Well, it seems that Ingrid’s article decrying the tactics of watchbloggers which Joe wrote about here, and Scott covered over at Verum Serum was pulled. Fortunately, some of us have come to expect such attempts to say and un-say things over at Slice/CRN (like, um, pulling down the entire site and deleting it…)

Here, via internet not-so-wayback technology is the text of Ingrid’s article. Look for more commentary to come later…

[Update: Ingrid has threatened us with a lawsuit because she doesn't want this article seen. As such, and to be safe withing copyright law, I am only quoting key parts of the article below. Should anyone want a full copy of what was here, check out the internet way-back machine.]

Here are selected quotes of interest from the article:

There is a campaign of destruction underway in the church. There are lies being passed off as truth; there is slander and gossip and the carnage that is being caused is causing long-term harm to the cause of the Gospel of Christ. No, I’m not talking about attacks from emergent church followers or outraged Purpose Driven disciples. I’m talking about the seamy underbelly of what goes on in the name of “discernment ministry.” I have been in ministry since 1988 and I can say with confidence that the enemy of Jesus Christ has to do very little. The church is really, really good at destroying itself.


What is most disturbing in this case is the gossip and false information that has been carried by these “discernment” folks. One researcher who sought to reconcile with me and who apologized for helping to spread false information was warned ahead of time to “be careful” if he talked to me. [...] Worse still, these individuals are publishing columns and links to columns, like the one on [Another blog], blasting [a friend] for “promoting” contemplative. These people have been harassing [this man] for months, demanding that he conduct his decency organization like their own “discernment” ministries. They have deliberately sought to find what evil they can on the American Family Association secular online bookstore link that they use for the sale of their own books. The only people finding New Age and contemplative books on [his] site are the ones spending their time looking for them: [Watchbloggers A, B and C]].

This is the closest thing to a nasty personal vendetta, couched in pious language, I have seen recently. [Watchblogger A's] language isn’t all that pious, actually, as he calls [my friend] a hypocrite and derisively refers to his friendship with [another friend] in his latest column. [Watchblogger A] and [Watchblogger B] are not in a position of authority to demand that [my friend] carry out his organization’s work according to [Watchblogger A's] and [Watchblogger B's] own standards. We answer to the Lord for our own ministries, not [Watchblogger A] and [Watchblogger B].

Is Christianity just a matter of holding right positions, or should it impact how we relate to each other as believers? Are the commands of Scripture telling us to be tender-hearted and forgiving of one another less important than the verses about heresy and false teaching? Is gossip and slander okay if it is conducted by those knee deep in research on contemplative spirituality? If some New Agers have more personal peace and treat people more kindly than born-again Christians, doesn’t it say something about the content of our hearts? We can rant and rave about contemplative spirituality, meditation, breath prayers and yoga until we’re blue in the face, but if we can’t reconcile with fellow believers who believe the same things and would prefer to publicly find fault and attack them because they don’t do everything the way we do, we have nothing to share with the world. We become frauds.


When soldiers begin to turn and shoot their own, combat fatigue has set in. No general would long keep soldiers like this in the field. Speaking from my own experience, combat fatigue is a huge menace in this job. I have had to cut back because of my own dangerous level of fatigue recently. How long the Lord will keep any of us in the field if these issues are not resolved, is questionable. Like the church at Ephesus in the book of Revelation, we can become very good at discerning error from truth, but when we’ve lost our first love for the Lord Jesus, it starts showing in our relationships. The Lord’s words warn us that he will put our lampstands out completely if we don’t repent. It’s a wake up call for all of us involved in putting out this information.

There you go!



Ingrid’s reason for taking down the post from her site was because it had hurt some relationships and she did not want those wounds reopened.  In this spirit, while keeping with our own policy to not delete articles, I have excerpted the article above while redacting the names from it.  My reason for posting this article was because of the commentary on the attitude and behavior of watchbloggers and the irony of its authorship, with no interest of the names of those specifically involved.  Per Ingrid’s wishes, I do not wish to open old wounds, so the names of the individuals do not appear here…

–Chris L 12/28/07

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This entry was posted on Saturday, January 27th, 2007 at 9:12 am and is filed under Hall of Fame, Hypocrisy, Ingrid, ODM Policies, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, Original Articles, Site Revamp. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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14 Comments(+Add)

1   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.typepad.com
January 27th, 2007 at 10:07 am

My wife and I were talking about how she does this time and time again–taking down post that would be difficult to explain. What is really ironic is she slams big name guys for doing it. Just doesn’t make sense.

2   Alan    
January 27th, 2007 at 10:20 am

I think a question that needs to be asked for Ingrid is if the roles were reversed, if she was against the AFA and Paul Proctor was writing for Brannon, would she do the same thing?

3   Russ N.    http://russ-ramblings.blogspot.com
January 27th, 2007 at 10:21 am

“do as I say not as I do” comes to mind. To me it shows the incredible human effort being put into appearances of spirituality or appearances of perfection instead of being real.

At least update the posting or *cough* admit you were wrong or could have said things differently. I’m guessing that critics of their tactics would take that in stride and offer forgiveness – I would.

4   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
January 27th, 2007 at 11:12 am

Several times the folks at Slice have talked about Rick Warren pulling something off of a website because it might be embarrassing or contradicting. I believe they called it the Purpose Driven Spin machine. Is that what we have here? It may be that Ingrid felt the article did not do anyone any good and pulled it. Maybe they should not be so critical when others feel like they need to pull something off of their website because it does not reflect the view they want to portray.

