Snapshots of Christianity, Hinduism and American Culture.
Posted by Chris L on Jul 5th, 2007
2007
Jul 5
While I commented further on these stories over on Fishing the Abyss this morning, I wonder if it would not be more effective to just provide three links and let the reader ‘do the math’:
So many lessons, so little time…
July 5th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Hmmm…
You mean that humans are depraved beyond measure and will receive the full wrath of God because God hate them all. How dare we even think of letting them in our churches? I mean depraved sinners in our churches… what will happen next… that they might hear the gospel and get saved? Oh, my! What if they came in and like the contemporary music and then started attending more often… them goats! I mean some of those in India serve false gods anyway… they might be demon possessed! How dare we bring demons before Jesus! How dare we let those sinners even live!
If I had my way I would just call down fire from heaven and devour them all… how dare they even dare to call themselves humans… they are nothing but dogs….
I think I we all will have to blame this on Rick Warren and the Emergent Church because they opened their doors to sinners and have forsaken God! And oh btw we might as well toss in the Trilateral Commission as well… just in case.
May all but us who deem ourselves Elect… burn in hell as we laugh!
iggy
P.S. I am practicing so I can write for SoL and CRN… what do you think? Is is good enough?
July 5th, 2007 at 11:24 am
OH I forgot to add this…
It is by Grace WE (Those of us who have deemed ourselves worthy to be called the Elect) are saved… those other guys are just on their own…
Be Blessed,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 11:25 am
BTW Mother Teresa was a Catholic… and she loved those Hindus… so there is no way she was saved at all….
There i got some Catholic bashing in also!
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Personally, Iggy, I blame Adam.
Not that I would have done any better in his shoes…
July 5th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Oh sure actually use the bible… that is not fair at all.
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Chris,
Now that we have that all out of the way, maybe we can focus on what you really are asking…
When we have a religion based on self focus and our own style and how we think “our” worship should be… we start to become less and less human as we de-humanize others.
If we focus on loving God and others, and love them as God loved us, we become more and more human.
Be Blessed,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Wow, Iggy, try some de-caff! Hiduism is anti-christ since it denies Jesus has come in the flesh (deity). Also, Mother Teresa not only taught salvation by works, she refused to tell dying Hindus about the gospel of Jesus Christ. You do the math.
Not Catholic bashing as Iggy puts it, just the truth. You can’t handle…never mind.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Rick,
Well, I certainly am not comfortable condemning Mother Teresa. Have you read Shane Claiborne’s book, “The Irresistible Revolution”? If not, it may be worth looking at. I’m sure some if would anger you, but there’s some good stuff in it. He spent some time with Mother Teresa in Calcutta, and he talks a lot about it in the book.
Also, as far a “sharing the gospel” goes, I would say she was proclaiming the Kingdom by being there. To say that it always has to be an oral presentation seems to miss something. Is a Christian nurse working at a hospital required to “share the gospel” with every dying patient she encounters. Would it even be effective if she gave a “gospel presentation” while neglecting her calling? I’m not saying Christians aren’t called to share verbally and in actions, but I don’t think it is out of legalistic obligation. If we follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit, He will guide us.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Phil - first, I did not “bash” Mother Teresa. But what you have shared captures in a nutshell what many are concerned with in the emergent movement. Are you saying people can be saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you saying they can believe on Christ without hearing His name?
Baking cookies, changing bandages, and being kind is in and of itself a witness for Christ that can lead a sinner whose never heard of Christ to salvation? I have known atheists in my life who were kind and giving, were they a witness for Jesus? Mother Teresa’s life was a self sacrificing and noble venture. It was not Christian.
Yes, we must preach the gospel to every creature, Jesus said, so because Mother Teresa did so much good you choose her silent witness over Jesus’ commandment? Good works have been used to substantiate the love of God, the gospel can only be spread through the Word. The concept you have outlined is surely not Biblical, and if I had a lost loved one who was dying I would a billion times over want Ken Silva to visit them than Mother Teresa. I can get a Muslim or a Hindu to change a sick bed, I need a believer of the Lord Jesus to preach the Word.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Rick,
First I did not say you were “bashing” Mother Teresa. It just seemed from your post that you somewhat condemning her. As far as having a dying relative, I wouldn’t want either Ken Silva or Mother Teresa to have to be there. Certainly there have been deathbed conversions, but in a way it’s a shame that it comes to that. I for one would be sad that I would have to rely on someone else to share the Gospel with a loved one.
