Leaving a Church
**UPDATE**
Ingrid did not write this article, a concerned slice reader did. Due to using ” ” within a quotation (not ‘ ‘), I thought that the readers question ended after the first paragraph. My apologies to Ingrid for any harm done. The issues addressed still stands. This person is basically leaving their church because of music style (that is what they devoted most of their ranting to). They walked out when Point of Grace performed at their church. I wonder if they would have the same reaction if the Gather Singers came and performed. Here is my original article:
Ingrid recently wrote an article on when to leave a church. She explained that “Over the past year or so I have noticed subtle uncomfortable changes taking place at our church and in how we “have churchâ€. Things I never dreamed would ever darken our doors are now welcomed and endorsed.†What evils could have plagued her community of faith.
Worship was affected for one (go figure). However she failed to show how worship, in the true sense of the word, was changing in her church. She simply talked about how contemporary Christian music was entering into the services and how a list of Christian artists were invited to perform at certain events. Point of Grace even performed during a service (isert gasp here)
The only signs that this church was going apostate was that “at this church Benny Hinn is openly endorsed from the pulpit as well as the Crouches of TBN. There is a huge picture of the pastor and Mr. Crouch (together) in one of the church’s main hallways.†We are given no information on how Benny Hinn is supported. The pastor could have simply made a positive reference to him for all we know.
The comments at the end of the article saddened me the most. People leaving their churches left and right to go find communities that better suited their needs. If the emerging church supposedly makes churches more suited for non-believers, the people that read slice desire churches that simply make them feel as comfortable as possible.
I will give Ingrid this… she is asking the hard question of when leaving a church is acceptable. And, she has not rushed to leaving her community of faith, even when she has disagreed with orthopraxy there. However, the article confirms that opponents of the emerging church are as just concerned with music style and methodology as we are.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
18 Comments(+Add)
It sounds like she thinks her pastor is in sin… maybe Ken and Ingrid can write an article on how Ingrid’s church is going apostate and try to publicly call him to repentance for accepting false teachers like Hinn and Crouch…
Then Ingrid can write an article on how she set her pastor straight…
It sounds like Ingrid is part of the word of faith movement and can’t even see it… some discernment… I would have hit the door the minute I saw the picture she described…
Blessings,
iggy
Large “posters” of pastors on the wall — even without Hinn — would’ve been a “where’s the nearest exit?” moment for me. With Hinn on the poster — I would have RUN for the exit, instead of merely walking.
The funny thing is that ingrid writes this about her church/pastor:
“I attend a sizable church in the Midwest that is known nationally but I won’t mention its name or the pastor.”
The hypocritical thing is that she has no problem about disclosing the names of churches and pastors that she remotely disagrees with all the time. Now that it is in her backyard, she decides to lay off the public name calling. It goes to show my theory all along. It’s real easy to throw stones via an impersonal blog. When it is face to face, the whole tone changes.
Correction: The whole post is by a “Slice reader,” not Ingrid herself.
Correction: The whole post is by a “Slice reader,†not Ingrid herself.
Yes, I’m sure Ingrid has sufficiently vetted her church so that something like this has a very small likelihood of happening without her knowing way ahead of time.
maybe this is not totally on point, and some of this will be all over the map, but…
I don’t think the EC is a “style” issue primarily. I think it is wrongly understood as a “style” or “pragmatic” issue largely because the first voices spoke of “practices” and described themselves as “practitioners”…but the EC is not about pushing for “video” in the sanctuary (i.e. the 21st century version of the 20th’s debate over drums and guitars.)
It’s about contextualization…which will have implications for a styles, etc. but is never means that there is a discernible approach to worship that can be patterned after unless you tie your wagon to a particular person or church.
EC gets criticized for being “smells and bells”, but most of the “EC” communities that I’ve encountered look very different from church to church.
True, some churches see what a place of notoriety is doing and copy them…but in the long run that has mixed results.
The only discernable pattern of worship in the EC is THEORETICAL. What that means is most, if not all, ECish gatherings are committed to living as church (which is a fuller understanding of worship) in such a way that expresses the life of Jesus in them in their particular context. It also means a tendency to move away from any christendom model of church because it can too easily keep people from really connecting as the Body and living as the Body together (not always, but it happens)…mega-churches have their place, but they are inherently representative of Christendom. (I say this having worked at them in the past. I see their value.)
That’s why the best research done on the EC–the Gibbs and Bolger book that reports on 2 plus years of actual academic research via travel, first hand observation, etc.–would not identify churches like Mosaic, Mars Hill, etc. as “emerging”. Which just makes the whole bash on Erwin, Rob, Rick, et. al even more silly.
