PERSECUTION! or just picking a fight?
A recent letter from a Slice Reader was posted at the site today. He attended the festival that Luis Palau was sponsoring in Nebraska. I knew it was a bit slanted when the author wrote that he told his son only these three types of people would be there
#1 True Christians who didn’t realize what was missing in this festival and what was wrong with the philosophy behind it.
#2 Professing Christians who would someday hear, “Depart, I never knew you†unless they could be awakened and truly converted.
#3 The Un-religious who simply came for the world class carnival atmosphere and who, as Ingrid says, “… Don’t mind if a little Jesus is drizzled on top.â€
I will definitely give him the benefit of a doubt that he forgot the fourth and fifth types of people that were more than likely there
#4 True Christians who probably spent hours in prayer and hard work on the event so that they could attract an audience to share the gospel with. Their ultimate goal is not to entertain, but to see people saved
#5 The lost and broken who have yet to find an answer for their life. People that are in need of a savior and will probably encounter an opportunity to find it there.
after all, the Luis Palau festival website says
Luis Palau gives multiple presentations of the Good News and calls to commitment to Jesus Christ. The Gospel is proclaimed throughout the festival grounds, through action sport and children’s evangelists, as well as through thousands of local Christians in attendance. More than 71,000 Americans have made public decisions for Jesus Christ at our U.S. festivals.
The man and his son were removed from the grounds for passing out tracts that read
not only is God good, but He is Holy. Yes, God loves them, but they are condemned already because of sin. Jesus died for them, but even the devil “believes†and is not saved, they must therefore examine themselves by the law to see their great need, then, “repent toward God, and put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.â€
and objecting to remove his sandwich board sign (after being asked to simply take it down) that read:
Jesus said: Go and Sin No More
Conditional forgiveness
Limited time offer
Read the Bible
www.consumingfirefellowship.org
The love and grace of God
Will either make you holy
Or cast you into hell.
Fear God- Jesus
He says this in his letter
Within a minute or two, a bicycle mounted policeman arrived (I don’t know if the 3 arrived together or first one and then the other two) and without either asking my name, what I was doing, ordering me to leave, or reading me my rights, he began to handcuff me as if he himself worked for Palau’s goons and took orders from them. He wouldn’t answer any questions, but ordered me to lace my fingers together behind my back and then asked where my I.D. was and whether “anything sharp†was in my pocket with my wallet. (sure officer, I always keep a blowfish and a porcupine in there to thwart pickpockets) (I didn’t actually say that but would have if I’d thought of it)
I think his letter made enough commentary for this article. It is sad what these guys are willing to do to make their point.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Judging by the language he used in his letter, I think he was out looking for a fight, and I doubt we got the whole story from his letter.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Nathan,
All else aside, do you see something wrong with this message:
“not only is God good, but He is Holy. Yes, God loves them, but they are condemned already because of sin. Jesus died for them, but even the devil “believes†and is not saved, they must therefore examine themselves by the law to see their great need, then, “repent toward God, and put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”
August 1st, 2007 at 5:21 pm
It is impossible to fully expound the doctrinal issues of God and His salvation to an unbeliever. It must be simple but explain the commitment necessary. The idea that thousands are led in a prayer and immediately assured of salvation has proven to be as dangerous as it is beneficial.
We are left with praying that God will use shallow gospel presentations while attempting to lovingly share our concerns. Sometimes the “lovingly share our concerns” gets the short straw.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Amy,
You continue your theme of assuming the worst about who you’re writing about. First, why would you think Nathan would disagree with that statement “all else aside” to the point where you feel compelled to question him.
But secondly, there’s no such thing as “all else aside”, because of the way they communicated that message its not simply communicating that “God is good, but he is holy”, it is communicating “you are unholy for what you’re doing here”, and Nathan has already posted what was actually going on there was far from unholy.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Someone needs to close tag the bold. I tried to fix it but failed.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Did you visit the site? http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/
That’s exactly what I want a nonChristian to see (sarcasm).
Do they really need to see images of the grim reaper? Here’s some history of the Grim Reaper.
Origin of the scythe:
The portrayal of the scythe originates from a Hellenistic etymological misconception relating the god Cronus with time. Cronus was a harvest deity who is often shown with a sickle, which he also uses to castrate his father Uranus. Etymologists from the Hellenistic period erroneously correlated Cronus with time due to the similarity with the prefix chrono-. From this mistake, Cronus was often depicted as Father Time, carrying a scythe, which is a harvesting tool related to the sickle. The characters of Father Time and the Grim Reaper frequently overlap, leading to the common portrayal of the Grim Reaper brandishing a scythe.