Also, as far as your statement about getting a Muslim or a Hindu to change a sick bed, I think the point of this post is that it doesn’t happen. None of the other world religions really teach caring for the poor and sick. This is another thing that makes Jesus so unique. Most religions say that poor and sick are under judgement of some sort, but Jesus came and said God is for those people. That is an integral part of the Gospel.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
I cannot see where you addressed any of my questions. What does Jesus’ statement about good news for the poor have to do with anything? The poor are saved the same way the rich are. What in the world are you trying to say, Phil?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
The carryong out of our religious beliefs, as James says, substantiates and authenticates the purity of our religion. But those deeds cannot save. Pleas put James’ statement against the backdrop of the hundreds of teachings elsewhere and compare Scripture with Scripture.
I believe Chris’ point was we should show our Savior AS WELL as preach His gospel.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Rick,
To specifically answer your question, I would say no people cannot believe in Christ without hearing His name. The issue is though today is, that Christ’s name has been seriously misrepresented. A large portion of the world equates being a Christian as being a warmonger, not a peacemaker. You will have to go pretty far to actually find someone who has absolutely no knowledge of Jesus.
I don’t quite understand your attack on me here, but all I am saying is that faith and deeds cannot be separated in real life. It’s like taking the filling out of a Twinkie, once you remove the filling it’s no longer a Twinkie. If you remove the actions from a Christian’s life, that person ceases to become a fully functioning Christian. Just as say doing good works without preaching isn’t the whole Gospel, I would say the opposite is true as well. Preaching without demonstration is incomplete.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Everything you said this time I agree with, except about attacking you. I hope I am robust in commenting and never attacking, and I appreciate your patience and your clarification.
See, that is all we fundies desire and you have provided it. We’ll meet again when I fell the insatiable need to attack someone (satire)
July 5th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Rick,
No hard feelings, man!
If you were truly a fightin’ fundie, you would have washed your hands of me a while ago.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Rick,
“Also, Mother Teresa not only taught salvation by works, she refused to tell dying Hindus about the gospel of Jesus Christ. You do the math.”
I recommend you read Irresistible Revolution by Shane Clairborn who actually worked with Mother T. I think your assessment is way off. BTW you are bashing Mother T as she did not teach “works” but did “good works” as she saw Christ in those she served.
“What does Jesus’ statement about good news for the poor have to do with anything?”
Again, Rick that you even ask this saddens me greatly… he came to set the captives free… and we are to also… He came to set things right and we are to also… not as the world… and not just “spiritually”. What if Jesus just died spiritually? What if Jesus came and just said “I love you” and left? It was in His actions Love was revealed… and it should also be with us who claim Him as our Lord.
It seems that one misses that Mother T was already known… and the god she served was already known… and the people that came honored and revered her God.
We forget we only plant and water but it is God that makes things grow… It is God who saves us and others… we do not save anyone for how can we save someone else if we cannot save ourselves?
Any witness be it a blow horn or silent I have faith that the Holy Spirit can speak to the heart of that person greater than I can… an atheist can do acts of kindness… but that kindness will not have the power of the Holy Spirit that can change men’s hearts behind it.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
“god” should of course be capitalized in the above comment.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Iggy,
I’m not sure I understand your position on this. Therefore, can we change from talking about Mother Theresa to the Rev. Redding?
In case you’re not sure who she is, the Seattle times did a write up on her and she is both an Episcopal Priest and a practicing Muslim.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003751274&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=redding17m&date=20070617
She denies the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ and she believes that Jesus led her to Mohammed.
For the sake of clarification, let’s pretend that she spends 9 months a year in India caring for the poor, the widows and the orphans.
