wronged because he was not rebuked publicly. (I don’t know you and this is just an wild guess, so again, correct me if I am speaking out of turn). This command makes complete sense to me as I have been in that position.
This doctrine seems easier for powerless to accept than for the powerful.
But regardless of how right or wrong it feels to us, it is part of God’s design for church discipline. We don’t really get to make that call.
He even tells us why he wants it at the end of the verse, so that others will be afraid of sinning. It is a real world example to everyone else that sin has devastating consequences.
Rejoicing in the fall is a completely different subject. Anyone who is gleeful in another’s sin is in sin themselves:
Proverbs 24:16-18
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again,
But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Or the LORD will see it and be displeased,
And turn His anger away from him.
You are right is saying that no one should be gleeful in the downfall of even the most obviously sin loving, heresy teaching, completely apostate minister. No argument here.
But BOTH instructions are to be obeyed.
Ginger,
Actually, the use of “all” implies in front of the eklesia – the community. The use of ‘all’ is highly contextual in both the Hebrew and the Greek. What Paul teaches about public rebuking of elders is an exact mirror of 200+ years of practice in Judiasm prior to Christianity.
Overseers of the community were to be rebuked in front of all member of the community when caught in secret sin. There is no suggestion or implication that ‘all’ is larger than this, nor is there evidence that every time an overseer was publicly rebuked that letters describing the rebuke were sent to the Council in Jerusalem or to all of the surrounding churches.
Let’s not use the Bible to justify prurient sin, which is exactly what you’ve just done.
Rick,
I just thought of something. A test case for you if you will.
My husband and I left a church last year. A bible preaching mega church with a good reputation. We left because after spending 4 years in the “front of the house”, hearing the preaching and only seeing small red flags here and there, we finally got a look backstage and saw the shenanigans going on there.
Secret sin, decisions being made on financial grounds in contradiction to scripture, and lying to state government agencies. When we tried to undertake a Matthew 18 process, we were attacked and slandered so that no one would believe us if we tried to tell people what we were seeing. We addressed the senior pastor on the corruption in the church God had given him to shepherd, only to have him retaliate against us. My husband’s own family was lied to about us, leading to our estrangement from them.
We have spent almost two years just trying to biblically address the broken relationships that have resulted because the church directed some members (including family) not to talk to us about what we saw.
After leaving the church, we connected with people previously wronged by the pastorate and found out about more secret sin.
We have walked through a Matthew 18 process, filing formal complaints with the pastor and elders, which were ignored of course. No one in the community is allowed to talk to us, because they believe that they are obeying the authorities over them who have told them that we are the ‘fractious’ brother who has been warned twice.
This is not true. We went to them repeatedly, in person and in writing asking for correction on anything we were doing wrong, and they would not offer biblical correction, but lied to our community and told them they had and we had not listened. Just more lies in the dozens they have told.
So what do we do?
Thousands of people attend there. None of the people wronged before us made any public statements about the sin of the pastorate, so we were completely naive and got hammered. Yet unless we make a public statement about what we saw there, the niave will continue to file through the doors.
Our only vehicle for that is the internet.
Do we tell our story or do we not tell our story?
If we do, how do we do it?
Here is your chance to tell me how to do it the way you think God wants me to.
Chris,
Seems like a lot rises and falls on the correct interpretation of “ALL”. Can you direct me to some sources for your interpretation of this? I wanna do a further study.
Ginger
I said in my comment that they should be rebuked in front of the people they ministered to. Who is agruing otherwise? No one. The youth pastor in this particular case WAS rebuked before all and removed. So why was his plight rehearsed again to people who he wasn’t rebuked in front of. Did you hear his confession?
We take the account of the secular press and accept it as gospel. Rebuke the leader in front of the congegation, the one in which he offended. If you believe in national information on every offending leader, then give the name and specifics about the elder which you alluded and give it to CRN and SOL and encourage them to post it.
If that is what you believe God wants. Many who have no idea who you mean and who agree with a world wide spread of the information want to read about it. Twenty you say? Were they teenagers? What church or churches was the man an elder in? What is his wife’s name and does he have children? What type of offense did he commit? Where does he live now?
And if you agree with the process we are discussing, call some secular newspaper and give them all the details so they can print them all. You see, it is easy to outline a antiseptic formula for church discipline that includes a sweeping narrative of the sins and all the names and places, but should everyone follow it?
I was in a church in which the pastor offended once with another married woman. He was so convicted he confessed within a month to the elders. The next Sunday they stood him before the congregation and he was rebuked, forgiven, and removed from his office. That was ten years ago, would you like his name, the womans name, where they met and commited adultry, and where he is today?