Great, so yet again, it’s ok to use PAGAN Ancient Greek imagery.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I sorted out most of the bold tags. At least it doesn’t spill outside of the post itself. Its a brutal collection of HTML.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Their site is brutal. Both in content and design. It makes me want to run away from them and I’m a Christ-follower errrrr… Christian.
It reminds me of a guy that used to come to the OU campus that went by the name Brother Jed. He did more damage to the gospel than he did good.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Wow, so those are the kind of people that Ingrid wants to align herself with now. That’s just sad.
We have a group like that comes on campus every now and then. It really just saddens me to see the name of Christ associated with those types of groups.
August 1st, 2007 at 6:02 pm
if you look at Kevin O Pulvers site he is semi or full pelegian.He shows up at slice when Ingrid has a article about someone is struggling with porn.there were some trying to reason with him but Ingrid shut comments down and said we were attacking him.He is what can be described as a true Pelegian.Not the stuff Ken calls Pelegian.Why do Ingrid and Ken have sympathys for Christian perfectionism?It sure is not calvinism.maybe the thing that binds slice togather is angry,loud,self righteousness.Just a thought.
Opus
August 1st, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Tim,
“You continue your theme of assuming the worst about who you’re writing about”
Honestly I don’t know what “assuming the worst is” to Nathan. Maybe “assuming the worst” to him would be thinking that he agreed with that statement.
Nathan selectively edited the article. Since he left that part in, I assumed it was for a reason. I wondered if he had a problem with that message. You can assume whatever you want, I am actually trying to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt, and INSTEAD of assuming that he finds that message offensive, ask him if he does.
August 1st, 2007 at 6:38 pm
By the way, I don’t think that Slice should post something like this without some evaluation of it.
From what I understand, no one at SLICE is KJV only. Noone at SLICE would agree with the doctrinal statement-regarding baptism of the Holy Spirit (at least I don’t think so).
Was what this guy did illegal? If so, and the guy knows it, he should treat the policeman coming after him with respect. Christians who choose to disobey the law need to expect to suffer the consequences.
August 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Tim,
“You can assume whatever you want, I am actually trying to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt” is also apparent in my comment under the previous article “Counter Culture.”
August 1st, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Two things struck me about this article.
1. The guy went to a private event and then threw a hissy fit when he wasn’t allowed to do whatever he wanted. Every other church there paid to be a part of it, and they agreed to live by certain rules. Are there no unsaved people where this gentlemen lives for him to evangelize?
2. It cracks me up that the “Amen Chorus” goes after his doctrinal statement.
August 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pm
This is very much like when Ray Comfort is open air preaching and a Christian walks up trying to “help.” He very much discourages that because he is in a process of witnessing and does not want someone to damage the process. The “help” would be unwelcome.
This guy seems to go beyond that. He went looking for error rather than watching the conference for himself.
August 1st, 2007 at 7:31 pm
He was on private property for that event. In other words admission to the event meant you would agree to abide by the event sponsors rules.
August 1st, 2007 at 7:43 pm
I continue to sense the effervescent relish with which Ingrid and others exhibit when finding fault. The laothing self righteousness is palatable and extremely sad. Notice - never a call for prayer, never a call to fast, and never any compassion for anyone who doesn’t tow the line.
August 1st, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Joe,
The funny thing about the person complaining about this guy’s statement of faith is that he quotes the Westminster Confession to prove himself instead of the Bible. I don’t necessarily have anything against the WCF, but it is funny to me to see people use it in that manner. Sometimes I think people value doctrines and commentaries more than actual Scripture.
August 1st, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Christians can stop sinning completely?
http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Stop%20Sinning.htm
Consuming Fire hates Christmas too:
http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Christmas1.htm
http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Christmas2.htm
Though you may insist that you do not worship the Christmas tree, you cannot deny that the whole concept is pagan! Then too, we must mention the “dark presence” many have felt when in a dimly lit room with a Christmas tree. Not merely the overactive imaginations of “spooky” individuals, bringing these forbidden objects into your home does indeed invite in another presence also-the spirits associated with the rites and rituals of the ancient pagan fertility groves, in which the evergreens played an integral part. Commenting on this very thing, one researcher said, “The phenomenon of evergreen inside a house has a presence far beyond its festive meaning. Innocent enough in a modern room, or in any room fully lit for the occasions, it may have quite another effect in a house not brightly lit; holly in clumps at picture level-above you, in fact-can frown darkly, gather shadows, appear to contain some sort of suspended life. Similarly, the presence of even a medium-sized Christmas tree, unlit, stands like a personage. Such impressions are not consciously welcomed . . . but they are part of the same thing, and of a strangeness to the house with all its new reflections of tinseled glitter, its mirrors freshly alive. Nowadays few people may notice this in the crowded time before Christmas; but it can still be felt in the quieter evenings that follow. It is a powerful time, full of ancient apprehensions. Alongside the brightness . . .there rides a darkness of old instincts.”
