Mike Corley interviewed Mark Driscoll last week and you can listen to the show here. It’s interesting that, for the most part, Corley and Driscoll agree. What is even more interesting is that CRN and Slice are silent in regards to this interview. Where is Ken and Ingrid?
Here’s part of Steve Camp’s response:
1. The issue with Mark’s scatological speech isn’t so much with cussing; but that it is what Paul refers to as being “unwholesome speech.†His humor even extends to using the Lord as a punch line for his jokes. THAT goes way beyond cussing…
2. Mark has recently shared the platform with T.D. Jakes – a known heretic due to his anti-Trinitarian beliefs. Jakes denies the One Triune God of the Bible and therefore worships a different god. Driscoll knows this and agrees that he is a heretic; but yet, still had no problem sharing the pulpit with him at a pastors conference held in Dallas, TX just a few months ago. There is no justification for this kind of partnership in ministry. Mark never even confronted the issue in his preachment.
Just a few years ago he went and ministered at Robert Schuller’s church as well and spoke glowingly of him and his ministry afterwards. If you have ever heard Michael Horton’s interview with Schuller, you will hear him clearly not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why would Mark knowingly partner with known heretics against the gospel he says he loves so very much?
3. Mark’s PR strategy is to position himself as being Reformed. That really isn’t the case. He is pragmatic to the core (his emerging missionality is nothing more than seeker-sensitivity with an edge–audience driven and contextualized); he is Amyraldian in his view of the atonement; and as MacArthur rightly labeled it – his kind of Christianity is grunge Christianity.
4. Lastly, Here is quote from Driscoll’s recent message at the C3 Conference where he shared the pulpit with heretic T.D. Jakes: “In that moment when God made Him who knew no sin to become sin, that though Jesus was sinless and pure a Lamb without spot or blemish, on Him was laid sin; He became a pedophile, a homosexual, a fornicator, a pervert, a thief, a liar, an alcoholic, a drug addict, He became that. He became the most despicable, ugly, disgusting, accursed thing in all creation—in that moment on the cross. Because He took our place and He became our sin; and He died to pay the penalty for our sins.â€
That is blasphemy my brother and certainly is not representative of biblical Christianity or the Reformed faith.
These are issues that Mark should be required to answer at some point.
My response:
1. Camp is splitting hairs. Driscoll has sworn and has repented. His language is edgy at times but it doesn’t offend me and certainly wouldn’t offend any non believer. Just because it offends someone who has a bad haircut and wears homemade clothes and sings all four verses of the hymns doesn’t mean that it is in fact offensive to God.
2. Driscoll says that he is friends with heretics and wants to see them repent. He preaches anywhere and says that he doesn’t get asked back to speak at conferences because he isn’t afraid to preach the gospel. He doesn’t partner with those he considered heretics.
3. Ask any Arminian, Driscoll is reformed. He believes that many are a part of the elect in Seattle, they just need to hear the gospel.
4. Can someone explain why this is blasphemy?
What are your thoughts?
25 Comments(+Add)
In one sense this all makes me very sad. It’s sad that there are Christians who seem to make it their primary task to find fault in other Christians. It’s sad that pastors have to spend so much time defending themselves against these attacks.
I pretty much agree with your assessment here. I do find the whole thing about being Reformed laughable. What does Driscoll gain by saying he’s Reformed, but he’s really not? Best to not tick off the Reformed police, I suppose.
I don’t get the last point, either.
Uh oh, what do the reformed conclave do with Piper who also had Driscoll speak at his DESIRING GOD conference? And what do they do with all the other major league reformed group who gave him a great reception? Where is their discernment now?
I will tell you what they will do (excepting some like Camp), they will soft peddle his major league compromising while they pick Rick Warren’s bones clean. And the reason Driscoll was invited to SPEAK to their conference? Because he is reformed and that is their idol. They worship their theology and a reformed compromiser is treated with kid gloves compared to the savage and unchristian terminology used for other compromisers without reformed credentials.
When I brought up Piper’s compromise on a reformed blog many months ago I was asked not to comment again because I made mention that he was reformed. It is perplexing that those of the reformed (or whatever) perspective can be so caustic and even petty in their watchman towers but they believe the people who they castigate cannot change because God has not illuminated them.
You talk about spinning your wheels, I believe that anyone can be saved therefore deception has eternal consequences while a Calvinist is preaching to the choir, period. Piper, if he is consistent, should publicly denounce Driscoll and repent of having him spread his compromising into the very reformed henhouse. I e-mailed him months ago with no reply and I don’t hold that against him, I want to make clear I attempted to contact him.
I applaud brother Camp for his consistency. Let us see if the very same merciless verbal assault will come down on Driscoll and Piper as has been rained down upon everyone else.
And BTW, let us keep a sharp lookout for the viscous posts about Corley and his entertaining the compromiser Driscoll. Oh yea, a watched post never boils.
Henry- how is Driscoll a compromiser?
In my comments I am refering to what represents compromising in the reformed neighborhood. The Southern Baptist President (whoever he is) was attacked when he refused to denounce the speaking of T. D. Jakes in a SBC conference. I am attempting to expose a hyspocrisy that treats reformed people differently than others.
Personally I thing Driscoll is crass and a little full of himself. I’m sure the emerging perspective is different, but to many he is more than irreverent.
I am not sure Camp realizes that almost all of the issues he brings up were addressed in the interview.
1. I think everyone needs to let the “cussing pastor†thing go. He clearly explained that it was unfitting for him. Is some of his current talk edgy? It might be to some but not to most, even those with sensitive ears like myself.
