Yes, it is overkill as usual. However, I could not attend that church. I believe a pastoral calling comes with some unique sacrifices that will allow him to seek God’s face in such a way that he can be used to draw people to Christ, both saved and unsaved.

That is why a full time preacher has no secular employment so as to clear his day timer for prayer and the ministry of the word. All of us recognize and may even still have some fondness for some secular music we once were absorbed with, but the thought of a pastor in the middle of a hedonistic group of borderline idol worshipers listening to non-edifying lyrics and setting an example for young people to follow is in my opinion unseemly.

The young people may not like Styx, but maybe they can get front row seats to Slayer, Ozzy, or some foul mouthed rap singer. Listening privately to the albums are not enough, we must return to the pot filled rooms and listen to decadent lyrics? In an atmosphere like that, I would feel so burdened for the lost people around me as I recalled my own days of darkness that I could get no enjoyment. How could I be there to feed my soul on such things instead of coming to throw out a gospel lifeline to those who God would lead me to?

The bar should be lived higher among God’s preachers who must be the examples. The constant negativity of Slice sometimes obscures the times that a constructive point is made. Many preachers today can curse, smoke, drink, enjoy nudity in movies, listen to lyrics encouraging sin, and live an overall unspectacular Christian life of worldly pleasure. We should not neglect the fruits of the Spirit for sure, but there are things that are weights that compromise our witness both before men and before God. Not legalism, just sensitivity to sanctification (whatever that is today).

No one can accuse me of not having a sense of humor or of scourging everyone who holds some different doctrinal views as I, but there are Biblical teachings that, however misused in the past and present, are still beneficial and edifying to our walk before Christ.

Sorry, Tim, but that preacher is not one I would want to hear expound upon the glorious privilege of living a sacrificial life of service for Christ. The Lord has put a difference between thee and the Egyptians.

Apples and oranges, Chris. The Lion King is in a different league and Rich Mullins to my knowledge wasn’t a pastor and no ones personal life is the standard, it should be the Word. However, the singers in this generation should attempt to be a witness to the young people.

So Chris, do you have any guidelines or standards for pastors?

Our church has a number of guidelines for our staff, which go beyond what would be biblically expected. This is primarily for the reasons you’ve given, primarily that (for right or wrong) people will judge them by a different standard.

I won’t give too many specifics, as I don’t know what liberty I have in divulging them. For instance, until recently, they weren’t allowed to purchase anything alcoholic (even for cooking purposes). Additionally, while some may have tattoos, they are not to be visible in public situations. As for movies and concerts, I don’t know of any hard and fast guidelines, though I know there have been discussions on the subject.

If you are asking me personally what guidelines I would give to pastors, I would say that you have to realize that people from your church and unchurched people from your community will always be watching, and that because of their failings, not necessarily your own, you will have to maintain a higher level of adherence to legalistic rules out of love for them.

However, it is also important to know your own flock and your community well enough to know what additional standards you should hold yourself to, and not try to use the standards that the Christians in the Reformed church around the corner would write for you.

As concerts go, I am a little torn. In my own church and community, I’m not sure anyone would have a second thought about my minister attending a secular concert – save Marilyn Manson or similar groups who go out of their way to be anti-Christian – especially the one in question, which (if I read the reviews correctly) is primarily attended by 40-somethings and resemble a football crowd moreso than a “pot-filled room”. But each community is different, as I think that the one I grew up in – out in the middle of a corn field, 45 miles from the nearest real city – probably would have had issues with concert-going.

So – with the internet, if something is acceptable in one community (the one you live in), but unacceptable in another one (say, in a small suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin), where does the “meat and idols” play out? Locally or globally?

As a youth pastor soon to be an M.DIV recipient (which somehow qualifies me as some sorta expert???) I firmly believe that I’m a missionary to the community in which God placed me.

That is, I must be knowledgable about the culture in which I’m called. Just as one who goes to a foreign country is called to know the languages, practices, and taboos. If I build a wall so high around myself for protection I eventually lose all effectiveness to speak to the culture at large.

There is a vast difference between indulging in behavior because you need to satisfy some (unbiblical) desires that you have and understanding the culture.

Personally (which according to God is the only person I can apply my standards to) I recognize my weaknesses and I guard myself appropiately (Proverbs 4:23)

phil,

I believe our elders do, as well, for exactly the reason specified. It is not an easy thing, and the discussion about ‘priesthood of all believers’ (to my understanding, though second hand) was there, as well. However, it was the immature believer that they were most concerned with, and trying to find a reasonable place where ‘freedom in Christ’ didn’t impinge upon ‘causing another to stumble’.

