Church Growth a Bad Thing?
The Church Report recently gave its annual list of the the top 50 Most Influential Churches in America. The top two were Willow Creek, followed by Saddleback. Among the top 15 were North Point (Andy Stanley), Fellowship Church (Ed Young), Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll), The Potter’s house (T.D. Jakes), Mosaic (Erwin McManus) and Mars Hill (Rob Bell). Of course the list was packed with those the watch doggie blogs absolutely love to hate.
Slice of Laodicea recently received a press release from Willow Creek, letting others know about the good news. It was also fascinating that 29 of the 50 churches are Willow Creek Association members. “The WCA is a growing multi-denominational worldwide network of more than 12,000 churches from 90 denominations and 35 countries that equips churches and church leaders with strategic vision, training, and resources.â€Â It really is pretty impressive, all the work they have done. But here are a few thoughts one the subject presented by Slice commentors
Well, if they’d included the Catholics, Mormons, and rabbis, Saddleback would’ve won hands-down.
But how many synagogues can Willow Creek boast about? I mean we know for a fact that Rick Warren suggested to unbelieving Jews on how to grow their congregations.
“Churches should be small,†he said (I’m paraphrasing.) “Once they get too big, they can’t look after everyone.â€Â Preach justification by faith alone and all the other doctrines that depend on that. Keep that up and your church will prosper.
Apparently number counting and notches on the belt exceeds spiritual maturity, any of the fruits of the Spirit, and “pillar and ground of the truth†as vital areas of church life. How sad that they’d rather puff themselves up over their influence than give God glory and follow his command to flee the world. I wish they’d stop counting goats and leave the numbers to God, who “gives the increaseâ€.
Meanwhile, a group of young Christians from S. Korea are being held captive by the Taliban in Afghanistan. The threats of death are with them daily. This kind of garbage from Willow Creek is sickening!
I’m sure that God is terribly impressed. Do you think He is on their e-mail list, or did He have to get this second hand? Sometimes you wish you could tell these clowns to crawl back into their hole and play with whatever makes them happy.
I wonder what would happen if Grace Community Church was on the list and John MacArthur put out this press release. Would their numerical growth be “sickening”? It’s sad that so many people cannot rejoice in what is happening all over the world. And who ever said that numbers are not a good thing? I know we should not judge a church solely on numbers, but it does say a lot. If a church is growing numerically, it means that new people are coming (which normally means they are coming to Christ). And it doesn’t mean you have to have thousands coming, but steady church growth is usually a sign of health.
I fear for churches that have no numerical growth, but say something like “well, we may not be growing with people, but our members are all well versed and growing in the word.â€Â If there isn’t growth, then new people are not coming.  And if new people aren’t coming, then the chances that people are finding Christ in that community are slim to none.
July 25th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Nathan,
An earlier post on C&N actually noted that they were happy that Grace Community Church had fallen off the list (it was ranked 31st last year), sounding a lot like Actors not nominated for an Oscar. Personally, I thought that this year’s absence of GCC and Without Walls (and Lakewood dropping a few slots) were a sign of overall improving discernment on the part of church in America.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
I guess the only acceptable model is to get a celebrity preacher like John MacArthur and your own radio show, then have your own college… and so on… I guess that is the model we should use.
Celebrity status…
I’ll get to work on that right away!
Be Blessed,
iggy
July 25th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Chris L,
I think I agree with your assessment as I think people have seen the fruit of Lordship Salvation as evident in that well researched book of his.
I think that when people see hate in the Name of Jesus and name calling they see the insidious underbelly of his ministry.
I have expressed my concerns over some things JM has stated and teaches and am attack viciously for it… one site told me to get psychological help!
This person stated:
”
Please, iggy, so all can understand finally, point out where you have been called names and slandered.”
and I pointed to that very comment where he later stated:
“Your posts are so obviously a product of a delusional mind that it must be a sick attempt at humor.”
He also earlier had called me a “pathetic little man”… LOL!