Staying within the limits of the case presented should we embrace her as a Christian Sister or regard her as a heretic and one who needs to repent and believe the true gospel?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Chris R.
Honest and quick question here. Is there a difference between being a heretic and being unregenerate?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Iggy - Jesus said the poor you will have with you always. Any good works we do must be in Jesus name because they are not a piece in a puzzle to right the world’s ills, they are conduits of interest to soften hearts to receive the Person behind the good works when He is presnted to them.
The reason Mother Teresa and her ministry to the poor makes people automatically assume her a Christian is a deep misunderstanding of the gospel and how it is presented. To refuse to verbally share Christ is to disobey that very Christ’s commands. It shows a cavalier attitude that assumes the best for lost sinners. Should we not err on the side of over tell instead of a silent witness, whatever that is.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Joe,
Sharp question!
For the sake of clarification let me rephrase the question.
Here is the new re-worked question.
Staying within the limits of the case presented should we embrace her as a Christian Sister or regard her as who is outside of the Christian faith who needs to repent and believe the true gospel?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Joe,
To answer your question more directly I would say this. All heretics are unregenerate but not all the unregenerate are heretics.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
My view is she is a heretic as well as a kook. And just the fact that the entire church community doesn’t come running with outrage gives you a glimpse into “your OK I’m OK” Christian atmosphere.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Chris R.
This Rev. Redding may be sincere in her belief… but I have trouble thinking that he knew the real Jesus before her conversion… and in that I do not see any relation between her conversion and someone who believes in the risen Christ and serves Him and Reddings “conversion”. John states that they went out from us because they were not of us.” I think that Redding may not of been of “us” in Christ as I see that to accept Islam… and it’s understanding of submission denies grace and mercy… though they do have a strong view on justice.
It seems a bit apples and oranges to me… sorry.
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Anyone who says you can preach and not do the Christ’s earthly works of Christ is wrong and unbilical.
Anyone who say you can do Christ’s earthly works and not preach is unbiblical and wrong at the core of the Great Commission.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Rick,
On Mother T… I think we will agree to disagree as that I think that there was a profound knowledge as to her understanding of Who Jesus was and is and what the Gospel is and her practice of doing it.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Iggy,
Good answer.
I will say this regarding Mother Theresa. IF she denied that her salvation was by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ but was a combo of Christ’s work and her own good works (Official Catholic Teaching) then we will not be seeing her in heaven and it would be a terrible tragedy because she demonstrated better than any in our time what it meant to show the love of Christ to those the world considers un-lovable.
But that is the deal with good works. Even the best of them are but filthy rags in God’s sight. They cannot save us.
But to those who trust in Christ even the most feeble good work is pleasing in His sight.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Iggy,
BTW, I was able to speak to someone who is a VERY close friend of Brian McLaren’s about the Rev. Redding. He believed that McClaren would still believe that Redding was a Christian sister.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Chris R,
This is a sticky issue… to some degree….
If one has professed a belief in Jesus and for a time has chosen not to follow… and if it be by Grace and not works we ARE saved… then she may well still be a sister in Christ who has lost her way for a time. So, as far as salvation I will not dwell on if she is saved. My view is though that if one has encountered the True Risen Christ… they will not seek outside that for their salvation.
As far a McLaren that may be his view… also…
There are many practicing Muslims… that believe in the True Jesus. Since it is against the Islam law to change religions they remain quite… or else they die. I have heard a few stories of conversions from Islam in that way where a child came upon their parent worshipping Jesus and reading the Bible… and then asked them about that… they said either their husband (usually it is the wife in this situation) did not want them to believe in Jesus… or that they did not know… or did but loved their wife and asked them to be cautious.
In that many “Christians” believe in Jesus in the underground and yet attend Mosque and look outwardly Muslim.
They practice Islam yet believe in the true Christ.