Ginger – I have been somewhat sarcastic in order to help you see that many of us are totally in favor of the scenario I just described. What we are not in favor of is piling on without first hand knowledge of the people and circumstances involved. And I want you to know that the former pastor’s marriage was saved, his two children are serving Christ, they are ministering in another capacity in another state, but they were restored.
Should that information also be shared with the same newspaper that wrote about the affair in our town? They could care less. And I still wait for the day that other blogs give equal time to their borrowed information about fallen brethren. Have the blogs contact me, I will gladly share the praise of a restored brother in Christ.
The personal experience you had has happened to many people. A pastor is misusing funds but is so adept at hiding it he fools many of his supporters in the congregation, and with that you are made to be trouble makers. Every case is different, but many times you must leave it with God.
You must definitely avoid being obsessed with it and thereby allow bitterness to silently grow. Sometimes earthly offenses may never be adequately dealt with until eternity. You can be sure there are thousands of church mleaders who have commited all types of sins who died without ever being exposed. God is not mocked.
If they are caught, we must Biblically deal with them. If not, leave it with God.
Rick,
I did not read the youth pastor story, so please understand that my comments are not being applied to it what ever it was. I will go back and look for it.
Your pastor was repentant. He even turned himself in. He repented to his congregation, so his sin is none of my business. It is not fit for print. Yay for your pastor!
I am talking about unrepentant, “I want all the power and fame and none of the responsibility” sinning pastors.
Can I at least get an ‘amen’ that unrepentant sinning pastors and elders are dangerous?
As far as “piling on”, again, I thought I have made myself clear. I don’t know how to make myself more clear that I agree with you that anything that can be considered rejoycing in sin or mocking the fallen is verboten.
Yes, amen. You have made it much more clear. Thank you.
“The personal experience you had has happened to many people. A pastor is misusing funds but is so adept at hiding it he fools many of his supporters in the congregation, and with that you are made to be trouble makers. “
This happens often, agreed.
“Every case is different, but many times you must leave it with God. “
But I am not asking for commentary on “many times†I am asking for advice on this specific case. Give me biblical direction that I can follow to the letter.
“You must definitely avoid being obsessed with it and thereby allow bitterness to silently grow. “
Agreed. Bitterness is a condition of the heart. I am asking for instruction on my actions.
“Sometimes earthly offenses may never be adequately dealt with until eternity. “
Agreed, but this does not offer me instruction on what my personal responsibility before God is.
“You can be sure there are thousands of church leaders who have committed all types of sins who died without ever being exposed. God is not mocked.â€
Agreed.
“If they are caught, we must Biblically deal with them.â€
They have been caught. By me. What do I do with that? Do I have to obey 1 Tim 5:20? Why or why not?
“If not, leave it with God. “
Emotionally? Actionably? What is leaving it to God? Is it not acting, not telling anyone? If I do that am I in sin for not obeying 1 Tim 5:20?
Here you have criticized people for the way they have dealt with the unrepentant sin of elders. I am asking you for specific biblical instruction on how to please God with my actions.
Tell me what to do from scripture, and how to do it in a way that you would approve of in light of your post.
You have put yourself out as a Christian instructor. Instruct me.
Ginger,
It sounds like a terrible situation, but the sins of another doesn’t make sinning ok.
As for the context of all, all of the issues like this Paul dealt with were dealt with within the church he was writing to. So the Corinthian having sex with his (hopefully step) mother was written about to the Corinthian church. Even at a time when everyone was tolerating his sin.
Also, if there is law breaking going on, as you’ve said, I don’t see why you wouldn’t report it, especially in light of Romans 13.
I would never presume to give you specific advice about a circumstance about which I am ignorant. I will give you some suggestions.
If the offense is financial it is serious but not on the same moral level as adultery. Now if the elder is unrepentant, and if the other elders do not believe the offense, you must leave it with God. How many times will this same pastor be uncovered down the road?
If it is adultery it is serious but not on the same level as with a minor. I would go to another elder and share what you know and it then becomes that elders responsibility. In all these matters your husband must be your covering.
If it it immorality with a minor it is an extremely serious offense that is illegal. I would go to another elder and he is legally bound to expose it after going to the pastor himself.
I would ask another man who along with your husband can give guidance. If you are the only one in personal knowledge of the offense and there is no way to prove it, wait on the Lord. You will see how he deals with the man. Do not let the evil One attempt to destroy you by this man’s sin.