Which is both name calling and slander as I easily push close to 290lbs at 6′2″ … I can be pathetic at time… but “little” I am far from! LOL!
Yet, this is pretty common to the those I have encountered in the “Grace to you” camp.
blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 12:05 am
I think I Corinthians 3:12-13 speaks to this pretty well…
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what size of work each one has done.
Hmm…is that what it says, or did I mistranslate?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Clearly,
Now, that depends… is it our works as we are in Christ or if one is in Christ was it Jesus’ working in and through us. Now, Jesus is the foundation we are to build on… and the Gold silver and precious stones are His not ours… we only have wood hay and stubble.
I think that Philippians 2: 12-13 gives further understanding…
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.”
Notice these things about works.
1. it is God who works in you
2. It is God who work in us to will.
3. It is God who works in us to will and do His will.
4. It is all according to His good purpose.
None of our works will last all that will last is Jesus.
In the end the ones who stand on their own works are not standing on Christ’s finished works.
It is God’s Good Fruit we must bear… not produce out of ourselves… just bear.
Blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 12:44 am
iggy,
I don’t know how to say this any more nicely, but I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you addressing the 1 Cor. 3 passage?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:44 am
clearly,
I am not too sure how that verse applies. Are you suggesting that Willow Creek’s work for the kingdom is fake and all going to burn?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:47 am
I am only pointing out that God is not going to judge us by the size of our work for his kingdom. Rather, he will judge us according to the sort of our ministry.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Very true. Having that said, I think it is the job of every believer to share the good news and join with Christ in drawing all men to Him. IF we do that THEN we will and should grow. That might be one person a year, or it might be thousands a year. I think you nailed it. It is just important that we are all faithful to do what God has given us all to do.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:55 am
Nathan, I can agree with that. Therefore, it missing the point a bit for any of us to focus on numbers and statistics as they are attached to the names of men, mere servants of the great God. He is the one giving the increase!
July 26th, 2007 at 1:03 am
I don’t think that focusing on number is the bad thing. I think that the motivation for looking at numbers and statistics is the important thing. If you are looking at numbers to see how many are added to the flock, therefore judging the spiritual health of you community, great! If you are doing so to simply brag about how amazing you are, no good.
If numbers were not important, the writer of Acts would not have needed to write “Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.”
July 26th, 2007 at 1:05 am
Good points. I don’t think numbers are unimportant, I just think that they shouldn’t be the focus — our focus should be primarily doxological, numerical growth just being one facet of how God is glorified through us.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:09 am
agreed.
I think that an increase in numbers (or a biblical desire for church growth) is a result of healthy doxology.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:15 am
Clearly,
i am addressing a fuller understanding of “works” the verse you gave can give the impression that these are OUR works…
I am pointing out that they are not.
Any good thing comes from God… this is the focus of Paul in Romans 7
Now if you are stating that how a church grows need built on God will and purpose… I agree.
Yet, to say this model or that is not of God may miss that it is not the model that is working in people, but the Holy Spirit.
Be blessed,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 2:13 am
I might add to the post that if there is no numbers growth then the people at that church are not doing any discipling of others… they are not evangelising… they are rebelling against the Great Commission…
But then that would me they believed the Bible… for true belief is when one does what it says.
blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Nathan said: “It really is pretty impressive, all the work they have done”.
OK. I can agree with that on a superficial level, but the explosion in growth in the Mormon church over the past 25 years has been pretty impressive also. Heck, we even got a bona fide Mormon Temple built right here in Houston there are so many of them needing to be baptized. Was God in that?
But there are a multitude of dynamics going on here other than the merits of raw numerical growth. I don’t think any rational Christian would be critical of any church adding souls to the Kingdom. Us watchpoodles (and I guess I am one if push comes to shove, but I don’t get the French Cut and just let my hair grow out so I don’t look like a sissydog) are concerned, and I think rightly so, just how are these “numbers” being generated? And that’s the rub between us, isn’t it?