Toooo funny!!!
August 1st, 2007 at 8:23 pm
He also says it’s ok for preachers to punch people:
http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Non-Resistance.htm
I’m sorry but this guy is off his rocker.
August 1st, 2007 at 8:29 pm
My mistake, he doesn’t promote violence from street preachers.
August 1st, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Alcohol is always bad, according to Consuming Fire. Jesus didn’t turn water into wine either, he turned it into grape juice.
http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Deadliest%20Drug.htm
Perhaps someone should tell them that grape juice was invented by Dr. Welch. Before that, it didn’t exist.
August 1st, 2007 at 8:59 pm
FYI - I’ve fixed the formatting - there were a gazillion Word tags embedded in the text. I’ve taken to pasting into ‘Notepad’ (to remove formatting) and then cutting from ‘Notepad’ to paste into the GUI, in which I then re-format things.
There’s a LOT fewer problems that way…
August 1st, 2007 at 10:16 pm
I wonder if some of the folks at SLICE who made positive comments about this person took the time to look at what he really believes. The consuming fire beliefs are the polar opposite of easy-believism. If I believed everything they said (in the “salvation” section, especially,) I would be living in constant fear.
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:43 am
Tim~
Boomer Sooner! I remember with great sadness trying to explain to my students that “Brother Jed” was not what Jesus was about. He really made it difficult, especially for the young women he verbally assulted.
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:03 am
Amy,
“Jesus said: Go and Sin No More
Conditional forgiveness
Limited time offer
Read the Bible”
I see a few things wrong with this…
1. Yes Jesus said this, yet, He was also the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the WORLD. In that the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross was enough to take away our sins. We sin no more because we are place into Christ Jesus and in Him there is no sin… we are clothed in Christ.
2. “Conditional forgiveness” is WORKS! Plain and simple as I keep stating over and over that SoL and Ken Silva keep pushing works righteousness instead of Grace… they see forgiveness this way and so negate the very Grace they act like they believe in.
The last to are very “cultural” if you ask me which leads to the hypocrisy that these people seem to be blind to.
Be Blessed,
iggy
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:09 am
Sandy,
Was “Brother Jed†married to “Sister Cindy” the “disco queen”?
The best line I heard was from them… “if a girl puts a cigarette in her mouth, she’ll put anything there!”
It was fun as she gave her testimony and she would go, “I was a disco queen!” and everyone would say disco queen in unison!
I asked them how to get saved… and she called me a marshmallow! LOL!
Be Blessed,
iggy
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:54 am
Amy!!!!
LOL!
“I wonder if some of the folks at SLICE who made positive comments about this person took the time to look at what he really believes. The consuming fire beliefs are the polar opposite of easy-believism. If I believed everything they said (in the “salvation†section, especially,) I would be living in constant fear.”
I agree wholeheartedly! LOL!
That is the thing about being a true “discernment” ministry… that one can discern who they endorse is teaching correct doctrine…
It seems (again as i have seen this before) that Ingrid will endorse one if they have the same enemy… which is a very sad thing.
And the reason we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES as Jesus instructed.
(Amy, I will add, I do accept you as you are even when we do not agree… ) = )
Be Blessed,
iggy
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:32 am
Matt B - “Perhaps someone should tell them that grape juice was invented by Dr. Welch. Before that, it didn’t exist.”
Nothing to do with the question of Christians and alcohol, but I have never read that statement before. Where did you get this historical footnote? If you just press grapes and don’t let the juice ferment isn’t that grape juice? Just curious.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:41 am
HJ,
I don’t think that Dr. Welch necessarily “invented” grape juice, but he is credited as the first to pasteurize it to stop it from fermenting. He was a big proponent of the temperance movement. Really, before his, I don’t anyone really sold or marketed just “grape juice”. If it was pressed, it was pretty much going to be used to produce wine. Here’s a wiki link.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:15 am
Phil- Ok, I’ll agree with that.