Tim,
Yay! Some actionable advice!
I did report the law breaking I witnessed. The state investigated and the staff had someone pose as a key witness to be interviewed (The actual witness had moved three states away), so our charges were considered to be unfounded.
When the investigator called to tell me the results, and I informed her that they had switched witnesses on her, she was annoyed with me. She had been told that I was a ‘trouble maker’ so she was not eager to hear what I had to say.
She did say I could refile another complaint.
Do you think I should? The church knows that I know they committed fraud in the investigation, and I am guessing they already have another lie in place ready to go for when the state shows back up.
How many times do I insist they go back and investigate the perjury?
Also, the church is really, really rich and influential, so in the eyes of the world, why believe little old me over a big wealthy church full of famous people?
Ginger,
If you want to study the Greek as it pertains to the church, you might start with the word ekklesia, which almost always refers to the local church/community, and not the all-encompassing church. For instance, if you look at Revelation 1:4, John (actually, Jesus) is addressing a letter to the seven churches.
If you examine the use of ekklesia, you can see that it is used both to designate the local church and the church as a whole, and that it is the context which determines the usage. In the case of church discipline, Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 18 is centered on the local church body. When Paul later uses this process for instructions for disciple of overseers, he is teaching Timothy the existing process taught by Jesus, and already in effect in the synagogues of Palestine and Asia Minor.
Additionally, each church is locally governed, with questions of doctrine (in the early church) directed to the available apostles. If your suggestion of the encompassing meaning of “all” were to be correct, the proper way to do this would have been to communicate to the apostle/bishop over your region, but Paul does not suggest this – there would be no other means of distributing the message of censure to ALL other churches. Were Paul teaching something different than common practice in the Jewish Synagogue & Jewish Christian churches, you would expect him to be more explicit in spelling out the difference (for instance, by using the term “all of the churches” or “all of the world”).
Rick,
Yes this is all me and my husband. And we have gotten advice from 6 pastors so far.
I want your advice.
There are 5 different pastors and elders, all in different sin. Financial, ethical, legal, lying. Reporting one sinning elder to another is what got us slandered in the first place. My husband and I have gone down every possible avenue.
The only question left is to speak publicly or not.
Which is it?
and “leave it to God” is not an answer from scripture. It is your opinion.
Give me verses.
Do I obey 1 Timothy 5:20 or not? If not, why not? If so, how?
Chris,
Got it. I will dig into it and check that all out.
So for the time being let’s go with your interpretation of “all”.
Read our dilemma that I have stated above and tell me how, in this modern day, my husband and I can properly obey 1 Tim 5:20 in dealing with the corruption of this local church.
And keep in mind guys, I am really looking for advice. I am not just spit balling here. We need direction on how to please God in this.
Ginger,
I think you have been faithful to 1 Timothy 5:20. You have rebuked them, in fact, you’ve gone to greater lengths than many in your situation would.
But I don’t see any place in scripture where Christians are held accountable by non-Christians. In that same place in Corinthians Paul says that not even the pagans do what you tolerate, so he could easily have made a public spectacle of that situation to bring the church in Corinth to heel. But he doesn’t. Perhaps if you could provide a single instance where a sin issue is handled outside of the local church it would help to clarify matters.
Ever notice how quick we are to judge after the fact, but how much we don’t want to have to be involved in the responsibility of the decision making process?
Soliciting instruction.
Anyone?
In a situation such as you described there are only two options – go public or let God have it (which is a Biblical answer)
If you cannot give it up you must go public or you will haltbetween two opinions. Count the cost and do what you feel led by faith, but if you go public it will cost you and maybe not end as you had hoped.
Tim.
Thanks.
But how have I fulfilled Tim? By reporting to the elders?
The state has no responsibility for the sin, only for the law. I have only brought the acts that I witnessed to the attention of the authorities. The others that I heard about I have not.
Is my civic responsibility fulfilled if I have orally told the investigator that the church committed fraud and perjury, but do not follow up with a written report?
Ginger,
Yes you have by both of those things. The scriptures do not provide for what you are preparing, either in command or in practice. The situation may not be resolved as it ought to have been, but you’ve discharged your responsibility.
Just after the verse you quoted is this verse: The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them.
This may be a case where the individuals reach judgment before their sins do.
Ginger,
I think you are likely at the point where petitioning and prayer are the best answer to your question, as civic responsibility is not fully discussed in the Bible.