If you look at these mega-churches one has to wonder: are they seeking souls or marketing just another country club? In my studies of the current events at hand, I personally have come to the conclusion they have packaged and are marketing the American Dream lifestyle, family friendly, with the appearance of godly things thrown in to tie up the “packageâ€. I also view the Willowcreek, Saddlebacks et. al., as a strictly American (i.e, not Biblical) phenomenon. The movement is geared towards growth via the satisfaction of the natural cravings of the flesh (as exegeted via coffee bars, theater seating, work out rooms, gymnasiums, video game rooms, lights, mega monitors, sound, glitz, “buzzâ€, et. al). Things foreign to the historical church and to the universal church at large in the world still today outside the USA.
Even small churches in the US can’t compete. But again, and this is the most important point, the COMPETITION appears to me to be about numbers and not souls.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Houston John,
If you look at these mega-churches one has to wonder: are they seeking souls or marketing just another country club?
I think both things are happening… yet if one finds Jesus at a country club does that negate their salvation?
It is when we can see salvation is not what we do… but all of what God has and is doing I think we can get pass worrying about thing like that.
Am i a fan of church marketing? Not really but some has to be done… a church has to do some public relations and self promotion to exist as otherwise people might not find them.
In a way, the miracles of Jesus was what got people interested in Him… this was a form of marketing (if you think about it a bit) yet Jesus did not want people to believe in Him solely on the miracles…
Blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
HJ,
You noted:
As a member of a church that would probably be considered a ‘megachurch’ (about 3600/weekend), I can say that we are seeking souls and not marketing a ‘country club’. The word is preached without apology, and its not all about glitz and glitter.
[Interestingly, before we became a part of this church a few years ago, we were attending a small church of about 300 which, despite a lot of language to the contrary, operated as a country club. I'm not sure that the phenomoena is necessarily related to size of a church, its just more visible when it occurs on a larger scale.]
You asked:
Partly, I am sure that there are those who attend on Sunday morning and do nothing the other 6.9 days of the week. On the other hand, though, we have an incredibly large network of community groups which meet weekly or bi-weekly, and who live in much closer community that the entire body (which would be nigh impossible).
Similarly to Mars Hill (GR), our Sunday gatherings are considered times where all of the community groups come together and where guests are invited for a time of corporate worship and teaching. Sunday morning is not what defines the church. “Numbers” are achieved because multiple ‘house churches’ are all networked together and meet on a regular basis.
Additionally, this ’size’ enables us to better fund and participate in missions, because we are able to better organize and focus on a particular mission and bring the resources to bear to tackle it. As an example:
Last year, we became aware of a number of people in the local community who suffer from physical disabilities who are unable to get out on their own. So, as an entire church body, this was brought to our attention along with ways to involve them with community groups, with the church gatherings, and to assist them with things they need for daily living that most of us take for granted. Within a month, we were able to purchase a large van for transportation (to church functions and to help them to get out for some of those daily living tasks) and we have ~250 individuals in our special needs ministry who care for those amongst us who have those needs.
As for lights, sound and music, there is a small group on staff who are concerned with the ‘image’ aspect of the church, worship services, web pages, etc. They are primarily artists (like myself) who desire excellence in all we give to God, so what ‘polish’ is seen is not for the benefit of men, but to give our best to the One we worship. As artists, we tend to see things that others would just consider ‘window dressing’ as important statements about our community and how we desire to please God.
We are an independent chuch, but we belong to the WCA (for ideas and resources). We do have a small coffee bar (donations to which fund certain missions - coffee is donated). I’m not sure why this is ’selling out’ any more than a small church with a coffee urn in the lobby next to a few styrofoam cups.
We don’t have theater seating (we like moving things around for multiple purposes), but we do have a gymnasium w/ workout equipment. I can tell you of at least two families I know personally who have started attending the church after they had young children involved in our youth winter basketball league, where they became friends with some members of the church and started going to their small groups. Adding the recreation facilities was not for our own benefit, but as a means of outreach and community building.