They may have emerging sympathies, tendencies, etc. but by virtue of their commitment to structures that are basically updated versions of the christendom model of doing church the non-battle between the “discerning” and these guys is many times more about discerning folk just not personally liking some “style” issues, or demanding linguistic conformity on how to say things. To their credit they’ve drawn the line and not gone KJV-only, but I wonder if this is a compromise of some sorts in the eyes of their parents, etc? =)
If it is, then that would explain all the talk about “emerging rebellion”…they’re just mad we won’t do what they want. Never mind that they have no standing to make demands of people they don’t know or have bothered to really understand, despite their claims of research. I might grant they have read a lot of books by a couple authors, but that really means nothing for the whole of the EC. The only people I know who are “Brian McLaren disciples” are folks who just want to jump on any new hip train…the relationships I have within the EC have never been comprised of people concerned about being hip and trendy–they are only focused on proclaiming the gospel in word AND deed…the last part being sadly atrophied in the consumerist and separatist camps of xianity.
If we take what Gibbs and Bolger write as accurate, we could say that people within Mosaic, etc. congregations may be sympathetic to or even supportive of and self-identify as “emerging”, but the larger framework of structure is really more “pragmatic” Gen-X than Emerging….
This is not a bad thing…it just makes things more confusing for people working hard in their armchairs without all the information.
I’ve never heard anyone sufficiently explain why a pastor/church can preach the Gospel, proclaim our need for a savior from sin, but because they use current musical forms or contemporary styles of corporate practices that that is bad…
It just seems like idolatry of personal preferences by folks who strangely feel hurt or damaged by churches they don’t even attend. When you come from a stream of faith that places a high value on control it’s understandable to feel threatened by what is different. When that stream of faith teaches a separatist paranoia about the world, instead of a Gospel perspective of Victory is already won in the cross, then it’s understandable to resent other churches for not being like you.
Any church that even endures Benny Hinn, much less has a picture of him on their wall, has had a problem for a long time. Also the lady must be a baby Christian insomuch as she is just now recognizing this.
Giving this specific information about a church without giving its name borders on gossip. These are the areas that I would agree need to be made public, after all, the church displays the picture in public.
And to you guys who thought that was Ingrid’s church, well, you might be sued for slander. Ingrid attends a liturgical church so the next time you think that she would darken the dorrstep of an Arminian, free worship gathering feel free to flog yourselves!
The article was poorly written and it was hard to figure out which part was the question and which part was the commentary.
very good point another Nathan! I am writing an article this summer called”It’s more than just a band”. It really is SO much more than a style
Nathan, can you edit the post to reflect the fact that Ingrid didn’t write the article?
The style argument is one of the most frustrating one can have. There is no “ordained” or “blessed” style and there certainly isn’t any scripture to back up otherwise. To assume that 17th century worship is the standard for all churches for all time is ludicrous.
nathan,
Shouldn’t you apologize to Ingrid for your lack of attention to detail and your rush to slam her?
Rick,
She can sue me… so can Ken… and especially Dywana Litz…
Yet,
I will ay this….
Sorry Ingrid, for not understanding your poorly written article that was gossiping about another “well known church” that you won’t name, that has a big picture of the pastor and B Hinn on it’s walls. Sorry to misrepresent your gossip in such a fashion…
So how I just don’t “feel” that was as cleansing as it was soupposed to be… apologizing to someone for their “gossip” seems a bit hollow… and sickening.
I think the biggest issue of “style” is around “worship”… If the style brings one into the presence of the Lord, then inspires you to go out and love and serve others in Jesus Name… that is worship..
If it just sucks you in and makes you angry and mean… and want to lash out at those “sinners”… that is not worship nor of God… it is not of Grace or Jesus as Jesus is full of Grace and Truth…
Blessings,
iggy
Ken,
done.
“No, I didn’t attend a single event. Point of Grace “performed†during one of our Sunday services but I walked out half way through the first song. Isn’t this error?”
Sounds like the Slice reader that wrote the article is looking for a man-centered church that has music she likes.
Now, I think the real issue is, if Ingrid see this as also “error” yet seems to think it is ok to associate with someone that “rocks out to the goo goo dolls”, it seems a bit hypocritical to me. Not that the goo goo dolls are that bad… but I think Sonic Flood or barlow girls… or even “yawn” Point of Grace… are much better if one deems “Christian” seperation from those evil and vile God hated sinners out there…
Just a thought…
iggy
Ken, you of all people lecturing others about one’s “rush to slam”, “apologize,” and “attention to detail”?
Off to read “Perils of narcissism” by Donald Trump.
Ken calling for an apology.
My goodness.
It’s either a start, or the end.
I just noticed that the title of the Slice post is: Know when to walk away, know when to run.
The chorus lyrics to the Kenny Roger’s song “The Gambler” are, I’ve often said, fully of great advice.
I just never expected them at Slice.
…and once again, when a fault that is legitimate is pointed out – those posting on this site respond with a “mia culpa” and an apology…
[take not those who contend "we" are just as bad as "them" in our posting]