Calling All Theologians: Or For Julie Take Two.
Posted by Joe on Jun 16th, 2007
2007
Jun 16
Ok people some ground rules: No bringing up the different sites. No name calling, and no debating election/free will or any of that stuff. All such comments will be deleted with extreme prejudice. Now, that we have that out of the way, here’s the question:
Why is God so angry with Job’s friends. He says they did not speak what is right of him. But in your opinion what did they say that was wrong? I hear a lot of what they said from “good God fearing” people. In other words, give me your opinion or take on this whole scenario.
June 16th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Job’s friends pridefull misrepresented Job’s troubles by assuming they were God’s punishment. They therefore also misrepresented God Himself, and they were attacking God’s servant about whom God bragged.
It is dangerous to attribute divine motive to the earthly struggles we all have. Suffice to say that everything God does has a redemptive thread at its core.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“God bragged”?
brag:
1 : a pompous or boastful statement
2 : arrogant talk or manner
Since when does God sin?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
From God’s perspective bragging is not sin, it’s truth. From our perspective bragging is sinful, especially when it concerns ourselves.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
There goes Rick again!! Causing a thread to end fast!(grins). Just kidding Rick! I couldn’t agree more.
They were making judgments solely based on outward appearances. Those very same judgments we too are not to do, Matthew 7:1. Judgments that are rash, censorious and unjust. Job was a righteous man they condemned him.
June 16th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Rick,
Out of curiosity, you just played on a word. The phrase God braqged is not in scripture but when Ken pointed that out to you you said “From God’s perspective bragging is not sin, it’s truth. From our perspective bragging is sinful, especially when it concerns ourselves.” Obviously your statement is implied. Maybe now you understand Bells phrase “God has faith in His people.”
June 16th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
God will praise (brag) on obedience, which is different than having faith. God already knows what will happen so having faith implies either an unseen future or confidence. When you read the narrative in Job what else could it be when God says to the devil, “Have you seen my servant Job?” He is obviously proud of Job and says (brags) so. If the word brag offends, some other word will do (praise, etc.)
He has no confidence in us, hence the cross before the foundation of the world. And any good we do now is Christ in us. I guess Bell was attempting to teach that we have significance in Christ, but his terminology is Biblically inaccurate.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Brag woul be terminology inaccurate also.” What is good for the goose is good for the gander.” Really I do not care! Use what ever terms you want that would best translate the text and make it easier for the reader to understand. I am glad you see it in a new light:-)
June 18th, 2007 at 12:08 am
So Ken hijacks the thread. Again.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:51 am
Is it just me, or are there posts missing here? This thread is more confusing than…
Well, I won’t go there.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:04 am
“Thanks”, Ken, for all that you do. Whatever that is.
I’ve often wondered about many things in Job. Most of it seems to be about the problem of pain, or when bad things happen to good people…I’ve not seen a lot of discussion on why what the friends said was wrong.
I never understood why what they said was wrong in general, though blaming Job for personal sin and such seemed an easy mark for being wrong. In general, though, what they say does sound like everything we hear others say when things are going badly. I always assumed the danger was in speaking for God when he was silent on what He was doing. Which, in a sense, is me claiming to be on God’s level. And also, maybe there’s an aspect of giving false hope or some false answer or reason for someone suffering to hold on to, kind of stealing from God as He tries to do his work and draw them in or help them grow.
Which would seem to mean that we Christians would be little comfort in times of pain, which I don’t think should be the case. I don’t know the answer, which should probably the actual response I give to someone when asked, and why I need to be a great comfort in times of need without giving answers and instead being less talk-y and more about prayer and actual help (food, letters, calling to talk in general, etc.).
June 18th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Julie - I often wonder why good things happen to bad people, like me. I understand the bad, it rains on the just and the unjust.
Assigning divine motive is the height of presumptousness. If MacArthur dies God took him. If Bell dies God killed him. What a despicable people we are when we allow our own flesh to have a say.
I read in some book that we were supposed to consider other people’s lives more important than our own. Oh yea, now I remember, it was in a little book we affectionately call the Bible. Nice reading, tough living.