I don’t know about ‘mega monitors’, but we do have three screens at the front of the room where scriptures, words for the music (if you need them), sermon notes and video illustrations are projected. The purpose isn’t for technology or ‘glitz’, but to either assist in worship or to provide supporting material for teaching lessons. [All scriptures used from the pulpit are shown on the screen, but the first question every service from the lead pastor is "does everyone have your Bibles? (asking for a show of hands)" followed by "Good - cause you're gonna need them this week". I've always found this humorous, because he says it EVERY week, as if that week might be different from the others.]
As far as ‘competition’ goes, it’s not about competition, its about being salt and light and being the best possible steward of His resources. While some churches are blessed with numbers, others are blessed with deep scholarship and yet others are blessed with intense passion - all as part of the body. Not everyone is a nose, or an ear or an eye or a foot.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Iggy, you wrote:
Visit Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, MI, sometime if you want to see an example of ‘as little marketing as possible’. While they do have a (fairly minimal) website, I’m not even sure they have a sign outside their building that identifies them. They meet weekly in an old shopping mall with all the signs removed, and very little glitz or glamor - yet they run about 10,000 on a weekend.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
To respond to your first paragraph, I never said that growth = God’s favor. I did say that growth = God’s design. If a church isn’t growing, then people are not coming to Christ. If you have the exact same group of people in five years, you have a huge problem. I will be honest with you HJ, I think most of the discernment ministries harp on church growth today because they are members of churches that aren’t growing. The church is definately loosing the 18 - 30 year old demographic, and you can forget about today’s youth in a matter of years.
Do I think that Mega Churches are more interested in creating country clubs than souls? No. I have personally interacted with Rick Warren and Bill Hybels. Even though you might disagree on some theological points, I can tell you that their hearts beat for the hearts of the unsaved. Most watch doggies have never been to a service at Saddleback or Willow Creek, and do not see the effort to share the gospel there. They assume they are just all about big campuses and flashy technology. You can either view the big and innovative campuses as a stumbling block, or a very strategic tool.
You’re right, it isn’t about competition. I remember one event at Saddleback, Doug Fields said that their youth ministry (of 3,000+ teenagers) was not the youth ministry to be examined. He told a story of a little church down the road (literally 10 minutes from Saddleback) that had over 300 students attending their youth group in a church of 700.
It is not about how big you are, but how faithful you are with what you are given.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Chris L (and HJ),
I think you brought up an interesting point. Most of the “mega-churches” that I have been a part of operate nothing like a country club. On the other hand, many of the smaller churches I have been a part of operate much more like a exclusive country club. People are so networked together within their small group, that the outsider is often overlooked or has to prove himself before being accepted into the club. Interesting thought.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Nathan,
I really do try to keep an open mind. I have been members of several mega-churches in Houston, on the praise team at a couple but have been “driven” out as they sadly became Purpose Driven clones. My wife and I are currently serving at a Calvary Chapel mission starter church. So I’ve been in big and small churches and size is certainly no indication of spirituality. But let’s get back to this Willowcreek Press Release.
Nathan. Doesn’t it nag at your spirit (even just a little) that a church has a public relations staff? What are they promoting? Certainly not Christ (as if Christ needs a PR department’s spin). I think they do get around to mentioning God somewhere near the bottom of the release. No, they are promoting Willowcreek church. Can you deny that press release promotes a church? Please meditate on that a moment. I mean really, a Christian organization promoting its own accomplishments, its own pastor? It was one thing for the polling organization (a 3rd party) to promote them, but for Willowcreek themselves to send out a press release!?! Have you truly thought this through ?
What does the bible say about self promotion?
Prov 27:2 - Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.
Matthew 23:12 - Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
1 Cor 1:31- so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
1 Cor 4:6-7 - Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
Can you not see there is something intrinsically wrong with the whole concept here? We are not talking numbers here. We are talking about a basic understanding of Biblical principals.
When I read such things as these I can only honestly come to the conclusion that they are MARKETING a PRODUCT. What do you see?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Iggy said: “I think both things are happening… yet if one finds Jesus at a country club does that negate their salvation?”