Rick,

I do understand your point of view… and respect it… and have struggled on both sides.

The real issue though is whether one is free to watch a movie… and the balance of if it is beneficial or could cause a brother or sister to stumble. Paul states he would rather eat vegetables than make a brother stumble yet falls short in actually saying that all must eat vegetables … I think it was that if he stated that no one should ever eat meat sacrificed to idols that it would become a ‘works” thing. I also see that Paul clearly left it up to a personal choice that is in all freedom yet to always consider the “other” whom you could accidentally harm. It is about placing others before oneself.

Saying that, all entertainment be it movies, a concert, a book, or whatever is about being self entertained. The only danger is that one lives life as if that is all there is… just entertainment that makes ‘me” feel good. Yet, I know that we have all indulged in a “good” book that may not have been pure… there may have been violence, sex or what ever… even if it be really played down.

The idea of a “higher standard” is about making sure what is being taught is in line with scripture…. And I see that like wine, that a “pastor” live by of have a higher standard of “holiness” (?) I presume… (Which to me is a gift and not a position of authority as that falls more inline with the papal hierarchical understanding of what the offices are rather than what the scripture calls simply “gifts” –being the people- that are to build up and edify others). On the topic of Holiness I view that God made me holy so I am not sure I can better that by doing anything else myself.

Bottom line is that I see that as we live by the Law of Love and love on another, we will take a look at what we are free to do and see that it be looking out for the best of others.

In that though I am very choosy as to what movies I attend, not because of a higher standard, but because so many are just not well made movies… and that means a waste of money. I do have a Netflixs account though and sometimes wish I could have gotten another movie instead of the one I received! LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

Keith – you have too much time on your hands! Just kidding.

Chris P.,
Well, if he thinks going to see Def Leppard, Styx, and Foreigner is going to make him relevant or cool, someone needs to tell him he’s a couple decades late.

Chris P:
- Copy and paste comments to Word.
- Edit > Select All.
- Tools > Word Count.
It’s that simple.

I’m with you. Click on my name. The rest of you probably shouldn’t–it’ll just get you wound up.

“I would not want a pastor that openly admits he drinks if I had a son who was battling alcoholism. And yes, the board of elders are equal and should strive to adhere to some unwritten standards of separation.”

What about a pastor who openly flaunts his children’s existence when church members struggle with sexual addiction?

I ask this not with mean-spiritedness, Rick, but seriously. When are our lines too rigid? are we able to allow our pastors to be humans, or must they be somewhere between God and humanity, sort of “a little LESS lower than the angels?” I ask this as a pastor, someone who struggles with the lines myself. I’m taking my wife to a Loreena McKennitt concert…a canadian who sometimes sings about pagans. Is this ok? even if i have young people struggling with Wicca? I posted on my blog that i listen, every once in awhile, to metallica. Must i seek out bad “christian” imitations of this music or is it allowed? i hate even having to ask these things.

blessings all,
mike

I agree with Keith (wouldn’t follow him to the bathroom). Also, good point with the word count Keith. What a mess.

“And the question I’m left with is: why are you guys looking for people to follow to the bathroom? ”

Again, I love it! And this comment is just a nod to Tim’s humor so please do not add it to the word count.

Keith, by the way – I loved your post on How to Fix Your Church (http://fivepts.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-to-fix-your-church.html).

Paul:
You’re right. My mistake. Old habit’s are hard to break. The church we used to attend was really good about counting people twice (one’s that attended the early service then stayed and worked in the nursery–or other area–during the second service). Sometimes we had more people attending than we had on our membership roll! PTL!!!

Chris,
There are some troubling aspects of the whole thing, I agree, but I don’t think the way to react is hysteria (speaking of Def Leppard). I think in general, Christians are too mistrustful of scientists and rather than actual offer informed opinions, they get off on things like the Nephilim and ape-men. In a way, I think there is an unspoken fear among Christians, too, that hybrids like this will offer some validation for evolution.

Also, from what I understand from my wife who actually knows a thing or too about microbiology, the claims in this article are probably pretty dubious.

Look everbody I think Phil just called Gary Lamb an Ape Man. Just kidding….

Maybe pastors should quit blogging about their personal lives entirely. It seems that some readers are hanging on every word they say just looking for a way to criticize them.