My wife and I went through something similar in a church a few years ago, where the elders were part of the corruption (which did not break any civil/criminal law, though), and Matthew 18 was the punch line of a sorry joke. In the end, those friends who knew us well knew exactly what was going on. Some left the same time we did. Others stayed to try to correct the problem. We stayed as long as we could, but in the end left without trying to move into the land of divisiveness, where we would likely create conflict which would dislodge young Christians without impacting the system of corruption in place. We decided that all we could do was leave it in the Lord’s hands completely and ‘dust our feet off’.
It was the best decision we made.
Ginger – as preacher for 30 years let me tell you what I hear with love. You are somewhat obsessed with the situation. I do not believe you can make a Spiritual decision while you are so emotionally invested.
When Tim suggested going the authorities you gladly received that, but when I made a suggestion that you might give it to God you rejected it as not an answer. This has a hold on you.
These men will not get away with anything before God, but it has the potential to have you internally for a long time. Be careful how you proceed, if you will never feel right unless you report it then do it quickly, ortherwise you will die a slow spiritual death.
Tim,
I am not sure I am on board with you, but I will take this and test it, and use it as a test in the decision making process. I will really go over verse 24. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Rick,
With all due respect. That is horrible advice.
We are to obey God’s commandments regardless of the personal cost. I am not to make decisions on feelings, or on what I ‘hope’ will happen. I am not to ‘hope’ in any specific outcome. I am to Hope in the Lord only.
I am to obey His instruction and let Him bring the results he will.
Your lack of ability to give me biblical instruction (you have cited no scripture in your advice) shows me that you are not someone whose advice should be solicited. So I am with drawing my invitation.
I will however leave it out there for anyone else who is reading this. My email address is on my web site. If you have BIBLICAL instruction to offer on this, I am all ears.
For those of you who decline to offer advice from scripture, including you Rick, I don’t want to hear any criticism if we do end up going with our present interpretation of 1 Tim 5:20 and publish our account somewhere.
Signing off.
wait… that was not ready to be sent yet as Rick added something. hold on.
One other piece of advise that you probably will dismiss, let your husband lead.
I think this is the important thing to understand it. Look at it with a long term view. We’re told that teachers will be held to a higher account, Ezekiel 34 speaks in even stronger language about abusive shepherds that I think applies to the church today. They’re not getting away with anything, even if they remain pastors of the biggest church in creation for teh rest of their lives.
Ginger,
My suggestion to you, beyond prayer and petition would be to go to the Psalms, which has helped me quite a bit when I have found myself heavily and emotionally invested in a situation.
The ones on my heart at the moment at Psalm 139 and the hallel (Psalm 113 – 118), which Jesus would have sung with his disciples the night before his crucifixion.
Rick,
Wow… what a presumptuous statement. But let’s go with it for the moment.
So for the sake of argument, let’s say I am obsessed. Your advice is that I don’t try to find the scriptural answer to our dilemma until I don’t care about the situation any more?
But how do I put this whole episode to bed if I have not fulfilled my biblical duty? And how am I do fulfill my biblical duty with out soliciting advice from scripture on the scripture in question?
And when you have decided to make bold assertions in on your blog about people who do such things, is it not a wise thing to solicit biblical advice from someone who sees things differently than I do and see if they can change my mind using scripture and reason?
Chris and Tim, thank you for the input. It has been helpful
Rick, I will work on caring less about wolves who devour the sheep.
Also…. “leave it to God” is exactly the advice that the corrupt pastors gave us when they were trying to talk us into not reporting them to the authorities.
I don’t think I will be visiting your blog again.
Ginger
Chris,
The Pslams are great and have sustained us through this.
We have pretty much recovered from the spiritual abuse, and grieved the lost relationships at this point.
We just need to know our responsibility to report or not so we can end this chapter.
Thanks again.
Ginger,
I was a pastor in a mega-church once. I was thrown out by the senior pastor for many of the same reasons you mentioned. We were slandered, lied to and lied about, and had sermons preached about our rebelliousness and divisiveness.
We lost our church, our income, our house (the mainse), our friends (since they chose to believe the spin doctors), and our reputations in the at city, although we had done nothing wrong. That church continues to thrive and people idolize the pastor (although he has since done the same thing to at least five other pastors).
What should you do? We felt strongly that we should not resort to the low level of ethics that the elders and pastors had gone to, and followed the example of Jesus, which for us meant to keep our mouths shut (which made sense since nobody would believe us anyway), learn how to walk in ongoing forgiveness, and blessing those that cursed us.