Now for me here in America, land of the free… to sit back and judge them as they struggle to keep their faith… and serve Jesus as best they can… seems lacking in Mercy. And as James teaches, “Mercy triumphs over judgment!” so I extend mercy to these who are persecuted beyond my own comprehension.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I believe love can be offered to a heretic, but mercy implies making allowance for their error. It is one thing, Iggy, for a an individual believer to struggle, it is quite another for a so called minister to mesh Jesus with Mohammed.
By the way, America has no part in anything.
July 5th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Iggy,
Underground Christians in a Muslim nation is a far different issue than the Rev. Redding Issue. I’m not going to argue against your point regarding them. In fact, I’ll give you a passage to buttress your position so that you’re not relying on your own opinion.
The whole passage is 2 Kings 5:1-19
The specific verses you’ll want to read are 18 & 19. It says:
2 Kings 5:18 In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter. 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.â€
As for Redding she denies the trinity, denies the deity of Christ and believes that she can be a Christian and a practicing Muslim at the same time.
We must pray for her. She confesses a different God and a different Jesus and a different gospel. If she persists in these errors she will face God’s wrath on judgement day. There are no two ways about it.
July 5th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
“As for Redding she denies the trinity, denies the deity of Christ and believes that she can be a Christian and a practicing Muslim at the same time.”
Come on guys, you talk about an easy target. I mean this is the flat earth argument. Denying the deity of Christ is the spirit of anti-christ. OK, case closed. This woman gets press and makes for good copy on watch blogs. Its like attacking Fred Phelps.
The greater and more insidious issues are within the emergent and emerging movement. (I would appreciate a siccinct definition of the difference).
July 5th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Again, I speak as one who denied many things at one point yet Christ restored me to Himself as He is faithful to those He has called His own.
Being that I came out of a similar situation I a a bit reluctant to state emphatically that Rev. Redding is not saved… yet, if one as I did also rejected many of these things, it was out of my lack of understanding of them.
Now, also here is a question for you… Is our salvation based on our own understanding and what we believe? Can one error in some place and yet still be saved?
If your answer is that one must believe to be saved… then I ask what of James’ question of is belief or mental assent what saves us?
I see scripture clearly stating that it is that we recognize our own death and that we must turn to Jesus for Life in Him… in that we have salvation. Then the Holy Spirit works in our heart to teach us and God grows us as He wills to conform to the image of Christ.
If what we believe saves us… then why are Demons who also believe not saved? Is then our emphasis on belief a little out of balance at times? (I am not negating belief at all so please do not go there as so many have done with me as i ask these questions.)
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
“If what we believe saves us… then why are Demons who also believe not saved?”
Because Christ did not die for them. We are saved by faith and faith alone. Yes, it is important what we believe concerning the gospel.
July 5th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
We are saved by Grace through Faith… and faith itself is a gift of God…. so we are not saved by faith… and faith alone.
If it be by Grace then in what way does our understanding other than that we are dead and need a saviour to give us life… what way do we add or take away by our own belief?
If one is dead and walks as one dead.. they are just that dead. But if one has come to life they will walk in that Life and will be alive.
Can one for a season become confused and lose their way and still be saved by Grace? Can it then be that they are as one who will pass through the fire yet still be saved?
We must still error on the side of Mercy as it will triumph over judgement. Love covers a multitude of sins… and Grace saves us… I think if we MUST believe then these are the three most powerful things to cling to. Love God and one another… by judging others, how are we loving them? We are only partaking in this worlds partiality and favoritisms… we neglect to put into practice Love by our acts of mercy and grace toward others.
Rev Redding may never have been saved in the first place… she might have been saved, but judging her and condemning her most likely will only make her dig deeper into her own deluded beliefs… while showing mercy, grace and love most likely will win her back to the purity of the Faith she once knew.
Again, what can we add to God’s grace by our own works? What can we add to God’s mercy towards us by Judging others? How can sins be covered if there is no Love?
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Your question dealt with faith and that is how I answered, of course it is by grace which becomes effecatious by faith. We cannot know for sure this woman’s spiritual condition, we can comdemn her beliefs as unbiblical.
Or else let us never write about any position because we need to show mercy and love no matter what some are teaching. By the way, Iggy, Islam is a religion of works, not grace, and this woman is melding them together. You know what Paul says about Judaeizers who teach works salvation? “I wish they were cut off who trouble you”.