June 18th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Julie,
I was reading through the book of Job again recently (I haven’t completely finished it) and it struck me also that a lot of what Job’s friends said to him sounded theologically right. It goes beyond the common interpretation I always hear about what was wrong with “Job’s comforters†which is that they were saying “you must have done something wrong and that is why you have all this misfortune and troubleâ€
Personally, I think God was angry with Job’s friends because He knew something that we don’t; He knew their hearts and the agenda with which they brought their comfort. Hence God saw beyond their well-meaning and well-crafted theology and logic and they fell woefully short of whatever was required of them at that time. I find a parallel in what the Lord Jesus says about people who will come to him on the last day saying something like “Lord didn’t we do all sorts of stuff in your name, heal, blog , cast out demons, blog, teach, blog etc in your name?†and how He would reply “Depart from me, I never knew youâ€. Very sobering thought indeed, for me.
I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that in this life, bad and horrible things do happen to good people, and very often the wicked prosper. And what should be my response to misfortune in my neighbor? Most of the time, best to keep quiet, like you suggest, and listen (to Job) and play down my own well worked, yet almost always completely uncomforting, conventional religious wisdom. And my response to my own personal misfortune… quiet surrender to God’s sovereignty. Even though He slay me (like Job) or allows some mess up in my life, yet will I trust Him. I mean, where else can I go or as the disciples said “to whom shall we go?â€
I also have a question on Job, if some one will care to answer. Job knew that his Redeemer lives… and Job did long for an advocate, someone to plead his case before God, and against the “Accuserâ€. The Bible does clearly say that we will go through trial and tribulations in the world but now that we have a risen Christ and a High Priest and Advocate at the right Hand of God the Father, does Satan still have the ability to accuse us like he did to Job and is he is still allowed to harm us directly the way he did to Job?
June 18th, 2007 at 10:12 am
David C.,
You give me too much credit.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:34 am
It’s always about us/me/I, whatever.
John 5:
39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, (Jesus Christ)
Why doesn’t someone read the Book of Job in light of Isaiah 53? Scripture exegetes Scripture.
Bad things happen to all, and good things happen to all.
God is sovereign.
However;
Romans 8:
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are CALLED according to his purpose.
We place the emphasis only on the “love” God portion, and not the fact that only those who are called, love God.
We treat the Scriptures as if they don’t make any sense, because it is easier to do so.
Deut 29:29 is clear. What ever is revealed ,i.e. given to us to understand,…… is for us to understand, and teach, and do.
Job’s friends are not the ones spoken of in Matthew 7 i.e. the false prophets, “away from me” etc, as Job interceded for them and God accepted Job’s intercession on their behalf.
Hebrews 7:
25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Jesus prays for those whom He knows, i.e. recognizes publicly as His.
John 10:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
Go back to Job 1. God struck up the conversation with Satan and allowed him to do anything he wanted to but kill Job.
Acts 4:
27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
John 10:
17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Sorry Henry, there is divine motive to everything that happens.
Job testifies of Jesus, His taking upon Himself “human form”, and his subsequent suffering, atoning act as the crucified redeemer, and restoration back to His rightful place as Lord of Lords.
Remember Jesus cried out from the cross,”my God My God, why have you forsaken me?”
Psalm 22:
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
Job 13:
15Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face.
16This will be my salvation,
that the godless shall not come before him.
It is no mistake that in Job 42 God speaks tp Eliphaz directly and tells him to go let the other two know what they need to do. Eliphaz means “god of gold” (Exodus 32)
Whenever we make Yahweh into an acceptable and comfortable (religious) image we are like Job’s friends, who are like the Hebrews at Sinai.
This who God is,,,,,,,,,, or that is what God is….
let’s quit whining about all the bad things that happened to little old me or Job or whomever, and look upon the marred visage of the very creator who suffered by becoming man and dying the worst sort of death that any man could undergo.
Let’s regard the Scriptures for what they are; the Words that speak of the WORD.