No.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
“So I’ve been in big and small churches and size is certainly no indication of spirituality.”
exactly… this is not about size, it is about growth. There is a huge difference
“Nathan. Doesn’t it nag at your spirit (even just a little) that a church has a public relations staff? What are they promoting? Certainly not Christ (as if Christ needs a PR department’s spin). I think they do get around to mentioning God somewhere near the bottom of the release. No, they are promoting Willowcreek church.”
No it doesn’t nag me at all. They are promoting a community that is leading people to Christ on a regular basis. I do alot of work with Willow, and know that the media department’s mission is to get people into a place where they can hear about Christ. Let me ask you something, would you then say that Churches should not advertise, put ads in the newspaper, make fliers for events the church is having or promote their church services in any way? Or should be just pray and hope that people come without any knowledge of who we are, or what we are doing?
“When I read such things as these I can only honestly come to the conclusion that they are MARKETING a PRODUCT. What do you see?”
They are marketing, that is for sure, but it is no product, it is a community or believer. And, by marketing a community of believers, they are working very hard to get non believers into a place where they can find Christ.
I go back to my original thought in the post. I think Slice would have given a different a different response if it would have read:
For the second year in a row, Grace Community Church has been rated the most influential church in the U.S. in a recent survey of more than 2,000 of the largest non-Catholic congregations in the nation….
…Earlier this year, Grace Community Church’s senior pastor, John MacArthur, was also included in a list of the “50 Most Influential Pastors in America,†published by The Church Report, a monthly business news magazine for Christian leaders that serves 40,000 from across the country.
Is this really about “self promotion”, or are people just upset about who is being promoted. I think the latter.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
A PR department is a sign of a bad church?
As someone who works a couple cubicles away from a corporate PR team, as an organization gets bigger, it’s important to communicate properly.
I’ve received emails from elders/pastors that are worded so badly, that if I didn’t know the guys personally, I would have come off as insulted. No, they didn’t intend to sin against me or others, but it could have come off that way.
In addition, I just went to visit Grace Community Church’s web site. Someone wrote all that copy for the web site and I guarantee you that it wasn’t MacArthur himself. It would have been someone from the church’s marketing or pr team. Or a marketing or pr freelancer the church hired.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Iggy said: “Am i a fan of church marketing? Not really but some has to be done… a church has to do some public relations and self promotion to exist as otherwise people might not find them.
HJ: Iggy, your concept is so far afield from my understanding of evangelism that reconstructing how you got there is probably not possible in this venue. “Hey, come to my church and hear my pastor preach, God is really moving” or “Hey, come to my church and we will pray for you and you may find some answers to your problem” is one thing. “Hey, come to my church we’ve got a smoke’n band and cool light show and you can get in a good work out afterward, a wait to you see our cool bathrooms” are two entirely different and non-reconcilable world views.
Iggy said: “In a way, the miracles of Jesus was what got people interested in Him… this was a form of marketing (if you think about it a bit) yet Jesus did not want people to believe in Him solely on the miracles…”
Iggy . . . wow man. I’m sorry, but that’s just waaaaayyy out there. True, miracles do bring crowds, but can you honestly say Christ performed His miracles of healing and compassion in order to draw crowds? That was His motive?
July 26th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Chris L,
I sounds like the Lord has blessed you with a truly great body of believers to serve with. Amen!
July 26th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
“Hey, come to my church we’ve got a smoke’n band and cool light show and you can get in a good work out afterward, a wait to you see our cool bathroomsâ€
Sometimes I wonder who on earth makes up the propaganda against emerging churches. I have never ever heard anyone invite someone to a church because of the lights and gym. People assume that emerging churches hinge on aesthetics. This couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Great point Matt about the Grace To You PR stuff.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Nathan,
The issue is SELF promotion. That press release is not in any way advertising an event, it is bragging on self. You have side stepped and not addressed the scriptural issue at all which is boasting and self aggrandizement. The Bible has quite a bit to say about that. I guess one can rationalize any behavior if they tag “it’s all for the Lord” at the end of it. But when the “means” violates the clear meaning of Scripture, then, sorry, but I have “wait a minute, no, this is not right “.