So you of all people should speak out against what this woman is teaching. She may have lost her way and she may also be leading a way, but she is a heretic and her teachings must be exposed as false.
July 5th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Rick,
I already stated that Islam has not concept of Grace or Mercy… so I am not sure why you keep coming at me about this.
My point is that if one is saved by Grace through faith… then loses their way then I see they can still be “saved”.
And I would if I was with her talk to her about the incompatibilities of Islam and Christianity just as I have here and elsewhere against legalistic Christians who teach the Law and still claim grace.
But I will not condemn the person as i am one who should also be condemned if not for God’s mercy toward me.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
“I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?”
“But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?” (1 Corinthians 5:5-6, 11-12)
July 5th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
So why do you condemn and judge Ken because by your definition he is one who has walked away from certain truths and is just like you say you were? Give him grace and mercy and do not speak out against him because he surely is less deviant than this woman, is he not? It is easier to placidly disagree with a Christian/Muslim woman who is nice than a Christian preacher who holds to the truth and yet is abrasive.
Many emergents give Ken gets what he gives but this woman is given space to find her way back because she is probably given to a respectful dialogue. Perhaps the Lord wants her brought to accountability, and in humility she must be rebuked (remember that teaching) with all doctrine and authority. Perhaps she might escape from the captivity of the devil.
That accomodating view to even the most blasphemous teaching is what will bring the emergent movement into full apostacy. There are only one type of people that the emergents will speak out against - people like me.
Hmmm…
July 5th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Rick,
I may discern and judge that Ken has fallen from grace to works… and is as the foolish Galatians… but I do not (as he has of me) condemn Ken as not saved.
BTW Ken… read 2 Cor as to those verses you quoted… and learn as to the why Paul did that. He never state the man was not saved, but turned him over that he might learn and turn back.. he was to be received as a brother.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
No iggy, you read: “I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
She is to be immediately put out of any fellowship whatsoever with the Body of Christ - period. Redding is an idolator until such time she repents and publicly renounces the false religion of Islam, denying the Deity of Christ, and leading people to worship - in the Name of Jesus - the demon-god called Allah.
July 5th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Rick…
“There are only one type of people that the emergents will speak out against - people like me.”
Oh don’t go there… in fact you are far from the “type” we do speak against.
Actually we speak for more people than against… as we see that God is for us and we desire to do as God does… if He loves people we love them… if He cares and sets them free from injustice, we too will do that. If He feeds someone we will do that.
Now, at least that is the ideal… though I do see many doing just that. I have yet to hear of a emergent that turned away someone if they asked for help… but I have heard many a story of those who say, “If you are not a member of our church, then we cannot help you.”
I do not see you like one I oppose but one who has without realizing it entered the conversation in which at times we disagree…
Now there are some that would rather be snide and put you down before they might even deem to give an ear to anything one might have to say if they deem them not worthy.
But, as most human based theologies people like that seem to deem themselves Elect and anyone else who disagrees with them as damned.
I do not see you like that at all… maybe once, but I think your eyes are open.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Ken,
You suppose that that particular “church” is “Christian? Maybe that fellowship left the flock long ago…
So, maybe there is no need to do as you said as she may have already done it.
Blessings,
iggy
July 5th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
iggy,
With all due respect you really do appear to have little grasp of the severity of idolatry in God’s eyes. This fool is blatantly mocking the greatest commandment in the guise of a pastor-teacher supposedly sent by Christ. There simply are no human words strong enough to state how God feels about this.
July 5th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Ken,
You crack me up… you know so little about me and make such great claims as to how much you think you know!
LOL!
Really someday you should just talk to me like a real person instead of down to me as you always do… maybe just maybe you might begin to even start to know who and what I am…
But until then keep amusing me with your sad and highly judgmental accusations… they just keep showing who you are.
BTW when you actually do respect me then I will take the “with all due respect” until then don’t bother with adding another lie to the lies you already tell us.
Blessings,
iggy