The revelation of God’s predestined plan in Christ Jesus.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:37 am
***comment deleted***
Please refrain from the Calvin/Non-Calvin debate on this thread. Thanks :)Â
June 18th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Of course there is divine motive (use) in every good or bad thing that happens, but no man has the insight into those things unless you believe God allows you into His sovereignty, I know you don’t. So…
The man that is the pastor’s friend has a heart attack, it is an attack of the enemy. The man who is a psator’s thorn has a heart attack, God got him. You see, subjective Christianity based on fleshly perseptions.
Please, let all the reformed believers quit acting like they have the corner of believing God is sovereign. God is sovereign, and all the Arminians say “Amen!”. There, lay it to rest.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:18 am
“Please refrain from the Calvin/Non-Calvin debate on this thread. Thanks”
That was the point of my comment which you deleted. Your welcome!
Henry,
“God is sovereign, and all the Arminians say “Amen!â€. There, lay it to rest.”
Also my point. I am not reformed.
Let’s see if this comment suffers the deletion of the hypocrites.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Now Chris, calling people names is not nice. You and Henry cannot seem to talk about issues with each other without getting into this debate. On some level, it is silly for the both of you. One of the complaints I hear often about this site from people on your side of the line is that we only pick on Ken Silva. (BTW Ken, you never did answer me, are you related to Daniel Silva?–one of my favorite authors) so this post is an attempt to generate discussion on Scripture. Tell us what you think they said that was so bad.
Thanks Chris P.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:26 am
“In other words, give me your opinion or take on this whole scenario.”
Re-reading through the original post I see the problem.
It’s the words “opinion and take”
I believe God’s point in Job chapters 38-42 can be summarized thus: “when I want your opinion and/or take, I will ask for it.”
June 18th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Hey Clearly,
I did address the Scriptures in my first comment. However the reality is, no one seems really interested in doing that.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Actually Chris P, I believe you are wrong on two fronts in your last two comments.
1. I agree with you, you did address what you believe the passage to mean. (that’s why that comment is still up there)
2. I’m not asking you for your opinion or take because I believe I am God. I am a fallible human being who believes that we can all learn from conversation and discussion about the text. That’s the point of this post. I’m surely not asking for anyone to go tell God what it means.
That would just be silly. Kind of like bringing every argument back to free will/election.
Smile.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Chris P,
You may well be correct that people are not all that interested in discussing the text, either. Sorry about that. I meant to put that in my previous comment.
June 18th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Comments are now being deleted. And they complain about the old Slice. I just love God’s sense of humor.
June 18th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
So do I Ken, so do I. BTW, are you related to Daniel Silva?
June 18th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
we have always had a no-deleting policy here. Joe, you may want to re-phrase the article. I don’t think Chris has ever allowed anyone to delete comments for content. I think it would be great to keep it that way.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Daniel Who?
June 18th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
All right, Nathan’s correct. Chris L has never deleted comments here and since it is his blog and he’s not available to pitch my case for this post I’ll not delete any other comments. Although I can’t undelete Chris P’s comment. I wasn’t advocating deleting for all comments. I’d just like to to see us stay on track with this thread about the passage.
Ken, Danel Silva. He’a fictional writer. Realy good at it, too.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Clearly
I was not insinuating that you think you are God. I don’t see how you arrived at that conclusion. I am saying that all “dialogue” today is about feelings, and/or thoughts and opinions.
The Lord never asked anyone what they thought.
He did say “this is my beloved Son, listen to Him.”
The problem is everyone has an opinion or take about any given passage. I ask, what does the Word actually say?
You said;
“I’d just like to to see us stay on track with this thread about the passage.”
This thread went off track from the very beginning. BTW I never calld Henry a name.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
No offense anyway. Hey Chris, you say you are not reformed, are you Calvinistic? The reason I ask is because Ken is coy about what he is, not willing to be open about his general theology.