“. . . so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive?”
You’re just going to totally rationalize that away?
July 26th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Hey guys, I’m really enjoying the discussion, but I’ve way overextended my lunch time. Have to cut out for now, but I’ll pick it back up when I can.
God Bless.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
It really all boils down to motivation. If you think that this press-release (or any promotion) is promoting self for the sheer sake of promoting one’s self, then yes it it wrong. If you think that this press-release is promoting a movement that God is obviously using to reach people for Christ, then it isn’t wrong. I guess because I have personally worked with many people from Willow, I know the latter is the probable scenario.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Houston John…
Strangely, you have taken all I stated and twisted it completely to mean the opposite.
I never stated that was my view of evangelism… not once.
I never stated that was the motive of Jesus to do miracles…
I did state this:
” Am i a fan of church marketing? Not really but some has to be done… a church has to do some public relations and self promotion to exist as otherwise people might not find them.
In a way, the miracles of Jesus was what got people interested in Him… this was a form of marketing (if you think about it a bit) yet Jesus did not want people to believe in Him solely on the miracles… ”
You have added something from your own filter to what i actually stated… iow you put your words in my mouth.
I am stating that the Holy Spirit is how one becomes a Christian and grows.
And that many followed Jesus because of Him miracles… they were believers yet, if one looks there was a point that Jesus did not entrust himself to them as “He knew men’s hearts”.
So, the real question is why are you misrepresenting me this way and how in Mercedes, did you ever get what you stated about what i said out of what i said?
I am not surprised as this pandemic amongst those who are Jonny Mac apologetists. They seem to rather make up what emergents believe than actually listen and understand what we really do believe. More than often I see them beleive lies over the truth… which makes me really wonder…
Blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Chris L,
Mars Hill is a great example of what I am talking about, yet even without the sign, they have their website, podcasts Mark’s books and so on… these are also a point of PR.
Not all of it is bad, yet if that is all we use to draw people to church then we have replaced Jesus as He stated he will draw all men unto himself.
Blessings,
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
hey that little botton there is cool
July 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Iggy,
Wrong Mars Hill - Marsh Hill Grand Rapids is Rob Bell (not Mark Driscoll). I don’t know as much about the workings of MH Seattle, though it could be similar…
July 26th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Even still Chris, the main point still stands… Rob Bell has few books and other products, and podcast out there and is a very public figure…
there is still some PR going on… and it is still not all bad.
: )
iggy
July 26th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Any church that has a web site is doing PR.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Iggy said: “I am not surprised as this pandemic amongst those who are Jonny Mac apologetists. They seem to rather make up what emergents believe than actually listen and understand what we really do believe. More than often I see them beleive lies over the truth… which makes me really wonder…”
Iggy, some of “us” really do try to understand what you as an emergent are saying, but sometimes people of sincere intent (as I hope I am) have difficulty with the emergent thought process. For example the CONTEXT of this discussion is public relations and marketing . The webmasters on this blog including yourself appear (at least to this observer) to be pro-PR, and to basically support WHATEVER brings the crowds in. So, yes, that is the worldview I preceive is expressed here and through which I “filter” the information presented.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Iggy said: “Iggy said: “Am i a fan of church marketing? Not really but some has to be done… a church has to do some public relations and self promotion to exist as otherwise people might not find them.”
So you view marketing as a necessary evil? One might think so in your first sentence, but you contradict yourself in the second. “A church HAS to do some public relations and self-promotion to exist”? So what is one to think? Which is it? “Have to” seems a pretty absolute statement. I have tried with no success to get anyone to specifically address the Scriptures in which the Bible speaks very negatively of, and Jesus personally prohibits self promotion. All I get is human rationalization.