According to wiki, the original grape juice was sold as “Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.”
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:23 am
In any case, pasteurized grape juice was not invented by a Reformed Christian. Dr. Welch was a, (gasp!), Methodist (read: Arminian).
Since I only drink milk from Christian cows, it looks like I’ll have to find another source for my communion beverage of choice.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:36 am
Matt,
It just proves how people are willing to jump through all sorts of hoops and ignore facts to try to make the Bible say something it doesn’t. I have people try to explain to me that the wine that Jesus drank was non-alcoholic, but it seems like they have to really stretch to prove it. It’s an odd thing to draw lines about to me.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:29 am
I am not really sure where to start from so I will just list my opinions on this piece and the doctrine espoused by this individual in no particular order.
1. Tracts and open air preaching are perfect examples of evangelism. On private property or closed location where tickets are purchased to enter, this is in bad taste. Tracts, maybe. Open air and especially the sandwich board, leave it in the car. Well, throw the sandwich board in the trash.
2. On private property or closed location, if they ask you to leave, leave. If they ask you to stop, stop. You have little to no rights in this scenario, and the police were absolutely right to arrest this man.
3. I missed the memo where it says we stop sinning. Paul battled sin constantly through his life. But that is a sign that we are saved because we are battling, not rolling over and playing dead. The Bible says if you say you have no sin, you are a liar.
4. Christmas. In my opinion, it is all about what takes center stage. If your celebration has a tree and presents, but the focus is Jesus and the gift of salvation he purchased, keep it up. If you focus is on presents and some fat guy in a red suit, time to evaluate priorities.
5. Alcohol. Drunkenness is sin. No question. The occasional drink, ok. Christians that say that when the Bible speaks of wine in a good way it is grape juice, they are being intellectually dishonest. We cannot and should not teach for doctrines the commandments of men, and that is what this man is doing here.
In closing, let me say this. I believe when we do go out and actively evangelize, we must have that proper balance of law and grace. If a person is humbled by the law, give them grace. If the person refuses to humble themselves, either continue with the law or move on. All law and no grace equals legalism, all grace no law equals easy believism. There must be a balance. We must be willing to tell people the hard truth about themselves and where they stand with God. This is the most loving thing we can do. Once they see where they stand, the Good News of the Cross will be that indeed to them, Good News.
By His Grace and For His Glory,
Ricky
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:31 am
Iggy,
As far as your surprise that I would make such a statement, the philosophy that enabled me to make that statement is the same philosophy that leads me to be on the receiving end of so much criticism here. I think it’s important to dig into what people believe, not just accept everything because a person wears a certain label, such as “Christian.” In Kevin’s case it doesn’t take that much digging to get to the heart of what’s wrong, since he has everything spelled out. In some of the issues I look at here, it takes a lot of digging because it is very hard to determine what people’s core beliefs actually are, or it’s hard to see how they can be biblical even though “everyone” is insisting that they are.
The interesting thing is that, although Kevin is critical of Palau allowing Catholics to speak (as I would be, sorry) his doctrine is essentially not that different than Catholic doctrine.
It is possible to take verses, from I John for example, and come up with some of the ideas that Kevin espouses. But his theology demonstrates why we have to look at scripture as a whole. For example I John talks about someone being a believer as one who “does not continue in sin.” This is a statement, I believe, that must be taken seriously. God takes it so. However, I John also says that if we claim to be without sin, we are a liar.
God does expect holiness and obedience, and becoming a Christian is not about saying a prayer and going off and living how one chooses. There is all too much faith in that “I prayed a prayer” business. We need to judge whether or not we really know Christ by looking at what his word says and judging our lives by it. I don’t know what “message” the Palau festival really communicates, and I don’t want to condone it in the midst of criticizing Kevin’s doctrine or approach. I will say that if I had been there when the rap singer made his joke - if it is accurately represented - about God touching him, I would have a) left in disgust or b) ask the leaders if he could be escorted OUT.
In the end an “easy believism” message and a “you have to be perfect message” both ignore the power that Christ can have in one’s life, both to help one not even desire to sin, and to be able to truly believe that he has the power to forgive when one truly repents.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:46 am
Sandy,
It was actually Ohio University ;). That’s ok I love Oklahoma. There’s a lot of hospitality, and the area is beautiful too.
And yeah, while I was there Brother Jed made Christ look terrible. He actually managed to start a riot with a homosexual advocacy group called Swarm of Dykes while I was there. Nothing says Jesus like a riot.