I am totally Arminian and open about it. I have trouble following the distinctions between reformed, Calvinist, and others.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Chris, I thought you were calling me a hypocrite. I am just fascinated by this whole book and I like hearing what others have to say about it.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Rick,
And as you make false judgments about me such as: “Ken is coy about what he is, not willing to be open about his general theology,” you wonder why I consider you a “former” friend? Anyone who wants to know where I stand can easily find out by reading my articles.
Just just what do you hope to accomplish with your fence-dancing here by continually sniping at Calvinism? That hard up for friends Rick? Both Chris P., who is a current friend of mine, and I have told you we are not Calvinists. Man, there’s nothing coy about that.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
OK, enough. Have your little Calvinism/Arminian debate elsewhere. PLEASE.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Ken - then what are you?
June 18th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
OH GOOD GOLLY! We have a ton of threads on this site where what Ken is and what Ken isn’t can be debated hotly. We’ve had this discussion. It’s given little to no fruitful answers. Please Guys, move this to a different thread. Heck, get AIM or Skype and have it out in a personal chat room.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing will offend them. By the way, Joe, the question you asked in your post is subjective because the Lord never revaels His view except to say He was angry. And in dealing with things such as those the tension between free will and sovereignty will always come into play.
I wasn’t being judgmental, I still do not understand some of the different nuances in the “doctrines of grace” field. Most of them are only too happy to decipher their stances for you. I am not sure why God would be angry at people who could only do what they were predestined to do as in Job’s friends.
For the record neither Chris P. or I called each other a name.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Ken, I think you are a cool cat! You are an Internet troll just like a lot of us! Kinda like those mega seeker friendly pastors who wear shorts on Sunday!
Ken Silva ROCKS!
Go Internet Trolls!!!!
June 18th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
For the record, I never said either of you called each other a name. I thought Chris P was calling me a hypocrite.
Here’s what I know for sure. If I post an article about Ken or Ingrid, I’ll get a ton of responses. Some will stay on track, some won’t. If I post about Rob or Erwin McManus I’ll get a ton of responses. If I post something controversial I’ll get a ton of responses but everytime whether it’s me or Matt or Nathan or anyone one else posts something that isn’t all that controversial, we get little to no responses. Or we veer off topic fast into the same discussion that we have on almost every thread. It becomes tiresome.
If you feel I’m wrong, feel free to call me out here.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Joe - after further reading you are correct. Sorry.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
You are also correct about the responses. When I post something about Jesus (remember) I get little or no response. He doesn’t generate much interest these days.
June 18th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
“Please Guys, move this to a different thread…”
Joe Martino and I agree yet again!?!
June 18th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Oh no…it’s happened again! Joe and I agree: “post something controversial…get a ton of responses but everytime [someone] posts something that isn’t all that controversial, we get little to no responses. Or we veer off topic fast into the same discussion that we have on almost every thread. It becomes tiresome.”
Hence why we ended the comments at the old Slice, I didn’t bother having comments at AM, and why CRN was started with simply a feedback section. In all seriousness, we would disagree on most of the various issues facing us today but we have common ground in lamenting the lack of profitable and serious discussion on non-controversial issues.
June 25th, 2007 at 8:44 am
FYI - There should be NO deleting of comments here…
I just got in from being gone several weeks and won’t have much of a chance to weigh in on anything until I’m unburied from my absence and take care of some family issues. I am VERY adamant on the no deletion policy - we can ask for specific types of responses and try to steer threads back on topic, but please please please - no deleting comments!!!
If some were deleted, please re-post if they are available…
June 25th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Chris,
That was completely my fault. I was hoping to keep this thread on track with just Job 42. So I did delete part of a comment. After Nathan pointed out my error, I apologized and we moved on. There hasn’t been any deleting since then.
June 25th, 2007 at 10:46 am
For what it is worth. The no deletion policy of Christ L. is an honorable thing to do. Even with comments at times getting off topic, you have remained solid.
I have much respect for you Chris, your Hebrew teachings (sometimes a little heavy, your love for the Word, and even though our perspectives sometimes differ I love you as a brother.
And this from a fundamental, unprifitable servant who fishes far enough from the abyss so as not to get sucked in!