Regarding the crux of her now gone post, I was glad when she pulled Paul Proctor as one of her contributors on Slice. His temperament in response to commenters was pretty tough. The Lighthouse Trails group has been linked to many times on Slice but it does not surprise me that they have parted views. Lighthouse is famous for making vast lists of people associated with so and so with just a hint of evidence. Could it be that Slice is experiencing taste of their own medicine?

Discernment ministries have their place, but many seem to be so extreme. I agree with Ingrid and Ken many more times than they think I do but in their zeal they seem to go after people a little too harshly.

5   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 28th, 2007 at 1:21 am

I find it funny that Paul Proctor has turned on Ingrid… and Ingrid turns on Paul and on and on.. they seem to eat their own don’t they…

It seems that “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious:…hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy…” Gal 5:20 – 21) do ring true with this crew…

(I am not saying they are not saved… just very caught up in the power structure to this fallen world and blind to it)

Again, also to lambaste others as Ingrid does and calling other hypocrites over posting “anonymous” or ” posting and retracting”…. it all seems so Roman 2ish…

So, maybe in time they will eat their own and nothing will be heard from them…. I have gone about 6 days without even going to CRN… and I am even less interested to go now…

I just hope sometime soon Ingrid will begin to see the harm she is doing. I don’t care if she calls out a true and blue Gnostic pushing “emerging churchite” as long as it is done in a way that the person is given a chance to change… There are some things we do need to stand against… but even if I disagree with things like Church Growth movement, I see that God can still use it… and has…


6   nathan    
January 31st, 2007 at 1:55 am

Hey guys,
I am actually a part of Mosaic in Los Angles with Erwin McManus. These guys’ wittings are incredibly painful to read. Non believers have let us know they have actually decided to not come to church because of what they have read from these guys’ websites. I am so hurt right now and am lost in what to do with this. Erwin and Rob are two of the most biblical people I know… and have such a passion for people. Is there anything we can do about this? I am new, so I might have already missed alot about this.

7   Kathi    http://iamhealed.net
July 13th, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Uh-huh. I’m not surprised to hear of this (especially having conversed at great length with one of the principals mentioned, a ways back). I’ve noted a trend over the last couple of years towards “apologists” and “discernment ministries” becoming less concerned with PROMOTING Biblical truth, and more concerned with blasting everyone within range. As my friend Don says – they’re reduced to a “Me and thee (are saved) – and I’m not so sure about thee”…


8   Ingrid    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
December 28th, 2007 at 7:33 pm

This article was deleted because it caused some unintentional hurt, and I felt the Lord would have me delete it a year ago. What gives you the right to resurrect what Jesus has put under the blood? Secondly, you have never asked permission to take my copyrighted material and post it, and I am requesting that you take this down. Your apology did not last long, Chris, did it?

9   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 28th, 2007 at 7:40 pm


Please check the date on this article – it is from January 27, 2007…

If you would like me to redact certain names from it, I will, but per our own policy, I can’t pull it down. (Since it has been deleted from the original site, it would fall under the domain of “out of print works” as far as copyright law is concerned…)

My apology still stands, as it came 10-11 months after this was published…

10   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 28th, 2007 at 7:42 pm

“This article was deleted because it caused some unintentional hurt”

As opposed to the intentional hurt which is OK. Ingrid, to bring Jesus’ blood into this is very objectionable and wrong. People should be able to confront without bringing the sacred into the profane.

A question:

Is that which we print on our blog copyrighted or in public domain?

11   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 28th, 2007 at 7:48 pm


Copyright law as it pertains to blogs tends to only cover publish-for-pay works, but if you give proper credit to the source and the source article was originally in the public domain, you have the right to liberally quote the original work. So – I can’t quote major portions of John Grisham’s latest work (which requires a purchase to read), but if he published a chapter of it on his blog and then deleted it later, I could still publish the deleted chapter, as it was once public domain…

For images, copyright law is a bit stronger, as the original copyright holder has exclusive right to the images unless released as ‘public domain’ – parodies using the images are protected if the copyright holder is given appropriate credit, though some cinema/publishing houses have pushed for additional protection.

12   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 28th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

It cracks me up when people think that a blog is copyrighted material. Check the laws people. There pretty easy to find. Nothing you put up on a blog cannot be used elsewhere as long as it is cited. We can cut and paste an entire article from your site if we want as long as we cite you. We can’t take credit for it.

13   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
December 28th, 2007 at 8:27 pm

By the by Ingrid, if you would ever want to answer my question about what you are saying in regards to Mars Hill Seattle not being part of the true church of Christ, I will be happpy to resume our conversation.

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 28th, 2007 at 8:28 pm

The blood of Jesus card is so…so self righteous. And then to publicly question Chris’s apology is again self righteous and self serving. Wouldn’t a private e-mail request be more appropriate?

And if Chris wouldn’t take it down maybe just forgive the person and chalk it up as a major persecution. Sometimes this blog stuff brings out the best in people (satire made for obvious effect).

3 Trackbacks/Pings

  1. The Boars Head Tavern » Blog Archive » Saturday Morning Coffee    Jan 27 2007 / 10am:

    [...] Verum Serum says that Ingrid has removed her response to Paul Proctor, etc. But it lives anyway! [...]

  2. CRN.Info and Analysis    Jan 27 2007 / 1pm:

    [...] Recent Comments Darren Sapp on Ingrid’s 1/26/07 “Missing” Article on Watchblogging [...]

  3. theliberalchristian.net » Ingrid calls the Kettle Black    Jan 28 2007 / 10am:

    [...] Ingrid’s rant here at CRN.com is well amazing. I really wish she would look at a mirror when she reads it. [...]