And as for people “not finding them” I thought the whole point of evangelism was to GO INTO the world. So what is your advice to the church in China or the Sudan, do they need to advertise or no one will find them? That is what I would extrapolation from your comments and if I have mis-interpreted and put words in your mouth then I’m sure you will correct me, as well you should). How, about if the individual church members simply shared the gospel with those they come across and invite them to church. Again, I will say the advertising of churches is strictly an American phenomonon with no “overt” Bible basis.
Act 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.
Being built up in the Apostle’s teaching, moving forward in the world in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit they INCREASED. No hint of advertising here. But you don’t need the Holy Spirit to build a congregation, today’s marketing techniques have proven that.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Iggy: PS I am not a MacArthur apologist.
and I’m not a Calvinist.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
HJ,
I would not say that I support WHATEVER will bring in the crowds, but I think sometimes any marketing is criticized as too much marketing, and numbers are seen as somehow selling out (often via twisted exegesis of John 6).
Leading worship with clowns, for instance, I would think passes the bounds of good taste. However, sponsoring a family night when a circus comes to town I would not see as such. I believe that one can be relevant without watering down the gospel or preaching ‘another gospel’.
I would not say that I am pro-PR or anti-PR, as it would be situationally dependent, within the bounds of scripture.
In the case of Willow Creek, adding churches to the network (which is free to join, if I understand correctly) is helpful for all involved - giving a place to exchange ideas and collaborate within the larger church body. I read their press release to churches not as boasting, but as a way of getting more members to join. SoL sees something more sinister, which is their game.
Going back to the “whatever” - for me it is not the “whatever” that is most important. It is what happens when non-believers actually come. Are they being invited into a social club, or are they hearing about the gospel and the kingdom of God? That seems far more important than whether or not the pastor uses a sermon illustration from Spurgeon or Spider-man.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
HJ,
I am not contradicting myself… I never stated that all marketing is wrong…. I stated I am not a fan of it… even evangelism is a sort of “marketing”. So which is it you ask?
Marketing if done in a way that promotes the church in a way that does not distract from the main goal of our faith is fine. I prefer that one trust more in the Holy Spirit than some marketing committee or advertising agency. This is not so absolute as you are making it.
Your other point is what i am often talking about so have no idea where you are getting me saying the opposite of “go into the world”.
As far as your example I have not issue with it.
as far as my stating that I have witness this sort of turning what one states seems very common amongst those who critique the emerging church and that mostly comes from the MacArthurites.
I hope that bring more clarity… and since I guess i “messed with you” a bit on the “friend whose last name is Mormon” I guess this is all about fair play. LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
July 27th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Chris L said: “Going back to the “whatever†- for me it is not the “whatever†that is most important. It is what happens when non-believers actually come. Are they being invited into a social club, or are they hearing about the gospel and the kingdom of God? That seems far more important than whether or not the pastor uses a sermon illustration from Spurgeon or Spider-man.”
Amen to that brother!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Iggy said: “even evangelism is a sort of “marketing”‘.
“Marketing” - the process or act of bringing together buyers and sellers. (Wikipedia)
Marketing consists of 4 “P’s”. Product, Pricing, Promotion, and Placement. If evangelism is, indeed, a type of marketing let’s break that down in regards to Christianity:
Product: Jesus as the ressurection and the life.
Pricing: Free to buyer, death on a cross for provider.
Promotion: Evangelism.
Placement (distribution): Regeneration by Holy Spirit
So there it is in all its base, defiled glory — the logical extrapolation of the notion that evangelism is a sort of marketing. But really think about that. We “market” Jesus? We market the gift of salvation?
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,” (Col 1:15-19)
Do we really want to reduce theLord to a product and the proclamation of the gospel to specialized advertising? Is that really the image of our God, His Son, His sacrifice, the awesome privilege of being a part of the salvivic process through sharing the Gospel we want to integrate into our world view?