For some reason he seemed to enjoy cocking his Bible like a gun and saying “I’m a shoot you down satan”. Sheesh. Brother Jed’s homepage for those who want a better sense of what we’re dealing with.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:50 am
“In the end an “easy believism†message and a “you have to be perfect message†both ignore the power that Christ can have in one’s life, both to help one not even desire to sin, and to be able to truly believe that he has the power to forgive when one truly repents. ”
To be fair, Kevin presents a number of scriptures that demonstrate how we can indeed be without sin THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The problem is that he doesn’t seem to emphasize that the Bible also says that people do still sin, and that forgiveness is readily available. Then there’s this nebulous idea that if you die while practicing sin you go to hell. (It’s unclear to me if he means just having a sin that one hasn’t asked forgiveness for, or having some pattern of continuing sin for which one hasn’t repented.)
The scriptures that Kevin emphasizes about not sinning and the Holy Spirit’s power in keeping us from sin, and helping us to not even desire sin are ones that need to be emphasized in Christianity today. There is too much emphasis on continuing to live “in the flesh” instead of “in the spirit.” Some catch phrases are “it’s okay, we’re all sinners, God forgives; let’s don’t be “too holy’” let’s advertise how “unholy” and human we are. Thus the power of God to help one not sin and the desire that should be in the Christian to be passionate about obeying their master is ignored.
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
My apologies for using this man’s name. (Actually it seems like it would be better to name ministries so the person being discussed has more of a chance at finding the discussion on the internet and defending himself if need be.)
Also, just to note that I do not know this man, what his relationship with God is, nor have I read any books he may have written, listened to any sermons he has preached, etc. My “study” of his theology was very brief. (In short, if you all didn’t agree with me, my words would be considered of little count. :)) Seriously, I do not want to retract what I’ve said but I think that people should look thoroughly at his ministry and doctrine before they take my (or anyone else’s) evaluation for it.
Good comments by Rick.
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
amy,
No problems with using his name within the comments section, which is less controlled and often requires specific names when we’re quoting. It is in the initial articles that I am trying to get us to go at least one level beyond individual people to either organizations or ideas, so that it is the idea being critiqued moreso than the person.
I probably wasn’t clear enough on that in my ‘raking’ post, as well.
If it is possible to stick to ideas in the comments, that is what seems to be best and aligned with ‘the message, not the messenger’ philosophy engendered in Paul’s commentary. I understand though, that the nature of the comments section often goes lower than this, and requires more charity and balance.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Tim Reed — thanks for posting Brother Jed’s homepage…I knew I remembered the name (and now the face) from when he camped out in Madison, Wisconsin….lovely times….so uplifting.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Its funny how many people Brother Jed has brought together.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:42 am
Amy,
The thing is to me, MacArthur is just another version of “easy believism” as on need only study his thoughts and writings and agree and be saved… and oh yeah you better accept Jesus just the right way…
Yet, Jesus calls us to come out of OUR lives and in exchange he give us His. If I recall His Life is not that easy… (grin).
It is that we struggle and think and talk and discuss with God and others that we begin to let Christianity function as the Body of Christ… not just a local church but as a whole. It will be most intense on the local level, yet the core of Christianity is not what I get out of it, but what I give away from what I have gotten out of it.
I receive Grace, I give it away.
I receive Mercy, I give it away.
I receive Love, I give it away.
Recently I discovered that God Justified me, so I must give justice away to others also… and justice is not all about the “bad” legal things, but of the point to set things right as God set things right in me. In the act of giving these things away I am justified, and am spreading His Justification to others.
AND IT IS ALL GOD’S DOING. None of me.
Be Blessed,
iggy
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Ah, the ‘other’ OU. Well, it’s a nice school as well. Many friends teaching there now.
Our Brother Jed would tell all the women they were baby murdering whores and that the men were vile fornicators. It really produced a lot of venom against Christianity on our campus. And saying that most christians don’t feel this way is a hollow response.
I was told by some students that these individuals went from campus to campus, inciting the students until someone took a swing at them or threatened bodily violence. Then they would file a lawsuit. Rumor, have no idea if it’s true, but it does make more sense than trying to spread the love of Jesus.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pm
I feel kinda left out. At Purdue, we had Brother Max, not Brother Jed. Even though, apparently, everyone within shouting distance (which could be a long way with a bullhorn) was, by their very presence on campus, going to hell, he still came back to let them know it every day.