2. Regarding Jakes and Schuller, Driscoll stated that he would speak anywhere with anyone to anyone as long as he can share the Gospel.
3. Driscoll never, ever compromises preaching the full text of Scripture. His strategy is not “PR,†its biblical. I have read both of his books and understand the mission of his church and it is real, living, breathing, God-exalting, Gospel witnessing action.
4. “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.†– 2 Cor. 5:21. The verse says, “BE SIN,†not sort of or similar to but all the nasty sin you can think of. It was so awful that Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?”
Darren – the point is that if Rick warren spoke at Schuller’s the reformed crowd would stone him, but because Driscoll claims to be reformed he gets some preferential treatment. And of course Piper is untouchable.
Rick,
I was responding to Matt B.’s question, “What are thoughts?” Presumably the 4 points above the question. I think I submitted my post before I refreshed and missed a couple of yours.
Regarding your point, I think Corely’s interview showed Driscoll to be what he is, not what people think he is. He is not afraid to disagree with those he feels have unbiblical doctrine, but that does not mean he would not have lunch with them.
Regarding hypocrisy, the last thing I want to see is another post from Ken or Ingrid criticizing a Christian brother.
So it isn’t enough to be a Christian.
You have to be a reformed Christian.
I never knew an adjective carried so much weight.
Camp isn’t just splitting hairs; he’s being disingenuous. He was one of the many trumpeters of the “cussing pastor” nickname (I distinctly remember it on Slice 1.0, when his early “contributions” consisted solely of linking to old articles on his own blog). Now all of the sudden, it “isn’t so much with cussing”.
Can’t imagine that anything changed, except that Camp was overwhelmed with evidence showing that Mark’s not the “cussing pastor” and this is as close as we’re gonna get to “I was wrong”.
As I remarked over on Corley’s blog, most (all?) of Driscoll’s critics wouldn’t give Don Miller (who created the nickname) the time of day or consider anything else that he wrote as worthy of even being considered. But “cussing pastor” — they cling to that like it’s Holy Writ.
I do object to the statement that Jesus became a sinner (a pedophile, a pervert, etc. Now how come he doesn’t mention that he became a legalist?).
He certainly bore our sin and that is what Driscoll probably meant, but I think he grossly misstated the concept.
BTW, Matt, not wanting to clutter Corley’s meta too much, I email’d Camp with my own set of questions, including how in the world the quote in #4 is blasphemous, especially in light of 2 Cor 5:21:
For our sake [the Father] made [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I made it clear that if he did not write back, I would chalk it up to busy-ness, not to being timid in talking to me (like he proposed that Driscoll was in talking to him).
Yeah, timidity. That’s the first thing I think of when I think of Mark Driscoll.
Mark also makes the point that Seattle is different from other parts of the country. A commenter on Corley’s blog took issue with this, saying that the gospel is the same where ever you go. I agree that the gospel is the same, however, the method of sharing the gospel is different depending on the region of the country. I come from Massachusetts and I suspect it’s very similar in regards to Christianity as the Northwest part of the country. In the south, one could do a tent revival and get a decent crowd. In Mass, even Christians would consider a tent revival weird. Non believers haven’t even heard of tent revivals. Many nonbelievers here are actually hostile toward Christianity.
Hey, I know this might be off-topic, but does anyone see that picture of Driscoll up top and imagine him saying something like, “oh my, those pants look so faaabulous on you!”.
HA HA! Maybe I should replace the picture.
Driscoll just announced that they are going to do an upcoming sermon series where people can tell him what they want him to preach on. People will go to Mars Hill’s web site, write in their sermon topic, and people then vote. I think he will take the top 5. He already guessed that at one will be on homosexuality and another on alcohol.
Hey,
I know this is completely, 100% off topic, but I have to ask, does anyone here participate in fantasy football? If so, I would like to play with a group of christian guys that I do know know that well. E-mail me @ jboldt73@yahoo.com Thanks and sorry again for being off topic…….
RE Camp’s comment: “Mark’s PR strategy is to position himself as being Reformed. That really isn’t the case. …”
I love it when one of the watchbloggers says something like; “So and so says they believe ‘X’ – but they really believe ‘Y’”… in other words they can’t disagree with what he believes, so they change it to something they can disagree with.
Neil
Does anyone read the woman who is an “abbess” in Seattle. I think her last name is Chapman. She has had some women post some “strange” things on her webpage that have been attributed to Driscoll. I don’t care if he’s against women being in the ministry. I know that is a hot button issue today but does anyone know how he goes about teaching that?
Driscoll is a rigid complementatarian. I myself am complementatarian but not as rigid as Driscoll.
Complementarian is what I meant.
Yeah, but I’ve read on her blog (and given what I know about how easy targets these men can be for anybody with an internet connection I want to be careful to say this is just something I have filed away) that he’ll say a man’s a coward if his wife isn’t home but out working, etc.
Matt, I know what he believes, I’m curious if anyone has actually heard him teach it?
He has a sermon called Under Authority Like Jesus
http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/060723_1Cor_25_16k.mp3
David C,
What do you think the phrase means then when Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:21
?
Neil, let’s simplify this. Statements like Camp’s “Mark’s PR strategy…” and such are just longhand for “Mark’s a bald-faced liar”. It’s just more clever to say it with lots of words, and sounds more Christian-ese than calling a brother a liar.
Brendt,
Agreed – I just find it comical that they must first say “That’s not what he believes…what he really believes is…” then attack.
Neil