The internet is an option, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Not because you wouldn’t be telling the truth, but because you’ll be feeding resentment and unforgiveness in yourselves, and I know from experience that this is a real battle. As difficult as it is, sometimes you just have to let it go and walk away, and trust that God isn’t unaware of what’s going on, and that He will act.
Tim,
I am all over that. At first it made me releaved, then it made me scared for them.
The realization that they will have to stand alone before God and answer brought into clear focus that I will have to stand alone before God and answer too.
If he says, “Ginger, I told you to tell everyone about the sin you saw, and because you didn’t, these thousand people were harmed. Why didn’t you do it”, I can’t just answer, “Well God of the Universe that knows all and is the embodiment of Truth, I just felt lead not to”.
Bye guys,
Ginger
Ginger,
Your story is hard to hear. I know of a similar story about a friend’s church and she is torn as to how to handle it (adultry involving high-ups in the church).
What I see, after all the steps you have taken following scripture and the law of the nation, is that you have two options:
1. Start a blog and start naming names and details and turn into just another one of hundres of people who were in the same situation doing just that and now seeming to live up to the wrongful title of “troublemakers.” Such things tend to get carried away and after a while the people seem become obsessed with adding more information. Also, it would be wrong to blast that info to the entire world, which is kind of what this original post was about.
2. Robbymac’s suggestion: let it go. It’s not a matter of not standing up for righteousness, and as annoying as the “Sunday School” answer of “God knows, and He will right this wrong, there is no secret sin to Him”, it really is the truth.
I would add, not only let it go, but be more forceful. Throw it off. Just get it out of your life and give it up to God in prayer. I don’t see how you and your husband could do anything else humanly possible; you’ve done far more than I would have. Robbymac was right: let it go. Throw it off.
It’s more a matter of you knowing the truth, you being honest before God, and still taking the beating. God is not missing any part of this story in your life. There is a millstone waiting for people who beat down and hurt His children like this.
This kind of junk in church leadership angers me a great deal. It is the ultimate abuse of believers.
Is there one among us who haven’t felt as Ginger does? I think not. Let us pray for her and her family even as we read this prayer.
Lord Jesus, we all stand identfying with Ginger and her plight. Many of us surely did not react in accordance with the advise we now give, so we claim no self righteousness. We pray for Ginger and her family that the Spirit of God would minister to her and her family far and above our poor words. Let her know supernaturally Your love, and impart unto her and her husband the peace that passes all understanding.
She is our sister and we grive with her.
Amen.
Rick,
Came back to copy and paste some of the advice here in a document so we could use it in our decision making process.
Only to read your insult that you don’t believe I will follow your advice to let my husband lead, and then follow it up with a prayer for me.
Seriously?
You insult them and then pray for them?
Is there some comment I have made that somehow leads you to believe that I do not follow my husband? Man you presume all over the place.
For the record, scripture says my husband is my immediate pastor and I am in sin if I do not follow his biblical direction. I am way on board with that.
Brother, you need to take a look at the disrespect that you are showing to those you are offering advice to. You have made judgments about me with out any information to base it on.
I accepted Tim’s advice and not yours, because he used scripture and you used feelings.
There is nothing loving about implying I am in sin against my husband when you absolutely nothing about my marriage.
I think an apology is in order.
Amen.
Amen.
I apologize.
I will add also, that this may simply be a matter of trust. Trusting God to resolve the situation and fulfill the promsies he’s made to protect his people who are still there.
Thank you.
And God is gonna do, what ever He is gonna do. I trust that.
We just wanna get our part as right as we can.
“Comment from Chris L
Time: August 25, 2007, 2:38 pm
Ginger,
Actually, the use of “all†implies in front of the eklesia – the community. The use of ‘all’ is highly contextual in both the Hebrew and the Greek. What Paul teaches about public rebuking of elders is an exact mirror of 200+ years of practice in Judiasm prior to Christianity.
Overseers of the community were to be rebuked in front of all member of the community when caught in secret sin. There is no suggestion or implication that ‘all’ is larger than this, nor is there evidence that every time an overseer was publicly rebuked that letters describing the rebuke were sent to the Council in Jerusalem or to all of the surrounding churches.”
So I looked up the verse in the greek and the word “eklesia” (The Church, The called out) is not used anywhere in this verse. The word used is the greek “pas” which apparently litterally means “all”.
The verse in Greek (click on words to see English translation)
http://www.greekbible.com/index.php
Here is another
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=5&verse=20&version=KJV#20
Here is the write up from Strongs on the word “pas”
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&Version=kjv
So I don’t see where unrepentant elders are only supposed to be called out in the church and not in the community.
Ginger