Iggy, from reading your posts over the past year or so I can tell you are a sincere young preacher with a heart and love for people and sharing the gospel and my extrapolation above is probably the farthest thing from your intent. But we have to pursue concepts to their logical conclusion in order to determine their veracity. Ideas lead to concepts. Concepts develop into world views which govern our future actions. But this spirit of pragmatism that is running rampant though the Body of Christ in these last days (as mainly propagated by the sons of secular economist Peter Drucker – Rick Warren and Bill Hybels) HAS, in the ultimate analysis, reduced Jesus to just another product. All “Systems†and “Methodologies†have their roots in something. The root of the current Church Growth methodologies is there for anyone who wants to see.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Houston,
So that is why I am not a fan of marketing… LOL!
I appreciate your words to me about me… : )
I think though the big communication gap between you and me is this…
I see that Jesus works… that is my pragmatism…
I see that in spite of overzealousness of “marketing Jesus” Jesus is able to overcome that and still reach people by His grace…. for that is Who actually reaches people.
I could be mowing my lawn and never speak to my neighbor who yells over to me that he has been watching me and my family and he wants to know about our faith. Not a word from me, but God still moved on his heart.
I see that in spite of all the Warren/Hybel issues that God is able… able to save people even through mans inadequacies.
So, again, my pragmatism is Jesus Christ.
Blessings,
iggy
July 27th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Houston John:
Any publilicty a church does is marketing. If they have an ad in the yellow pages, a web site, a brochure, a bulletin, etc.
It’s all marketing.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Matt B,
I have tried to get everyone on the “it’s all marketing” bandwaggon to just take a step back and reflect on the logical extrapolation of this mindset. IMO there is a legitamate and appropriate segregation of the sacred and the profane. As I said in an earlier post, thoughts and attitudes lead to world views and the concept that God, grace or even a church is a product to be marketed exposes that world view which is not a biblical one.
But I’ve just about exhaused my abilities to expound this particular point. I’ll just have to leave it up to the Holy Spirit to work on changing either my heart or you guys’. Hey, and that’s a good thing!
Shalom!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
HJ,
At first I was not sure about you… but ya know, I kinda like you! : )
Blessings,
iggy
July 27th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Iggy: hugs all round!
August 11th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Check out the source of this list:
Rising Evangelical Star Jason Christy Leaves Trail of Fraud, Associates Say
By Hannah Elliott
SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. Aug. 1 /ABP/ — When young, charismatic Christian publisher Jason Christy was tapped two years ago to lead the powerful Christian Coalition, the group’s leaders praised him for his ability “to inspire and encourage people of faith to action.” But Christy’s business dealings — both before and after his one-month affiliation with the Coalition — instead have inspired former customers and co-workers to file lawsuits charging Christy with defrauding their Christian businesses.
Christy, 36, who apparently had no previous public-policy experience, persuaded the Christian Coalition in 2005 to place him in one of the most visible and powerful positions in evangelical life. But before the coalition’s leaders officially turned over the reins of their 1.2 million-member national lobbying group, they learned of a trail of legal and financial problems that has followed Christy from coast to coast.
Former associates and customers of Christy’s many business ventures — mostly Christian magazines — say he cheated them out of money and threatened them. At least 10 of them have filed lawsuits, Associated Baptist Press has learned, and others have gotten court-issued restraining or protection orders against the Scottsdale, Ariz., businessman.
Christy says all the allegations are false. He and his supporters say “enemies” are spreading lies about him because of soured business relationships. But critics say Christy is a scam artist preying on trusting Christians.
Christy now publishes The Church Report, supposedly a conservative, national print magazine and web site. He has appeared as an analyst on CNN and spoken at megachurches like Robert Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral. He hob-nobs with some of the evangelical elite and still has relationships with leaders in highly respected positions, like the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.
This article is continued at Associated Baptist Press News: http://www.abpnews.com/2685.article
Also at The Baptist Standard: http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=6646 and
Christianity Today: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/131-35.0.html
August 11th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Gary,
According to the article, the source was not Jason Christy, but Dr. John N. Vaughan. From the article:
Here is the methodology used in the article:
So, while this was reported in Christy’s magazine, the content of the article was not of his making, for good or ill. I’m not sure what logical point your links are supposed to make.